The Truth About Revelation 14:12

[+Link of Hyrule]

Well, what I have to say is that the more and more modern is a translation of the Bible made, the more are the temptations to fit in the religious preconceived notions of the translator. And when you show your preference for modern translations in spite of ancient ones, it only conveys that you don't care for the originals. Can you realize the danger here? As the Tanach is concerned I can never bring to you a testimony from the originals in Hebrews because you will reject it on the basis of being too ancient. The Christian faction of "Messianic Judaism" is translating a super modern Bible where every reference to Jesus in their opinion is made to be a nominal reference. Imagine the boom that this method will cause in future generations that never had any contact with older translations?

And the fact that the translators are not all Christian makes no nevermind to you? I don't accept a Bible simply because it's modern, but because of its accuracy in translation. I don't hold myself to a single version, I read several, an then I have a copy of the ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek text. I can't fluidly read them (though I'm slightly better at Greek), but I have a dictionary of ancient words that I can look up a particular meaning of a word and understand it fully. The modern texts make it clear what the meaning of the ancient documents are. You knew these modern documents translated it as "faith in Jesus" (the ancient Greek just says "faith Jesus", and it's up to the translators to work out what goes in between), but chose not to mention it in your OP. That, Mr Masada, is intellectual dishonestly, if you ask me - and you have a history of doing this very thing in order to promote your agenda. Edited July 10, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[Ben Masada]

And the fact that the translators are not all Christian makes no nevermind to you? I don't accept a Bible simply because it's modern, but because of its accuracy in translation. I don't hold myself to a single version, I read several, an then I have a copy of the ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek text. I can't fluidly read them (though I'm slightly better at Greek), but I have a dictionary of ancient words that I can look up a particular meaning of a word and understand it fully. The modern texts make it clear what the meaning of the ancient documents are. You knew these modern documents translated it as "faith in Jesus" (the ancient Greek just says "faith Jesus", and it's up to the translators to work out what goes in between), but chose not to mention it in your OP. That, Mr Masada, is intellectual dishonestly, if you ask me - and you have a history of doing this very thing in order to promote your agenda.

As you say above, you do not accept a Bible simply because it is modern, but because of its accuracy in translation. This is not any better than not to accept old translations as you asserted in the previous post. But all the same, to accept a Bible based on its accuracy in translation, the accuracy must be evaluated according to your Christian pre-conceived notions. Can you see the reasoning point here?

[+Link of Hyrule]

As you say above, you do not accept a Bible simply because it is modern, but because of its accuracy in translation. This is not any better than not to accept old translations as you asserted in the previous post. But all the same, to accept a Bible based on its accuracy in translation, the accuracy must be evaluated according to your Christian pre-conceived notions. Can you see the reasoning point here?

Yes, Revelation speaks extensively about Jesus' status as king and messiah, and yet you have chosen to pull out one verse in chapter 14 in an attempt to prove that Orthodox Judaism is correct and true. The rest of Revelation is Hellenistic claptrap, but not this verse, this is the one true verse that managed to survive to refer to Jesus' Judaic walk of life - oh, and let's ignore other translations that are consistent with the rest of Revelation as referring to a person's faith in Jesus, that doesn't suit your agenda.

Am I close?

[Bluefinger]

Bluefinger, I have clearly explained in the thread that the originals in Hebrew do not mention "According to the order of Melchizedek" but "By My decree." And by the way, Abraham did not tithe Melchizedek. He just shared with him a portion of the spoils in payment for his gracious welcome. Since Abraham was not of the kind to take things free he decided not to owe him any favor. There was absolutely no homage by Abraham toward Melchizedek. That payment meant nothing in terms of returning the tithe. The idea was many years later copied by the Levites as an inspiration to build the tithing system. That's all.

I explained that Melchizedek meant rightful king. Anyway, it's likely that the author of Hebrews wasn't quoting the Hebrew version, but more likely the Septuagint.

