[Merged] Madeleine McCann

[Aaronsmom]

Thanks Moon Gazer. I have seen that photograph, closer to the time of the abduction. Let me be clear: I'm not condoning the choice they made to dine with friends on the other side of the resort's plaza from where their children were sleeping. I doubt I would do that either...not with children so young. But I do see why they felt so naively safe in doing it. I have seen parents make questionable choices, things that caused me to raise my eyebrows, things I wouldn't consider doing myself. I have also looked back on some of my own choices and wondered why I did that. I thought, wow, that wasn't too smart. I'm really lucky nothing bad happened. I think back on things my parents did when I was little, and they seem incredibly naive or poor judgment. I think, I was really lucky it worked out OK.

Parents make all sorts of unwise choices and judgments over the course of raising children. And probably 99.5% of the time, people luck out and there are no bad results. But for those who get their foot caught in that .5% snare when lax precaution coincide with the worst possible timing and most unpredictable, freakish bad circumstances, too often it is a tragic twist..,just as it did for the McCanns the night their daughter was taken. That doesn't make them guilty of killing her. That's what bothers me here. It seems like people want to make the McCanns out to be child-killers because they despise them so much for leaving the children alone in their rooms while they ate dinner with friends. But making a bad parenting choice--even a stupendously bad one--doesn't make a couple guilty of killing their own child.

No matter how much people denounce them, castigate them, crucify them and beat up on them for leaving the children alone that night, I'm sure it can't compare to how much they have beat up on themselves for that decision-- and how much they will continue to do so, probably, for the rest of their lives.

[ciriuslea]

I always thought it was lazy to just say the parents did it, there was absolutely no evidence they were involved, over zealous journalists and the fact that parents are always amongst the suspects along with the small amount of leads that led nowhere imo left people with the assumption the parents did it, whats interesting is still no body has been found, if the parents did it...how did they dispose of her and why hasn't she been found, I prefer to think she was abducted and will probably be found like the girls in a recent case after managing to escape from some nutter who has her locked up in some dungeon

[Beckys_Mom]

I wonder if what's going on here is jealousy. Jealous because the McCanns are affluent professionals who could take their three children on a luxury vacation abroad and got worldwide attention for years when their daughter disappeared. Is that why some of you seem to despise them with such fervor?

There are no parents I can think of who would want to be in their shoes including myself, calling it jealous is a joke, I doubt the Mc Cans would call any of it jealousy either... If they could swap the world wide attention for their child in return, don't you think they would do it? Any time I take my kids on holiday, they are with us at all times.. I would not dander out for the night and leave them alone for love nor money.. I know one thing, I bet the McCans wished they had not of went out leaving their kids alone and I bet that they wont ever do it again.

And Becky's Mom, while you're getting all steamed up about parents leaving their kids alone, sometimes both my parents worked at night and my brother and I were left alone in the house. We didn't burn it down, we didn't hurt each other, we didn't wreck anything and we weren't concerned.

Let me ask you - Are you telling me this because you think it's ok to leave small children home alone? What point are you trying to make?

Do you realize that there are more people out there who would never do such a thing? Do you realise what social services would do if they found out that my hubby and I were off out for the night and we left our two small children alone at home? Also, do you realize that all it can take is that one time? The Mc Cans could vouch for that too, sadly but it's true...

The Mc Cans only had to do it one time and that was enough and look at them now? I could not take that risk, and I think after what happened to the Mc Canns and many like them, I am sure more people thought twice before taking such a risk... Like I said above, I bet the McCans wished they had never taken such a risk.....To lay the emphasis on this - Sometimes, people can get away with it, and sometimes it only takes one risk of leaving children alone, and game over..After that, you'd be wishing you had never of taken such a risk, and it would be one that will haunt you for life. Some risks in life are not worth taking..

We all agree, they made a mistake but they are the ones who have lived through this, not you

If my hubby and I got dressed up to go out... The second we close that door behind us, leaving our two small children alone, and hop off out to enjoy ourselves, we know that is no mistake, we know what we are doing is risky, and we know its wrong.. But if we do it, it means we don't care enough to worry about what may or may not happen, we would think to ourselves - "Ack sure they be sleeping, we'll be back later, come on lets go".. Truth would be, my hubby and I would know fine well what we would be doing was not right, and we would know fine well it was a risk, everyone does..If we did it, it would be a deliberate risk done out of our own acts of selfishness and carefree attitude, and likely one that could cost us, just like the Mc Cans..That is something no one can seriously deny, not even the McCans..

Like the Mc Cans, what if we did that, and that too went wrong, we faced the same horrors ( worst nightmare ) all because we took a risk, thinking all will be fine? What do you think the authorities would say to us for taking such a stupid risk?...Would they say - Aww don't beat yourself up, it was a mistake? Harldy likely... It can never be a mistake, it was done as a deliberate risk, one that they felt was good enough to get away with and nothing to go wrong, but sadly they were wrong..I bet they wish they had never had taken that risk.. There is a such thing as - We know its wrong, but we'll chance it anyway..!!

