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Sorry, We're Not Living in Orwell's "1984"


Clarakore

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Today “Nineteen Eighty-Four” seems more historical than futuristic; an imagining of what England might have looked like if a totalitarian regime had triumphed. So many of the novel’s details — the food rationings, the razor shortages, the smell of boiled cabbage — speak to its time, while the nature of the party is overtly Stalinist (purges, secret police, big mustaches). As D. J. Taylor notes in his biography of Orwell, “the appeal – and the resonance – of ‘Nineteen Eighty-Four’ to many of its original readers stemmed from the fact that it depicted a world that, by and large, they already knew.”

What few comparisons one might draw between the world of “Ingsoc” and contemporary America would have to be so cripplingly superficial as to be practically useless. Surveillance of citizens in “Nineteen Eighty-Four” is done so overtly that posters reminding you of the fact are displayed everywhere, whereas the NSA’s en masse mining of metadata is performed in such secrecy that even members of Congress admit to being baffled by it. Nor is there anything “Orwellian” about the nickname Boundless Informant, as Megan Garber claims. If anything, the name is embarrassingly straightforward. (Was that really the best they could do?)

*snip*

It’s the same with surveillance. In its contemporary form, it is far more insidious; with no overarching single-party State, culpability is extended to the various companies and corporations that ordinary citizens, no doubt foolishly, entrust with heaps of private information. Whatever else the NSA leaks can tell us about government surveillance, we need to consider the question of how much independence we are willing to relinquish in order to be plugged in all the time. George Packer, writing on the New Yorker’s website, rightly said that “it’s sinister when Big Brother is watching you, but it’s even more sinister when Big Brother is you, sharing.”

What everybody gets wrong about Orwell

Edited by The world needs you
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THe NSA is watching ... and approves ...

~

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The world looks nothing like Orwell envisioned it.

majxp3.png

Please keep in mind the world is more than just America/Canada and the UK.

So many societies today, most in fact, are no where near 1984 and perhaps have other problems as to not even have the luxury of making such comparisons.

On the other hand they just might not have less problems and just disagree with comparing reality to fiction.


The world of 1984 also had only one political party. Those who keep complaining about are two-party system yet claim we are 1984 are so far from the truth...

Are you kidding me? The specific envisioned topographic zones are just about the least relevant and are probably the last thing Orwell thought would become reality exactly as is painted in his prophetic novel. Its more about the concept of Unions, the loss of sovereignty of individual states - the end of nations, not the specific borders / zones those unions occupy. Come on.

You go on to state that we are not at all like 1984 because we do not have one, but a two party system?! Seriously? Ignoring the rather obvious notion this two party system is in fact one at the end of the day, you would seriously argue this?

If 'one' cannot discern the unequivocal parallels that are overly evident between present trends and that which can be found in the mentioned novel, I dont think any level of discussion can change that.

Personally concluding that such a person would be, quite literally, blindfolded.

Edited by Phaeton80
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Are you kidding me? The specific envisioned topographic zones are just about the least relevant and are probably the last thing Orwell thought would become reality exactly as is painted in his prophetic novel. Its more about the concept of Unions, the loss of sovereignty of individual states - the end of nations, not the specific borders / zones those unions occupy. Come on.

You go on to state that we are not at all like 1984 because we do not have one, but a two party system?! Seriously? Ignoring the rather obvious notion this two party system is in fact one at the end of the day, you would seriously argue this?

If 'one' cannot discern the unequivocal parallels that are overly evident between present trends and that which can be found in the mentioned novel, I dont think any level of discussion can change that.

Personally concluding that such a person would be, quite literally, blindfolded.

I live in a one-party state and think I am freer and less subject to propaganda than Americans, most especially if you include advertising.

That said, I don't see where what you assert is true at all. You say there are "unequivocal parallels" between present trends and those of the novel. You have set yourself a high target there -- "unequivocal." No possibility of equivocation. Anyway, if for no other reason than the entertainment value, I would like to see an attempt at such a thing

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According to Congress CIA spying on Americans IS NOT ILLEGAL.

"In 1947, when Congress voted to create the CIA as part of the National Security Act, there was great concern about whether the CIA could operate in the United States and against Americans."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/NSA/CIA_Home_LS.html

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I live in a one-party state and think I am freer and less subject to propaganda than Americans, most especially if you include advertising.

That said, I don't see where what you assert is true at all. You say there are "unequivocal parallels" between present trends and those of the novel. You have set yourself a high target there -- "unequivocal." No possibility of equivocation. Anyway, if for no other reason than the entertainment value, I would like to see an attempt at such a thing

Lets have a go then shall we?

