Comparing Atlantis

[Nembus]

Cormac is correct, and questioning science or fundamental facts thereof does not alter reality. As all extant textual evidence shows us, Plato is the origin of the Atlantis fable. It is exists in no similar form in any source prior to Plato's Timaeus and Critias. That said, when one posits Atlantis scenarios that lie outside the details of Plato's fable, that individual has left the source material and has descended into make-believe. It is not a constructive approach.

Ancient Egypt had a similar story. Try Googling it.

[Mario Dantas]

Hello,

It seems i just can't shut up when it comes to Atlantis (btw comparing Atlantis to what?).

Plato's Atlantis could have been a metaphor. but scientific data now available is clearly "saying" the contrary!

Is it not a great coincidence that the largest island in the world is located in the Atlantic ocean? And is it not another strange coincidence that it was (albeit millions of years ago) located further south, actually where Plato said Atlantis to have been situated? Why would the Mid Atlantic Ridge be only "visible" or noticeable, in all geoid maps (without exception), exactly where Atlantis was supposed to have been, in front of Gibraltar? Why is there in the north Atlantic the highest geodetic anomaly of all the places in the world? Finally, why is the shape of the anomaly resembling Greenland?

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Edited August 14, 2013 by Mario Dantas

[cormac mac airt]

They were not claimed to be as advanced as Plato's Atlanteans - as I said - that seems a mute point to me, claimed by who? I wouldn't expect the people of the Atlas mountains, who may be descendants of the true Atlanteans to be mentioned as people of note by Herodotus if he himself did not know this.

OK, well Spartel Island is a sunken island approx. 9000BC and is in the Strait of Gibraltar.

Spartel Bank or Majuán Bank is a submerged former island located in the Strait of Gibraltar near Cape Spartel and the Spartel Sill. Its highest point is currently 56 metres below the surface. Spartel Bank is one of the several seamounts in the bed of Gibraltar Strait, similar but deeper seamounts are found at Camarilal Sill and further east. These represent landslide blocks which slid south from the north bank of the Strait of Gibraltar when the strait was formed, possibly through erosion by inflowing waters of the Zanclean flood.

It vanished under the surface approximately 12,000 years ago^[1] due to rising ocean levels from melting ice caps after the last Glacial Maximum. It has been proposed by researchers Jacques Collina-Girard and Marc-Andrè Gutscher as a site for the legendary lost island of Atlantis.^[1] However, in follow-up correspondence Gutscher indicates that the island could not have been Atlantis, referring to Plato's description of a Bronze Age society, which Spartel could not have supported at the time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spartel

I acknowledge that it did not support a Bronze Age society such as described by Plato but could have been the landmass remembered in the story given, which led to the demise of the society in general, which most likely was part of West and North Africa. Plato could have meant the peninsular area of Africa (because he uses the word nesos) which at one time had Spartel Island nearby, down Morocco to the Canary Islands - all this area should be Atlantis and is where Herodotus maps has Atlanteans as living.

Other ancient writers refer to this area as an island, when they refer to the peninsular. They probably moved East into Libya during this flood eventually resulting in Poseidon always being worshipped by only them.

The word "Marrakech" is made of the Berber word combination Mour N Akoush (Mur N Akuc), meaning Land of God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco

The area of present-day Morocco has been inhabited since Paleolithic times, at least since 200,000 BCE.^{[citation needed]} During the Upper Paleolithic, the Maghreb was more fertile than it is today, resembling a savanna more than today's arid landscape.^[10] 22,000 years ago, the Aterian was succeeded by the Iberomaurusian culture, which shared similarities with Iberian cultures. Skeletal similarities have been suggested between the Iberomaurusian "Mechta-Afalou" burials and European Cro-Magnon remains. The Iberomaurusian was succeeded by the Beaker culture in Morocco.

Studies have discovered a close link between Berbers and the Saami of Scandinavia which confirms that the Franco-Cantabrian refuge area of southwestern Europe was the source of late-glacial expansions of hunter-gatherers that repopulated northern Europe after the last ice age

Atlas was a legendary king of Mauretania, the land of the Mauri in antiquity roughly corresponding with modern Morocco.

King Atlas was said to have been skilled in philosophy, mathematics, and astronomy. In antiquity, he was credited with inventing the first celestial globe. In some medieval texts, he is even credited with the invention of astronomy itself

http://en.wikipedia....s_of_Mauretania

As seen from the above Spartel Island was less than 500 meters/1640 feet across. That's not remotely large enough to house a sizeable population, particularly one that would be responsible for the type of control over the Mediterranean that Plato's Atlantis was claimed to have had.

cormac

[cormac mac airt]

Ancient Egypt had a similar story. Try Googling it.