Edited August 15, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[Antilles]

Yelling even louder doesn't make you right.

[Aaronsmom]

@ciriuslea: yep, usually the first person/people LE and true crime buffs suspect is a family member. In the case of a missing or murdered child, it's usually the parent/s that are suspected. Statistically, that's who it is most often.

But even "most often" isn't always. I have seen horrendous examples of parents or other family accused (wrongly) of a child's murder, with horrifying consequences--a grieving parent/s serving prison time for a child's murder, only to be exonerated later--perhaps months or even years later--when new evidence comes to light.

I'm thinking now of the murder of Jessica Lundsford, a young girl living with her father and grandparents in a Florida trailer park. The girl wasn't in her bed in the morning and there was no sign of her. The father had spent the night with a girlfriend. Even so, the police suspected and also the grandparents. They all took polygraphs; the police leaked the grandmother's test showed deception. A long ago arrest record on the grandfather was uncovered--something in his early 20s. Because much of the public viewed the family as "trailer trash", combined with the other bits of info, the three of them made easy targets. I remember many denounced the father for spending the might away from home, even though his parents were home with Jessica. Something told me this was not a family crime but a pedophile abduction. The horror of it is, while Jessica's family was being fingered by the police and public, that poor child was enduring the most unspeakable hell not far at all from her home. A registered sex offender who had done time for molesting little girls, but had slipped under LE's radar, kept Jessica captive in a neighboring trailer. When he felt the heat too close, he put the living child in a plastic garbage bag and buried it behind the trailer where he was staying. When the police found Jessica's body, the bag was partly torn up; Jessica had tried to claw her way out of the bag before she suffocated. I can't imagine how those people must feel, knowing what that little girl suffered. <shudder>

I agree the McCanns had no opportunity to so efficiently dispose of their daughter's body that it's never been found. I do think it's possible she could be alive, being held somewhere by an unscrupulous person. If so, I do hope she's found someday. It's awful to think of what her life is like if she is still alive, but that's certainly a better outcome than if she is dead--or never found,

[Moon Gazer]

Hold on. You start off by saying there's no jealousy then you say that Maddy's abduction has publicity because of who the McCanns are and the influence they have. That's not logical.

And I'm not replying now specifically to you but there appears to be a lot of what can I say? putting down of the McCanns especially from the Brits. I don't know the McCanns and I doubt any of you do either. I have posted with someone on another board who lives not far from them and speaks of them in glowing terms.

Doesn't mean much, I know but again, this malignment (I just invented a word!!) of the McCanns is the same as what the Ramseys went through.

We all agree, they made a mistake but they are the ones who have lived through this, not you. I have no idea how much they have suffered and are still suffering but what they did what was apparently a common thing at the time. Unfortunately for them and Maddie, they were targeted.

And Becky's Mom, while you're getting all steamed up about parents leaving their kids alone, sometimes both my parents worked at night and my brother and I were left alone in the house. We didn't burn it down, we didn't hurt each other, we didn't wreck anything and we weren't concerned.

When I said it isn't jealousy, I meant people were not putting the McCaans down because of their social status. It's certainly not jealousy in that way.

With regards to the publicity, I just don't think it's right that one family would get so much publicity based on their social status compared to another family who were more "lower class". Is that jealousy? Maybe so, but not in the same sense as saying someone is jealous because someone has more money or a better job. It's more that I am dissapointed that another family were not given the same chances that the McCaans were given purely because they didn't have the same social status.

With regards to people leaving their kids alone, it's up to the parents. I just know personally I could never live with myself if something horrible happened to my kids all because I wanted a meal and a few drinks with friends. So for that, I would never ever dream of doing it.

Having said that, I remember being a kid and playing out in the street on my own, sitting at on the kerb at the side of the road and I am pretty sure I was as young as 6 or 7. There is no way I would let me 7 year old play out in the street on his own now.

[Moon Gazer]

I agree the McCanns had no opportunity to so efficiently dispose of their daughter's body that it's never been found. I do think it's possible she could be alive, being held somewhere by an unscrupulous person. If so, I do hope she's found someday. It's awful to think of what her life is like if she is still alive, but that's certainly a better outcome than if she is dead--or never found,

I think my biggest hope is that she was targeted by people who trade in children for money, that she was specifically chosen for either a likeness or a particular trait that there maybe was a woman / couple somewhere who wanted to "buy" a child. And that although obviously illegal and a terrible thing, she was sold off to a home where she will actually be loved and looked after.

Sadly, statistics show this probably isn't the case but I hope from the bottom of my heart that it is.

[Aaronsmom]

I think my biggest hope is that she was targeted by people who trade in children for money, that she was specifically chosen for either a likeness or a particular trait that there maybe was a woman / couple somewhere who wanted to "buy" a child. And that although obviously illegal and a terrible thing, she was sold off to a home where she will actually be loved and looked after.

Sadly, statistics show this probably isn't the case but I hope from the bottom of my heart that it is.