- structural phasing out of individual nation's sovereignty;

- structural phasing in of collectivism, unionisation of homogenic states / zones;

- continuous centralisation of power, assets;

- continuous underminement of the 'family unit';

- invasive / illegal actions against people's / citizens privacy by the ruling body;

- further intwinement of corporation & state / union;

- continuous underminement of the rights & freedoms of the people / citizens in favor of 'security' (swapping freedom for security by way of fear);

- assasinations of citizens without any form of judicial trial and or hearing;

- rising application of 'newspeak';

- 'telescreens' in every room,all public and private places;

- 'peace through war';

- growing class segregation;

- ever growing taxation while governed by self enriching corrupt politicians;

- continuous movement towards world institutions, world currency, the globalisation mindset;

- etc etc.

Edited by Phaeton80
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And what is the point of this thread? To convince us... lie to us , that we're *not* going there? Pfff, sorry, but it seems only the OP wants to believe it so. Signs are everywhere and you'd need to be far removed from reality to claim such.

Edited by SolarPlexus
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Lets have a go then shall we?

- structural phasing out of individual nation's sovereignty;

- structural phasing in of collectivism, unionisation of homogenic states / zones;

- continuous centralisation of power, assets;

- continuous underminement of the 'family unit';

- invasive / illegal actions against people's / citizens privacy by the ruling body;

- further intwinement of corporation & state / union;

- continuous underminement of the rights & freedoms of the people / citizens in favor of 'security' (swapping freedom for security by way of fear);

- assasinations of citizens without any form of judicial trial and or hearing;

- rising application of 'newspeak';

- 'telescreens' in every room,all public and private places;

- 'peace through war';

- growing class segregation;

- ever growing taxation while governed by self enriching corrupt politicians;

- continuous movement towards world institutions, world currency, the globalisation mindset;

- etc etc.

Sheesh. You ignored the word "unequivocal." Your tests are as equivocal as a Delphic oracle. Some of them are even false. Disqualified
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he is right we are not in Orwell's 1984, what we have now is a lot worst, Orwell could not have imagined what we have now.

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Prophesies of doom are characteristic of a decaying civilization.

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Lets have a go then shall we?

- structural phasing out of individual nation's sovereignty;

- structural phasing in of collectivism, unionisation of homogenic states / zones;

- continuous centralisation of power, assets;

- continuous underminement of the 'family unit';

- invasive / illegal actions against people's / citizens privacy by the ruling body;

- further intwinement of corporation & state / union;

- continuous underminement of the rights & freedoms of the people / citizens in favor of 'security' (swapping freedom for security by way of fear);

- assasinations of citizens without any form of judicial trial and or hearing;

- rising application of 'newspeak';

- 'telescreens' in every room,all public and private places;

- 'peace through war';

- growing class segregation;

- ever growing taxation while governed by self enriching corrupt politicians;

- continuous movement towards world institutions, world currency, the globalisation mindset;

- etc etc.

Sheesh. You ignored the word "unequivocal." Your tests are as equivocal as a Delphic oracle. Some of them are even false. Disqualified

BS. Things he speaks of are in plain sight for everyone to see. One must be robbed of sight...

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Prophesies of doom are characteristic of a decaying civilization.

Not really...

Some group....somewhere...all through time have been anticipating the end...from the people of Europe during the Dark Ages to the age of the plague to the Millerites in 19th century to the two world wars...many of the societies rose to prosperity afterward....not collapse...

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nevermind

Edited by SolarPlexus
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*our two-party system

The varying views of what this work of fiction meant, especially as put forth by you and questionmark, reveal exposure and thinking above the ordinary.

Those views are most interesting especially in their deviation from the overused cliche of proclaiming it was a prophetic work of mystical proportions (just as everyone can claim Nostradamus meant this or that regardless of the era they are in) or a cautionary tale.

It is as if now that society is turning away from religious texts they have a void to fill and do so through the canonization of others works of literature. It is near religious for some it seems.

Now, World, please give the Devil his/her due: I refer to my first post (#14) in this thread, in which I noted the multi-referential nature of good fiction (including Orwell's), making universal points that can be applied to different places and times. Jeremiah made a similar statement (#23), as have others.

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Sheesh. You ignored the word "unequivocal." Your tests are as equivocal as a Delphic oracle. Some of them are even false. Disqualified

You seem to be very quick to label my points as 'equivocal as a Delphic oracle', yet bring nothing to to table to actually base your statement. Which makes it of a certain 'equivocal' quality, uncertain significance.

"Disqualified!"

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You seem to be very quick to label my points as 'equivocal as a Delphic oracle', yet bring nothing to to table to actually base your statement. Which makes it of a certain 'equivocal' quality, uncertain significance.

"Disqualified!"

Why should I?. You made the impossible claim. One thing I might suggest; if you want to persuade, keep your claims within sensible bounds.
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I don't think it matters what the original theme was if the novel wasn't so apt to modern society then it wouldn't deserve the attention it gets, or has gotten, its one that should be moved from the science fiction section to non fiction.

