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why did satan get kicked out of heaven


danielost

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No , no, not at all. That's not what I questioned. I wondered what did Moses take when he left there? What did he do before he left? and i don't mean the story about the wrath of God or the plagues upon Egypt as told in - I think Exodus....

Hi Reann,

My previous post was my answer to your question, I'm not sure if you got it. Moses wrote down the name of God... At any rate, it's one of the legends about Joseph's coffin...

Peace.

Edited by braveone2u
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I'm not the author , sorry if it sounded that way, I didn't mean for it to. It's just a paperback book that I've purchased .The title is: The Eighth Chakra .The authors name is Jude Currivan PhD...

The kingdom of Heaven reply was meant as that which is within us , not dogmatic at all. I agree with pretty much all of what you've said in this reply.It's the way i understand things too...

Darkness comes from the mind , knowledge is light . It's like the term " let there be light" ( or) "out of darkness comes light" . I recall that you mentioned you do not accept the theory of duality at all, I respect that. I get what you're saying.Also, it seems to me that what you said regarding duality (or) polar opposites, and that which is in the book I'm reading are of the same understanding, at least to me it seems so...

But like i tried to explain , it's tricky . How do we know for certain that, if someone extremely benevolent most likely will transform or become malevolent .I've heard the string theory approach to this from both sides that offer completely different theories...

I will check the book out, thanks.

even though I have my beliefs about non=duality, I do realize that we all exist physically in a duality-based universe and we must all adhere to its limitations.

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Thanks. I don't really believe that the ark of the covenant exist. I've wondered though, what did Moses exactly take from out of Egypt ?

He/they took livestock food and riches.

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Jor-el, hi. I'm not sure of what you mean , what doesn't make sense for you ? that the Spirit that exist within the universe ,of what I refer to as the creator is universal ? I don't believe i need anyone to tell me that in any text, it's just that for me it's apparent , it's obvious in nature that it is universal... .

What doesn't make sense is that Jesus Christ specifically told us the believers whom we call Christians to preach the Gospel to the entire world... why did he do that if there is truth in every religion, which is what you were stating?

"I've personally come to the realization that the creator is also revealed in other cultures of religions that may seem foreign to others, but that it too is the creator they acknowledge ...I think so because , I think that all religions lead to the same purpose, like branches of the same tree, you know? all waters meet..."

I seriously disagree with the above statement of yours. The religions of the world may have and probably do have a common root, in other words they all are derived from an original belief system common to humanity at some time in the past.

They all worshipped the one true God but as they drifted away from his worship and chose to worship other things, their beliefs changed and were corrupted over time. God with the bible has brought us the chance to worship and know him yet again. That is why I stated that other religions may have truth, but do not have "TheTruth", only the bible has that.

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Him.

That is what he has told us Christians to preach... it would not be necessary if the other religions were an option.

As for universalism, that has two meanings depending on the context, (1) that all religions are acceptable in the eyes of God, which is false if the words I quoted are anything to go by and (2) That God is in all religions... also false since the religions of the world do not glorify God but rather glorify the "sons of God", whom God gave humanity to in their apostasy, keeping only Israel for himself.

I would like you to explain to me please how you conceive God in your mind, Is he part of the universe? or external to the universe? is God in creation or a part of creation or is he the author of creation but apart from it?

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Let's not forget that god tolg abraham, isiac and jocab not to cross breed with the local 'population. This isn't white marring blacks. It is catholics marring muslums.

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Writing down the name of God on a piece of paper and flinging it into the Nile...?

No not that. I don't recall that part of the story . I think that it's told in the bible that Moses and the Israeli's had gathered up gold and silver from the Egyptians as they were fleeing Egypt ,as if the Egyptians gave their gold and silver willingly to them. I don't know for certain that they gave them anything willingly is what I am questioning.... I think that it's possible , that the reason why the Pharaoh went after them with his army, was because he was angry when he discovered what they had done to neighboring people . I think that it's possible that the Israeli's robbed them of their gold and silver...

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I will check the book out, thanks.

even though I have my beliefs about non=duality, I do realize that we all exist physically in a duality-based universe and we must all adhere to its limitations.

You're welcome....I think it's all very deep , duality and non duality... I think it's sort of tricky , same as the nature of quantum mechanics can be , because the rules change...

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I would like you to explain to me please how you conceive God in your mind, Is he part of the universe? or external to the universe? is God in creation or a part of creation or is he the author of creation but apart from it?

Well, of my own perception, God is the "Mind of all Nature" , and is always watching , always aware , by it's own nature ..

