zimmerman's rights are our rights.

[Babe Ruth]

There seems to be so much conflicting information. If you have a better link than this:

http://en.wikipedia...._Trayvon_Martin

please let me know. Anyway, I was trying to read up on this, because I still don't know everything about it, nor do I claim to, but after dispatch told Z "we don't need you to do that", Z said "OK", and just kept going in the general same direction, not to follow Martin, but to get an address to give to police, if I understand correctly. Imo, nothing reckless about that at all. Trayvon was evidently the one who circled back and attacked Zimmerman. That was not only reckless, but criminal.

Just for the record, I'm a white guy raised in rural Florida, and part of that upbringing was by a kind and gracious black lady. We were fairly well off back in the 60's, both my parents were from "up north", and the n-word was never ever used in our household, despite it being commonly and frequently used by many of my friends.

The truth is that if Martin had been a white boy, Zimmerman's racial hackles would not have been raised. It would have been a non-event. Even though white boys ALSO break into houses. My house has been broken into more times by whites than by blacks, FWIW.

If Zimmerman had done what he was told to by the autorities, this would never have happened.

[danielost]

With it down pouring at night, how could anyone determine trayvon's race with his hood pulled over his head. Further when the dispatcher asked zimmerman about the race of trayvon. He said black or hispanic or white. But, this has been told to you several times.

[Gummug]

Just for the record, I'm a white guy raised in rural Florida, and part of that upbringing was by a kind and gracious black lady. We were fairly well off back in the 60's, both my parents were from "up north", and the n-word was never ever used in our household, despite it being commonly and frequently used by many of my friends.

The truth is that if Martin had been a white boy, Zimmerman's racial hackles would not have been raised. It would have been a non-event. Even though white boys ALSO break into houses. My house has been broken into more times by whites than by blacks, FWIW.

If Zimmerman had done what he was told to by the autorities, this would never have happened.

It also never would have happened, as has also been mentioned numerous times, if TM had not attacked GZ, which seems pretty incontrovertible now that that's what he did. If TM was afraid, if he had just called 911 (as GZ did) it also never would have happened...think, if TM was really innocent (which I doubt) and they had both called 911, maybe later they would have both laughed about it and then they could have gone and had a beer together somewhere. You're better than this, Babe Ruth. I respect your posts as generally very reasonable, but for some reason you have this idea of GZ as a vigilante or something. From what I have learned about him, he was anything but, but he was concerned about his family's safety, that's why he was in NW.

edit for usual brain f*rts.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Gummug

[+DieChecker]

That sir, is a matter of interpretation and debate.

For the umpteenth time, if Z had followed the instructions of the dispatcher, we would not be having this conversation today.

If he had done what he was told and not followed Martin, we would not be having this conversation because in all probability Martin would still be alive.

If he had done what they said, Martin would never have had the opportunity to confront the man who was following him.

This thread is basically about GZs rights...

1) GZ had the right to own and carry his gun. (The NW said not to carry it, but he was not on patrol.)

2) GZ had the right to follow someone. (From what I've read online, the National NW policy is not to follow vehicles.)

3) GZ had the right to ignore the 911 operator.

4) GZ had the right to defend himself.

5) GZ had the right to react with deadly force if he felt his life was in danger.

Your arguing that if GZ had simply given up his rights to what he could do and just do what Politically Correctness tells him to, then TM would be alive.

Is that what you want? Do you want rights taken away from everyone?

[+DieChecker]

The truth is that if Martin had been a white boy, Zimmerman's racial hackles would not have been raised. It would have been a non-event. Even though white boys ALSO break into houses. My house has been broken into more times by whites than by blacks, FWIW

But, it was not black AND white boys breaking into homes in that neighborhood. Police calls show it was ONLY black males. And even if it had been a white boy, I feel GZ would have reacted the same. He would have still called 911, gone and looked at the kid, and then followed him if he ran off. None of which is illegal.

[stevemagegod]

But, it was not black AND white boys breaking into homes in that neighborhood. Police calls show it was ONLY black males. And even if it had been a white boy, I feel GZ would have reacted the same. He would have still called 911, gone and looked at the kid, and then followed him if he ran off. None of which is illegal.

And if it was a white boy which was shot and killed it wouldn't be a National Story. Just 5 minutes on the news.

[Skep B]

I might be kind of...biased in this, because where I work we have the news on constantly...it's part of what we do.