Actually it didn't. Try reading actual Ancient Egyptian history as well as their myths and legends and not what some crackpot cooked up for the intellectually stunted.

cormac

[Nembus]

Actually it didn't. Try reading actual Ancient Egyptian history as well as their myths and legends and not what some crackpot cooked up for the intellectually stunted.

cormac

Crackpot? lol

Is that how you dismiss everything of no value to back up your own opinion?

I remember one time one gave me the argument that Plato was 'high' and that he invented that story through 'tripping' . The guy was also a historian. I expected a better argument than that. From both you and him .

[Myles]

Crackpot? lol

Is that how you dismiss everything of no value to back up your own opinion?

I remember one time one gave me the argument that Plato was 'high' and that he invented that story through 'tripping' . The guy was also a historian. I expected a better argument than that. From both you and him .

I'm not sure they owe you an arguement at all. There is not any evidence of Atlantis being real. The burdon of proof is on the believers.

[Nembus]

I'm not sure they owe you an arguement at all. There is not any evidence of Atlantis being real. The burdon of proof is on the believers.

Antarctica has all the evidence it needs. I don't owe anyone an argument why either. Wanna disprove? Go ahead, but one should not expect solid, scientific arguments if they can't provide any in return. There is nothing solid or scientific by calling people junkies or charlatans.

[The Puzzler]

Hello,

It seems i just can't shut up when it comes to Atlantis

Regards,

Mario Dantas

I have that problem too Mario.

Edited August 14, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Myles]

Antarctica has all the evidence it needs. I don't owe anyone an argument why either. Wanna disprove? Go ahead, but one should not expect solid, scientific arguments if they can't provide any in return. There is nothing solid or scientific by calling people junkies or charlatans.

Antarctica is evidence of Atlantis?

You cannot provide solid scientific evidence to disprove something that never existed.

[Nembus]

Antarctica is evidence of Atlantis?

You cannot provide solid scientific evidence to disprove something that never existed.

Antarctica doesn't exist?

[cormac mac airt]

Crackpot? lol

Is that how you dismiss everything of no value to back up your own opinion?

I remember one time one gave me the argument that Plato was 'high' and that he invented that story through 'tripping' . The guy was also a historian. I expected a better argument than that. From both you and him .

Nope, that's how I dismiss BS pretending it's relevant to a discussion of Plato's Atlantis, which is the only version of the tale with any merit since it is the original. Anything less is just a reinterpretation of the story in order to rationalize it into existance, so therefore meaningless. That you wish to portray your fiction as some version of the truth says more about you than it does about any claim to Atlantis' existance.

cormac

[Nembus]

Nope, that's how I dismiss BS pretending it's relevant to a discussion of Plato's Atlantis, which is the only version of the tale with any merit since it is the original.

cormac

... But its not the original ...

[cormac mac airt]

... But its not the original ...

And your evidence for the tale of Atlantis by name, specifically predating Plato's tale, would be what?

cormac

[Nembus]

And your evidence for the tale of Atlantis by name, specifically predating Plato's tale, would be what?

cormac

Why does it have to have the same name?

[cormac mac airt]

Why does it have to have the same name?

Why are you evading the question? Do you have any evidence of a place, as located by Plato and of the correct timeframe, that could even remotely be misconstrued as Atlantis? Because the location as well as the timeframe is just as important as the name. If not, then it's a moot point.

cormac

[Nembus]

Why are you evading the question? Do you have any evidence of a place, as located by Plato and of the correct timeframe, that could even remotely be misconstrued as Atlantis? Because the location as well as the timeframe is just as important as the name. If not, then it's a moot point.

cormac

Auritea

[cormac mac airt]

Auritea

In other words, no evidence. Ok, thanks.

cormac

[Myles]

Antarctica doesn't exist?

What are you trying to say. I'm confused.

When asked for evidence that Atlantis was real, you responded with "Antarctica has all the evidence it needs". Can you explain what that means?