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No not that. I don't recall that part of the story . I think that it's told in the bible that Moses and the Israeli's had gathered up gold and silver from the Egyptians as they were fleeing Egypt ,as if the Egyptians gave their gold and silver willingly to them. I don't know for certain that they gave them anything willingly is what I am questioning.... I think that it's possible , that the reason why the Pharaoh went after them with his army, was because he was angry when he discovered what they had done to neighboring people . I think that it's possible that the Israeli's robbed them of their gold and silver...

You're talking about Exodus 12:36, but the King James doesn't use the word "plundered," but instead, the word is "spoiled." I'm sure you've heard, "To the victor go the spoils."
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What I want to know is: Why did the Flying Spaghetti Monster got kicked out of Russels Teapot?

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Well, of my own perception, God is the "Mind of all Nature" , and is always watching , always aware , by it's own nature ..

Thus in your view God is inextricably linked to nature?

To me that is not God.... if God created nature in that he created the universe and everything in it (nature being a part of it), then God would have, of neccessity created himself as well...

No, one is an artifact, the other the creator of the artifact. You can build a house but you are not that house or even a part of it... that is what an artifact means...

What I want to know is: Why did the Flying Spaghetti Monster got kicked out of Russels Teapot?

He didn't pay the bills.

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Thus in your view God is inextricably linked to nature?

To me that is not God.... if God created nature in that he created the universe and everything in it (nature being a part of it), then God would have, of neccessity created himself as well...

I gotta go with Reann here, what the principles, laws, and processes of the natural Universe is, those are what Mankind has assigned to Become God, not the other way around.
No, one is an artifact, the other the creator of the artifact. You can build a house but you are not that house or even a part of it... that is what an artifact means...

A house is simply a geometrically-coordinated, gravitationally-braced and weatherproof arrangement of certain kinds of molecules. As various individuals design, decorate, occupy, or view the house, however, it is imbued with characteristics assigned to it by them. It now exists in their several subjective universes, and it may continue to exist there even after the 'objective' house has been demolished. None of this necessitates a god in order for it to happen.

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I gotta go with Reann here, what the principles, laws, and processes of the natural Universe is, those are what Mankind has assigned to Become God, not the other way around.

Within the perspective of what we know God to be, He would by neccesity be outside of the natural universe, since to be within it, implies by our very basic understanding, a subservience to the very laws that govern it. God is not limited by the laws of nature, by the very characteristic of being God. Otherwise he would be something... but he would not be God.

To create the universe he would by logical neccesity also need to be outside its boundries... I think it is basic thought being applied here.. ie, it isn't hard to figure out.

A house is simply a geometrically-coordinated, gravitationally-braced and weatherproof arrangement of certain kinds of molecules. As various individuals design, decorate, occupy, or view the house, however, it is imbued with characteristics assigned to it by them. It now exists in their several subjective universes, and it may continue to exist there even after the 'objective' house has been demolished. None of this necessitates a god in order for it to happen.

If you build, it still isn't you. You can use, it abandon it, revamp it, do what you want with it, but it still isn't you... You cannot extend yourself to it. Your character can be displayed within it by people seeing how you decorate it, but all in all it will never be you or a part of you.

Edited by Jor-el
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22] And now, behold, if Adam had not transgressed he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the garden of Eden. And all things which were created must have remained in the same state in which they were after they were created; and they must have remained forever, and had no end

http://www.bookofmormononline.org/nephi2.html

I am sharing this because of another thread.

2nd nephi chapter 2

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God would be limited to the rules of this universe, if he interacts with it. Of course we don't know what all those rules are.

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Within the perspective of what we know God to be, He would by neccesity be outside of the natural universe, since to be within it, implies by our very basic understanding, a subservience to the very laws that govern it. God is not limited by the laws of nature, by the very characteristic of being God. Otherwise he would be something... but he would not be God.

Here lies THE biggest problem here, that you nor anyone else knows anything about this god, you either go by a book written by Man, or by what you 'feel' in your heart, which is probably due to reading the same book written by Man. At no time has this god laid down the "Law" for all to see and for none to ignore.
To create the universe he would by logical neccesity also need to be outside its boundries... I think it is basic thought being applied here.. ie, it isn't hard to figure out.
Agreed, this is a toughy to wrap the brain around
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Here lies THE biggest problem here, that you nor anyone else knows anything about this god, you either go by a book written by Man, or by what you 'feel' in your heart, which is probably due to reading the same book written by Man. At no time has this god laid down the "Law" for all to see and for none to ignore.

Agreed, this is a toughy to wrap the brain around

Oh he has, a number of times... the latest version is known as the bible.

You can claim it is written by man, and it was, their hand that penned it for sure, but behind that hand it was God inspiring them and directing them even dictating to them.

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Oh he has, a number of times... the latest version is known as the bible.