I dunno if the fat hispanic dude was a racist, I dunno if the skinny black kid was a thug. I dunno how it happened to be the kid got shot. i dunno who initiated contact

And we'll never know 100 percent on anything in this because everyone involved has been stupid, deceitful, or both

So, I dunno the facts. And anymore, I just don't care about this whole thing. The pros. couldn't prove what happened, he was let go. And somewhere a kid is dead, but they'll be another tomorrow, and another, and another, and another.

And maybe one of them can be the figure the world pretends to care about for a few months.

[stevemagegod]

Rush Limbaugh hit it on the head folks. Everyone is always trying to claim Zimmerman as the racist but no ever questioned if TM was the raciest. After all we have already proven that Zimmerman did not racially profile Martin. Martin racially profiled Zimmerman.

RUSH: No, of course not! It's common parlance and statement of fact. Zimmerman was and is a "creepy ass cracker." It's a statement of fact. It's not racial. It's not offensive. Creepy ass cracker. She knows that she can't say anything that's offensive. It's not gonna ever be judged as offensive. She's permitted to say whatever she wants! Now, if Trayvon Martin had been referred to as a "crazy-ass" something else, that would have been big.

This may end up being big, I don't know about the jury, but it's a statement of fact. "He's a creepy ass cracker! What do you mean, lawyer? Ain't any big deal. It's not racial. It's not offensive. It's a statement of fact. He's a creepy ass cracker! Look at him. Look at you! You're a creepy ass cracker, you lawyer! You're a creepy ass cracker, asking me all these questions, you creepy ass!

"All of you are creepy ass crackers. Everybody in here is creepy ass crackers. The only reason I'm in here is 'cause you are all creepy ass crackers!" This is the prosecution's star witness, folks. This is it. Rachel Jeantel. The exchange then continued. This is about a letter that she wrote. By the way, she's 19 years old, and she can't read cursive on a letter that she supposedly wrote herself. She can't read it. That's what this is about.

http://www.rushlimba...epy_ass_cracker

Edited August 3, 2013 by stevemagegod

[Skep B]

I think if we want to start being offended at slang for white people, there needs to be an update.

Cracker just makes me laugh and want clam chowder...which might be the whitest of white people food to want, so I guess it establishes the stereotype

[Babe Ruth]

But, it was not black AND white boys breaking into homes in that neighborhood. Police calls show it was ONLY black males. And even if it had been a white boy, I feel GZ would have reacted the same. He would have still called 911, gone and looked at the kid, and then followed him if he ran off. None of which is illegal.

Correct, none of which is illegal, in and of itself.

But in context of what happened there, that night, the result of those voluntary actions by Z resulted in the death of an innocent man. It's the context that counts. One man did not follow instructions from supervisors, and as a result, another man died.

It's not rocket science.

[stevemagegod]

It's not rocket science.

Its the American Criminal Justice System to very different sciences.

Edited August 3, 2013 by stevemagegod

[+DieChecker]

Correct, none of which is illegal, in and of itself.

But in context of what happened there, that night, the result of those voluntary actions by Z resulted in the death of an innocent man. It's the context that counts. One man did not follow instructions from supervisors, and as a result, another man died.

It's not rocket science.

Yeah. And there was a trial and he was found not guilty criminally of the death. That TM died is sad, but it happened and GZ is not legally to blame.

How many people die needlessly every day? We can't stop all needless deaths, but the criminal ones should be punished.

You're arguing that if Mr Smith did not leave work at 5:15, then he would not have hit Little Timmy. The only culpability of GZ is that he potentially broke the HOA NW rules.

[danielost]

A cracker is a florida cowboy. They use billwhips instead of ropes. Their called crakers because of the sound of the billwhip when used.

[Skep B]

Huh, didn't know that.

tho i guess it coulda been used for people who owned slaves too.

But the connection to cracker and whips i hadn't made.

Seems more badass than an insult in that light

[+DieChecker]

I might be kind of...biased in this, because where I work we have the news on constantly...it's part of what we do.

I dunno if the fat hispanic dude was a racist, I dunno if the skinny black kid was a thug. I dunno how it happened to be the kid got shot. i dunno who initiated contact

And we'll never know 100 percent on anything in this because everyone involved has been stupid, deceitful, or both

So, I dunno the facts. And anymore, I just don't care about this whole thing. The pros. couldn't prove what happened, he was let go. And somewhere a kid is dead, but they'll be another tomorrow, and another, and another, and another.

And maybe one of them can be the figure the world pretends to care about for a few months.