"The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchisedec." (Psalm 110:4)

Edited July 14, 2013 by Bluefinger

[Yamato]

Jews kill only in self-defense. How about the millions of Jews killed throughout History by Christians by way of pogroms, blood libels, Crusades, Inquisition and last but not least the Holocaust, was it in self-defense? The problem with you is that Jews are supposed to stand on the front side of the barrow and never on the trigger side. I am sorry to disappoint you.

I wasn't aware the US had a non-Jew-only military but thanks for playing "I've got a problem with you because once upon a time". If everyone thought like you and acted out on their thoughts, we'll all be at each others' throats and the violence would never end. I think the US, UK, Canada etc. helped win WWII which ended the Holocaust. Germany should be paying us reparations, not us paying Jews who chose to move thousands of miles away so Europe could export their Jewish problem to the Middle East.

My problem isn't with the Jews, but if that's the exhaustive list you want to make trouble about, it sounds like you have a problem with Europeans which is ironic considering what the population of Israel is today. I highlight a Jewish ex-Marine named Adam Kokesh on a regular basis here. You should check out my content more often.

And parroting Nazi propaganda about Christianity is your business of the day only you're a lot more persistent about it than they were.

[Beckys_Mom]

And parroting Nazi propaganda about Christianity is your business of the day only you're a lot more persistent about it than they were.

First off- What is Nazi propaganda in ref to Christianity? The irony is, you say this to a Jew...!!!

Secondly - He is Jewish, he beliefs come from holy text, this pushes his ideas...

Edited July 15, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[DeWitz]

I wasn't aware the US had a non-Jew-only military but thanks for playing "I've got a problem with you because once upon a time". If everyone thought like you and acted out on their thoughts, we'll all be at each others' throats and the violence would never end. I think the US, UK, Canada etc. helped win WWII which ended the Holocaust. Germany should be paying us reparations, not us paying Jews who chose to move thousands of miles away so Europe could export their Jewish problem to the Middle East.

My problem isn't with the Jews, but if that's the exhaustive list you want to make trouble about, it sounds like you have a problem with Europeans which is ironic considering what the population of Israel is today. I highlight a Jewish ex-Marine named Adam Kokesh on a regular basis here. You should check out my content more often.

And parroting Nazi propaganda about Christianity is your business of the day only you're a lot more persistent about it than they were.

The strictest interpretation of Revelation 14:12 is as an acknowledgement of Christian martyrs who persevered in faith during the Roman persecutions and atrocities, circa 100 AD. At it's broadest it affirms all those who recognize that God is sovereign in history throughout all oppression, condemnation and death (Christians anticipate this universal and timeless power through the resurrection of Christ). Other faith traditions come to that appreciation that God is 'all-in-all' in other ways.

As for terrorism, no religious movement in history is altogether immune from wrongdoing. But as for formal acts of partisan terrorism, Menachem Begin, Yitzakh Shamir, and many others belonging to the Irgun Zionist organization (and other militant Jewish groups) killed a lot of innocent people in the years leading up to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. For example, in 1946 Begin and several others (future Israeli patriots) bombed Jerusalem's King David Hotel, murdering Swedish diplomat and peace negotiator Folke Bernadotte and 90 others--British administrators working to disengage from Palestine, maids, waiters, passers-by, etc. The connection with Revelation 14:12 is that many contemporary Christians consider Bernadotte a martyr for peace, thereby fitting in the broad interpretation in paragraph 1 above.

Edited July 15, 2013 by szentgyorgy

[Yamato]

First off- What is Nazi propaganda in ref to Christianity? The irony is, you say this to a Jew...!!!

Secondly - He is Jewish, he beliefs come from holy text, this pushes his ideas...

No, the irony is, a Jew is the one spewing the Nazi propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany#Nazi_attitudes_towards_Christianity

Oh really? Show me where in his Holy Texts that 80% of the New Testament is anti-semitic.

[Jor-el]

Ben Masada has a point. It's interesting how Christians reinterpreted prophecies from The Bible in order to make it seem like they were all fulfilled by Jesus.