The main themes of the book are Political Geography, War, Nationalism, Revolution, Censorship, Surveillance I personally feel the book picks up on communism due to it being one of the main fears of the time...war with Russia, but Orwell was in fact using the communist theme as a front, bash communism at a time when it was a national pastime seems to be a good idea if you want your work to be noticed, but whether intended or not his insights were visionary, much like how people are now thinking Enoch Powell's river of blood speech was, from racist to visionary in 50yrs.

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Prophesies of doom are characteristic of a decaying civilization.

Not only, yes, there where people look too much at their dreams they turn like their shadows (to cite an old Khmer saying). It is also a tool to keep people in line, especially for the religious establishment.

Fear is the best tool dictator like establishments have to control people... and most are dumb enough to fall for it...time after time...

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Let's end this thread appropriately:

"He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."

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The debate does not end. Regarding the level of security we require that debate is ongoing.

We are all involved in that nationally and those wishing to drop out of the debate are free to do so.

Unsure what role non-Americans have in the debate specifically over the role of the NSA but if anything it is a minor one.

The separate issue of legality and constitutionality will be decided by our courts, our American courts. Non-Americans have no say in that, at all, but they do have their own societies and systems of government to decide for themselves and how much if they will at all cooperate with us.

Where did I mention anything about the USA? Youre posting maps claiming we don't know that the world stretches beyond the USA and Canada, yet you make such an America-centric statement. We have rights in Canada too, so does most of the western world. My ancestors worked and fought for those rights, and we're not just gonna relinquish them. The NSA has been spying on more countries than just America, they have been spying on Canadians too and exchanging information with our filth government too. We do not consent to a foreign nation spying on us (or our own government). Yes, the debate very much does end where I previously stated it does. If you hate the rule of law and human rights, maybe you should move to a failed state like Somalia. I didn't realize civil liberties were limited to Americans. Like once before, you discriminate and brush off arguments based on someone's national origins.

And as somebody already pointed out (as well as myself in our PMs), you base your world view off FEAR. Some of us would rather be scared, free and independent, as opposed to scared, enslaved and dependant on the corrupt lawless mafia that our governments have become.

Edited by Glorfindel
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I'm safe. I don't watch TV, own an iPad or laptop, nor a cellphone.

I'm the invisible man!

CCTV begs to differ. I assume that you drive. It seems like there are surveillance cameras on most main roads and streets. Orwell's home holds the world record for the number of them.

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The IRS knows where you live...where you work...and now they will know about your Medical History.

But their is much more to the story: In 1984, you couldn't really trust anyone...ANYONE...even those you thought you could trust, you couldn't...and so, people turned a deaf, 'whatever' ear to everything. Completely believed whatever anyone said...todays newspapers headlines were the exact opposite of yesterdays...didn't matter...the truth is of the moment.

In North East Texas we have watering restrictions. If you water on the wrong day...someone will turn you in to the authorities...I kid you not!

It's like living in the Twilight Zone...people will call the authorities and tell on you for 'inappropriate watering behaviour'.

We are a spinning top which has lost it's centrifical force...it is only a matter of time until it all skids across the floor and crashes into the wall.

Hope to god you have some food somewhere to eat for a couple of months...or years.

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CCTV begs to differ. I assume that you drive. It seems like there are surveillance cameras on most main roads and streets. Orwell's home holds the world record for the number of them.

Hence the 72 CCtv cameras on 911 of the pentagon confiscated with nothing on them but what they want you to see. 1 3 frame clip. CCTV does not save lives as proven however a phone cam is exposing police brutality that has exsisted for years. Hence a cop not liking this and not knowing its very legal to video them comiting a crime.

Edited by The Silver Thong
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The IRS knows where you live...where you work...and now they will know about your Medical History.

But their is much more to the story: In 1984, you couldn't really trust anyone...ANYONE...even those you thought you could trust, you couldn't...and so, people turned a deaf, 'whatever' ear to everything. Completely believed whatever anyone said...todays newspapers headlines were the exact opposite of yesterdays...didn't matter...the truth is of the moment.

In North East Texas we have watering restrictions. If you water on the wrong day...someone will turn you in to the authorities...I kid you not!

It's like living in the Twilight Zone...people will call the authorities and tell on you for 'inappropriate watering behaviour'.

We are a spinning top which has lost it's centrifical force...it is only a matter of time until it all skids across the floor and crashes into the wall.

Hope to god you have some food somewhere to eat for a couple of months...or years.

Its to the point never talk politics as we will be watching. The US is on the verge of..........

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CCTV begs to differ. I assume that you drive. It seems like there are surveillance cameras on most main roads and streets. Orwell's home holds the world record for the number of them.

I live in a town of about 350, more than an hour from our doctors and banks. There's about a half dozen stop signs in town.

I heard that we recently got security cameras at the General Store though. Seriously! :) Addendum: Just to maintain their insurance, the people who bought the store, don't live in the back anymore.

Edit: I Am!, the Invisible Man.

Edited by Likely Guy
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