[jaylemurph]

Nope, that's how I dismiss BS pretending it's relevant to a discussion of Plato's Atlantis, which is the only version of the tale with any merit since it is the original. Anything less is just a reinterpretation of the story in order to rationalize it into existance, so therefore meaningless. That you wish to portray your fiction as some version of the truth says more about you than it does about any claim to Atlantis' existance.

cormac

Not to name names, but there are people who will ransack language (in the most vulgar fashion) to try to "prove" their point: they think anything with the letters Atl refer specifically to Atlantis, and that any mention of those letters is a specific reference to Plato's city. This almost always blatantly ignores that 'Atlantic', and all the various Greek forms of it, refer to Atlas, Posiedon and their descendants.

All too often the kind of people who hear and repeat that (if not expanding on it) are not people who speak Greek and don't have the linguistic chops to justify their assertions.

--Jaylemurph

[Myles]

What are you trying to say. I'm confused.

When asked for evidence that Atlantis was real, you responded with "Antarctica has all the evidence it needs". Can you explain what that means?

I heard Atlantis had a baseball team. I've even seen a hat with ATL Braves on it. I assume it is in reference to how brave the residents of Atlantis were.

[cormac mac airt]

I heard Atlantis had a baseball team. I've even seen a hat with ATL Braves on it. I assume it is in reference to how brave the residents of Atlantis were.

Much like some people believe that this is "the End Times" or that "the South is going to rise again" the ATL Braves are patiently awaiting the return of Atlantis.

cormac

[docyabut2]

I resign myself that it a was eurption of Thera that the greeks had no history of, but the Egyptains some how did.

[Harte]

Wow, nice. Let's all go with what jaylemurph said...because that pretty much says it all.

Nice. You're weaning yourself off the "essay" posts, aren't you Kmt?

Down to two sentences now.

Harte

[Harte]

Agreed facts are facts - but maybe we should be careful about totally dismissing myth and legends about the ancient world . Although probably much distorted there just might be a grain of truth in them. Troy might be a good example ?

We know of no "myth or legend" at all involving Atlantis. None.

Plato's story was, is and shall always be a story, a philosophical example...an allegory. My point being it is possible that he may have used the destruction of Santorini as a basis for his "cataclysm".

You have to assume that Plato heard something or figured out something that predated him by 1300 years. Predated what we call the "Greeks" as well.

More likely is Helike, if you have to have a model. Helike sank during Plato's lifetime, and was not that far from where Plato lived as a child.

Now sure, [we don't have this exact story written down prior to Plato that we can identify as such, but this does not mean it didn't exist. There are many ancient texts we only have one copy of, you should know of all people how hard it is for these written works prior to the Romans to have survived.

You imply, I suppose, that we don't have a (possibly) existing text from Solon.

As I said above, we have no inkling whatsoever in any ancient culture that anything like Atlantis ever existed.

Consider this, the portion of your post I quoted above above represents precisely the situation we were in before Calvert discovered what is probably Troy.

Yet even without any ancient texts referring to Troy, we could have easily deduced the myth of Troy, or something like it, from ancient artwork alone.

The idea of Troy, which everyone likes to point out was "considered to be a myth" (not really the case, but...) was infused throughout ancient Greek culture.

Do you have anything you can point to in Greek culture that suggests some story/myth/legend like Atlantis - in artwork or other media?

No, you don't.

Ancient Egypt had a similar story. Try Googling it.

"Try Googling it" is not even a response.

Or, do you even imagine that people here have not "tried Googling it?"

I've been looking at this for over twenty years. I started as a believer (but not a zealot.) There is simply nothing out there at all that indicates anything like what you seem to think.

So, "try Googling it" yourself.

I remember one time one gave me the argument that Plato was 'high' and that he invented that story through 'tripping' . The guy was also a historian. I expected a better argument than that. From both you and him .

Plato was not an historian by any means.

It's amusing to see what the ignorant are willing to say about Plato without having actually read Plato.

Not to name names, but there are people who will ransack language (in the most vulgar fashion) to try to "prove" their point: they think anything with the letters Atl refer specifically to Atlantis, and that any mention of those letters is a specific reference to Plato's city. This almost always blatantly ignores that 'Atlantic', and all the various Greek forms of it, refer to Atlas, Posiedon and their descendants.

All too often the kind of people who hear and repeat that (if not expanding on it) are not people who speak Greek and don't have the linguistic chops to justify their assertions.

--Jaylemurph

I like the "Atlantis in South America" crowd making a big deal out of the atl-atl.

IMO, the users of the atl-atl were just stutterers.

Spit it out, for God's sake!

Harte

[LucidElement]

Back on track lol.. Basically, there is no evidence to see if they happen to find something to prove it was atlantis, because they would have to compare it to stories Plato had heard.? Kind of crazy thought, which is why I made the topic.