In fact they were, Ben is something of a conundrum in that being Jewish he doesn't believe in many of the things Jews have believed throughout the centuries... so I wouldn't base too much on what he has to say on his own faith...

Edited July 15, 2013 by Jor-el

[Yamato]

The strictest interpretation of Revelation 14:12 is as an acknowledgement of Christian martyrs who persevered in faith during the Roman persecutions and atrocities, circa 100 AD. At it's broadest it affirms all those who recognize that God is sovereign in history throughout all oppression, condemnation and death (Christians anticipate this universal and timeless power through the resurrection of Christ). Other faith traditions come to that appreciation that God is 'all-in-all' in other ways.

As for terrorism, no religious movement in history is altogether immune from wrongdoing. But as for formal acts of partisan terrorism, Menachem Begin, Yitzakh Shamir, and many others belonging to the Irgun Zionist organization (and other militant Jewish groups) killed a lot of innocent people in the years leading up to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. For example, in 1946 Begin and several others (future Israeli patriots) bombed Jerusalem's King David Hotel, murdering Swedish diplomat and peace negotiator Folke Bernadotte and 90 others--British administrators working to disengage from Palestine, maids, waiters, passers-by, etc. The connection with Revelation 14:12 is that many contemporary Christians consider Bernadotte a martyr for peace, thereby fitting in the broad interpretation in paragraph 1 above.

I think your interpretation of Rev 14:12 fits best.

Zionism was borne of terror, it invented the terrorism that people think of when they think of terrorism today (e.g. blowing up buildings full of civilians). It's little wonder the world suffers from the policies today it does from the Zionists. I'm of the mind that nothing good can come from terrorism. It has precious little to do with a religious movement though Israelis work hard every day to wrap their politics up in their religion, they violate their own scriptures more than follow them.

[Beckys_Mom]

No, the irony is, a Jew is the one spewing the Nazi propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia....ds_Christianity

Oh really? Show me where in his Holy Texts that 80% of the New Testament is anti-semitic.

What I meant was.. Each thread and most of the posts Ben makes, comes from his own Jewish beliefs and how he has interpreted it.. I think it's all within the interpretations...It's not much different from Christianity itself, it has so many chrisians giving their own interpretations of the bible, hence why Christianity is split so many times again and again.. Not everyone will agree with others..So he is doing the same with his own beliefs and the text he reads...

[Jor-el]

What I meant was.. Each thread and most of the posts Ben makes, comes from his own Jewish beliefs and how he has interpreted it.. I think it's all within the interpretations...It's not much different from Christianity itself, it has so many chrisians giving their own interpretations of the bible, hence why Christianity is split so many times again and again.. Not everyone will agree with others..So he is doing the same with his own beliefs and the text he reads...

And thus he cannot speak for judaism as a whole, which he undoubtedly does...

[Beckys_Mom]

And thus he cannot speak for judaism as a whole, which he undoubtedly does...

I cut him some slack, he is the only Jewish member I can see who posts more often.. And he is no different from the odd christian here and there, who like to speak for everyone else..

[Jor-el]

I cut him some slack, he is the only Jewish member I can see who posts more often.. And he is no different from the odd christian here and there, who like to speak for everyone else..

I cut him some slack too, but not when what he posts actually contradicts the most ancient and trustworthy sources of Jewish belief and what is taught in Judaism still to this day.

[Beckys_Mom]

I cut him some slack too, but not when what he posts actually contradicts the most ancient and trustworthy sources of Jewish belief and what is taught in Judaism still to this day.

Which is your opinion not his..

[Yamato]

What I meant was.. Each thread and most of the posts Ben makes, comes from his own Jewish beliefs and how he has interpreted it.. I think it's all within the interpretations...It's not much different from Christianity itself, it has so many chrisians giving their own interpretations of the bible, hence why Christianity is split so many times again and again.. Not everyone will agree with others..So he is doing the same with his own beliefs and the text he reads...