I believe that was part of my point
You can claim it is written by man, and it was, their hand that penned it for sure, but behind that hand it was God inspiring them and directing them even dictating to them.
Just as you can "claim" it was directed/dictated by a god.
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I believe that was part of my point

Just as you can "claim" it was directed/dictated by a god.

Of course, that is the quagmire of this debate, no-one has evidence of such things either way.. if we did it wouldn't be contested naturally.

All I can give is my position which has been amply debated. That being said, there are indeed a number of things we can state about God, if we ignore the scriptures as a whole.

One is that God created the universe and us along with it, Two, that God does seem to be leading us somewhere and that we are all playing a part in that grand scheme of his. Three that the ultimate purpose of such a plan is for our benefit even if it does not immediately seem to be apparant what that benefit is.

Many people talk of control and us being marionettes or that he wants slaves or some such parallel idea, but it seems to me that if this were indeed the case, God would not have to go to such extremes as, illusion of free will, the lack of clear evidence of his existence among other well known arguments... he could cut to the chase and make us do what he wanted... no inconvenience on his part to do so in any way.

Why the run around then if that was or is Gods intent?

The only logical answer is that such is not hius intent and that something else is in order, hence my initial position.

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Of course, that is the quagmire of this debate, no-one has evidence of such things either way.. if we did it wouldn't be contested naturally.

All I can give is my position which has been amply debated. That being said, there are indeed a number of things we can state about God, if we ignore the scriptures as a whole.

One is that God created the universe and us along with it, Two, that God does seem to be leading us somewhere and that we are all playing a part in that grand scheme of his. Three that the ultimate purpose of such a plan is for our benefit even if it does not immediately seem to be apparant what that benefit is.

Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?
Many people talk of control and us being marionettes or that he wants slaves or some such parallel idea, but it seems to me that if this were indeed the case, God would not have to go to such extremes as, illusion of free will, the lack of clear evidence of his existence among other well known arguments... he could cut to the chase and make us do what he wanted... no inconvenience on his part to do so in any way.

Why the run around then if that was or is Gods intent?

The only logical answer is that such is not hius intent and that something else is in order, hence my initial position.

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'
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Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

That is better than the new saying. If I can't comperhind it, it was an accident.

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Without scripture to guide you, how did you arrive at these ideas?

Ah yes, the old . . . "since I can't comprehend certain things, then these things MUST be the work of god and He works in 'mysterious ways'

Hi Etu Malku,

Here's my side of the story:

Since I've already seen Jesus Christ, I can now afford to believe that other people in the Bible saw Him, conversed with the Father, wrote about Them, etc. Therefore, I'm working backwards to better understand His life, why He's the Messiah. From seeing to learning Jesus' story, it's the reverse, compared to what most Christians go through. I'm using the Bible because it's the only ANCIENT book that actually tells the world Jesus Christ is God, "uncreated" -- no other book tells His supreme nature like it is -- and All Powerful's the way I understood Him in the afterlife. He's NO minor god.

On the other hand, Jesus never gave me a message to share to the world. There's nothing special about me (psychically speaking), no supernatural powers and so on. I'm no prophet, either. One could either ignore my story, or get inspired by it. I'm completely unattached. Not entirely, I enjoy sharing my thoughts and hearing other people's POV...

I understand why people have a hard time with Bible. Thing is, just seeing Jesus Christ is NOT a guarantee of total conversion. The story of the Exodus is a good example of that, as in the Golden Calf, and also Judas. So yes, one has to accept Him in one's heart. Catch 22? In the end, it's by grace alone; however, Revelation 3:20 tells us: "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

Perhaps I've also been broken down by life enough to appreciate the initial contact, the personal experience... The rest is history.

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound

That sav’d a wretch like me!

I once was lost, but now am found,

Was blind, but now I see.

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,

And grace my fears reliev’d;

How precious did that grace appear,

The hour I first believ’d!

Thro’ many dangers, toils and snares,

I have already come;

’Tis grace has brought me safe thus far,

And grace will lead me home.

The Lord has promis’d good to me,

His word my hope secures;

He will my shield and portion be,

As long as life endures.

Yes, when this flesh and heart shall fail,

And mortal life shall cease;

I shall possess, within the veil,

A life of joy and peace.

The earth shall soon dissolve like snow,

The sun forbear to shine;

But God, who call’d me here below,

Will be forever mine.

Just sharing.

Edited by braveone2u
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If we were/are puppets and god the puppet master, why is there so much meseary on the planet. A puppet does not have a choice but to do what the puppet master says.

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If we were/are puppets and god the puppet master, why is there so much meseary on the planet. A puppet does not have a choice but to do what the puppet master says.

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." - Isaiah 45:7

Edited by Arpee
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