Wait... Listening to the News is part of your overall job, but you have no idea about the facts of the case? That sounds a little weird to me.

[regeneratia]

I have to say that one of the most peace-seeking things I have done in a long time is not to engage in this news issue. I didn't read one news article on it. I didn't care who won. The media is so skewed on this issue that I wonder why anyone is reading it. But I sure do think Holder is an hind quarter ... whole.

Edited August 4, 2013 by regeneratia

[+DieChecker]

I have to say that one of the most peace-seeking things I have done in a long time is not to engage in this news issue. I didn't read one news article on it. I didn't care who won. The media is so skewed on this issue that I wonder why anyone is reading it. But I sure do think Holder is an hind quarter ... whole.

I'm going to take your example and ignore the issue from here on out also. Good advice to EVERYONE!!!

[Babe Ruth]

Its the American Criminal Justice System to very different sciences.

Back in March 2003, Judge Edith Jones of the USCA 5th Circuit, at an address to the Federalist Society at Harvard Law School, observed that "the american legal system is corrupted beyond recognition", though she was not talking about outrageous jury verdicts as much as she was the general rule of law in general as it manifests in the US Criminal Justice system.

John DeArmond observed long before that "you know your country is dying when you have to make a distinction between what is moral and ethical, and what is legal." That bit is more relevant to this case.

One man follows another, against advice given him by the police. The other man is shot by the one disregarding legal advice, and today men are defending that perverse situation as the rule of law.

Yes, we have the government we deserve, in spades.

[+joc]

Back in March 2003, Judge Edith Jones of the USCA 5th Circuit, at an address to the Federalist Society at Harvard Law School, observed that "the american legal system is corrupted beyond recognition", though she was not talking about outrageous jury verdicts as much as she was the general rule of law in general as it manifests in the US Criminal Justice system.

John DeArmond observed long before that "you know your country is dying when you have to make a distinction between what is moral and ethical, and what is legal." That bit is more relevant to this case.

One man follows another, against advice given him by the police. The other man is shot by the one disregarding legal advice, and today men are defending that perverse situation as the rule of law.

Yes, we have the government we deserve, in spades.

Wow did you see that? No what? The point! Huh?

That's right...you missed the point...The POINT is that regardless of what happened before with or without the 911 call...Treyvon Martin attacked Zimmerman. Once you instigate violence, it takes its own path. Treyvon instigated violence against Zimmerman. Zimmerman ended the attack. Who then is responsible for the death of TM? Treyvon or Zimmerman? Would Zimmerman have shot TM at point blank range had he not been attacked? No.

[danielost]

How many times in a movie, have we seen two people wrestling over a gun when oe or the other gets shot. Trayvon wanted to kill zimmerman. Zimmermas wanted to tell the police where trayvon was going. Trayvon ast his door turns around to confront zimmerman. Trayvon was a drug user, they don't like to be followed. Because efither the guy is the police pr he i in contact with them, or he wants the drugs.

[Babe Ruth]

Whatever blows your skirt Daniel, is fine with me.

[danielost]

John DeArmond observed long before that "you know your country is dying when you have to make a distinction between what is moral and ethical, and what is legal." That bit is more relevant to this case.

Bab ruth: This is the most important part of any of your posts to date. This is why it took spas long as it did for the jury to return their virdect.

You want zimmerman in jail, beause it is the moral thing to do. But, the jury did their job correctly and said not guilty. They wanted to put him in jail, the moral thing to do, but they said not guilty because by the law there was no evidence that zimmerman did not intend to kill martinunil after martin tried to kill him.

[Babe Ruth]

Rationalization always eases the mind Daniel, at least on the surface.

[lightly]

Wow did you see that? No what? The point! Huh?

That's right...you missed the point...The POINT is that regardless of what happened before with or without the 911 call...Treyvon Martin attacked Zimmerman. Once you instigate violence, it takes its own path. Treyvon instigated violence against Zimmerman. Zimmerman ended the attack. Who then is responsible for the death of TM? Treyvon or Zimmerman? Would Zimmerman have shot TM at point blank range had he not been attacked? No.

Do we know for sure what happened and why? Do we know what was said between the two of them? Do we know If Z got nervous and put his hand on his gun? Do we know how T might react to that? No.. we don't. So we still don't know who INSTIGATED violence?

Edited August 6, 2013 by lightly

[danielost]

We do know that martin was the one using racial slurs not zimmerman. We lso know he doubled back to confront zimmerman. The lay he was on the phone with said that much.