Okay but if his "beliefs come from holy text", I'll ask again, what scriptures is he interpreting?

Unfortunately that's just not the case so I'm saying that no, you're wrong. Unfortunately, his interpretations are identical to Nazi interpretations, even when you do some homework and study the devil in the details, it's Nazi interpretation through and through.

[Jor-el]

Which is your opinion not his..

Not my opinion, if it were merely my opinion then we wouldn't have aproblem, but it is the opinion of many other jews, some of whom actually do teach at a substantially higher level.

When one actually contradicts the 13 principles of Jewish faith, one cannot speak for the whole.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Jor-el

[Beckys_Mom]

Not my opinion

I see it such..The same way I see all religious views

Edited July 15, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[Jor-el]

I see it such..The same way I see all religious views

Maybe you should actually question his views then and then study what Judaism says, then make your own decision regarding the issue...

[Beckys_Mom]

Maybe you should actually question his views then and then study what Judaism says, then make your own decision regarding the issue...

Why? Its still going to be a matter of ones own interpretation..

Edited July 15, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[DeWitz]

I think your interpretation of Rev 14:12 fits best.

Zionism was borne of terror, it invented the terrorism that people think of when they think of terrorism today (e.g. blowing up buildings full of civilians). It's little wonder the world suffers from the policies today it does from the Zionists. I'm of the mind that nothing good can come from terrorism. It has precious little to do with a religious movement though Israelis work hard every day to wrap their politics up in their religion, they violate their own scriptures more than follow them.

In fact they were, Ben is something of a conundrum in that being Jewish he doesn't believe in many of the things Jews have believed throughout the centuries... so I wouldn't base too much on what he has to say on his own faith...

The entire Book of Revelation is self-consciously about Jesus and those who endured the first Roman persecutions in his name, at the end of the first/beginning of the second century AD. It refers to many themes common to both Jewish and Christian believers, but is an intrinsically Christian ("christological") text. I don't understand this focus on chapter 14, verse 12 as something other than a reference to, specifically, early Christian martyrdom; and, generally, to people who die trusting in God's ultimate reign in history.

[Jor-el]

Why? Its still going to be a matter of ones own interpretation..

It matters when the person seems to be speaking for the whole religion.

[DeWitz]

I think your interpretation of Rev 14:12 fits best.

Zionism was borne of terror, it invented the terrorism that people think of when they think of terrorism today (e.g. blowing up buildings full of civilians). It's little wonder the world suffers from the policies today it does from the Zionists. I'm of the mind that nothing good can come from terrorism. It has precious little to do with a religious movement though Israelis work hard every day to wrap their politics up in their religion, they violate their own scriptures more than follow them.

I don't agree that Zionism invented terrorism, only that some Zionists practiced terrorism (some could make a case that Israel perpetrates state terrorism). Certainly the contemporary ideology of Israel is selective in emphasizing some aspects of Jewish history and faith over others (pretty good at re-living the Conquest of Canaan by Joshua, et.al.; not so good at remembering that the Hebrews were once outsiders, too--Exodus 23:9) Sadly, the three major world religions often violate rather than follow their own scriptures.

[Jor-el]

The entire Book of Revelation is self-consciously about Jesus and those who endured the first Roman persecutions in his name, at the end of the first/beginning of the second century AD. It refers to many themes common to both Jewish and Christian believers, but is an intrinsically Christian ("christological") text. I don't understand this focus on chapter 14, verse 12 as something other than a reference to, specifically, early Christian martyrdom; and, generally, to people who die trusting in God's ultimate reign in history.

¹² This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.

I see it uniquely as speaking about the Jews and only about the Jews... contrary to many peoples beliefs, very little of Revelation was written for the actual gentile church, as a matter of afact the church is never mentioned again after chapter 4 and then only again in chapter 19 onward. Every reference to the saints, the people of God, the faithful and so forth are a reference to Israel.

[Beckys_Mom]

It matters when the person seems to be speaking for the whole religion.

Which is no different from what Christians do...And they all seem to argue over interpretations.