That's been my hope all along, and I think it's possible, based on how young she was at the time of her disappearance. You are quite right that although it's a horrible thing if she HAS been bought on the black market adoption circuit, at least she is with people who are taking care of her and not exploiting her sexually. Of course, there are so many whackos out there, who knows what a nutcase who steals a child might be like as a parent? At least it would be the most positive outcome of the scenarios that present themselves.

[Moon Gazer]

That's been my hope all along, and I think it's possible, based on how young she was at the time of her disappearance. You are quite right that although it's a horrible thing if she HAS been bought on the black market adoption circuit, at least she is with people who are taking care of her and not exploiting her sexually. Of course, there are so many whackos out there, who knows what a nutcase who steals a child might be like as a parent? At least it would be the most positive outcome of the scenarios that present themselves.

One of the things that makes me doubtful of that is why not her younger sister? They were similar in looks and surely for that kind of thing, the younger better? We can still hope though.

[Aaronsmom]

I was playing outside by myself at a lot younger than 7! I think I may have been two and a half or three. Not kidding. My mom would put me outside on a nice day after I was dressed in the morning and she would tell me to "go play". I know she wasn't supervising because I ran all over the place. All the way down the block to the park, and more than once I recall wandering off far enough to get lost and someone would eventually come looking for me. But it was a different time then and we lived in a very quiet suburb on the fringes of a rural area. Nobody worried anything would happen to their kids playing alone outside in a quiet little town. This was long before the age of "missing kids on milk cartons". I never let either of my kids play outside unsupervised when they were young. We didn't let the kids go to or from school by themselves either until, I don't remember when. Quite a bit older. I remember waking up from a nap before I was in kindergarten and my mother wasn't home. I called and called, but she didn't answer. I can't remember how long she was away, but she was over at a neighbor's having coffee. I very much doubt it was the first time she did it either. I wouldn't be surprised if she left the doors unlocked too. One of my earliest memories is being outside in a playpen, completely alone, my mother in the house doing who knows what. It's crazy to think of anyone doing that today, even in a quiet suburb. Looking back on it, I think my siblings and I were darn lucky nothing bad ever happened. Our parents too--although they sometimes indicated they wished someone would take us. I doubt they would have liked that really, though. I remember my brother disappeared off the street when he was 6 or so and he was missing a long time. My mother was out looking for him and she was nearly hysterical. He turned up eventually, of course. He had decided to try to find the store to buy candy. LOL Boy, did he catch it too!

[Moon Gazer]

Aaronsmum we used to live in a back to back terrace so the house had no front garden, directly on to the pavement with road a few yards away. As you didn't have a garden, washing was strung across the street very high up. Apparently as a baby I used to love watching the washing blowing in the wind so my mum would leave me in my pushchair outside in the street just outside the front door while she went and made tea. People wouldn't dream of doing that now. I guess there has always been murderers and child molesters and kidnappers about, but I think life seemed safer back then.

[Beckys_Mom]

Yelling even louder doesn't make you right.

No one yelled, but my point is made, and I stand by it.. You couldn't pay me to be so careless to leave my children alone while I go off out for the night..

People wouldn't dream of doing that now. I guess there has always been murderers and child molesters and kidnappers about, but I think life seemed safer back then.

Very true. In my day we never knew what a child molester was, but now? Its all over the place, more people now days are hitting hard at these things going on.. My dad told me that back when he was a kid, child molesters were blanked out by so many, no one cared to kick up a fuss as much as they do now...Some did, but it didn't get the same attention as it does now...In this day and age, people are hitting back harder than ever before..

There is one attitude I know I cannot afford to take and that's - Well, if it didn't happen to me, it wont happen to my own kids.. If I did that, it could cost me a lot of horror and trouble in the long run...Not worth it...

Edited August 15, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[Aaronsmom]

There is a lot more public awareness today. In part, probably because there are just so many more people. But I think a large part of it comes from the advent of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Has anyone suggested a hotel employee?

[Aaronsmom]

One of the things that makes me doubtful of that is why not her younger sister? They were similar in looks and surely for that kind of thing, the younger better? We can still hope though.

Very true. I thought of that too. If whoever took Madelein was part of a black market adoption ring, then I think the younger twins would be a better target. So that doesn't seem like the most likely motive. But who knows?

[Aaronsmom]

Well I saw the show and nothing new really came out. Scotland Yard won't say why they think Madelein could still be alive. Someone interviewed said it might be as simple as SY says she could be alive because they have no evidence to the contrary. OTOH, if they do have more solid evidence to suggest she's alive then it would be stupid and reckless of them to go public with that and get specific. So nothing came from the broadcast that's new. They say they have 38 new leads to follow up on, but I recall hearing there were hundreds in the beginning and none of those panned out. So who knows? It would be great if any of the alleged leads take them somewhere that brings answers. Only time will tell.

[CuriousLittleOne]

might be helpful : photos of the apartment:

[skookum]

Has anyone suggested a hotel employee?

Interesting you should say this. We could start with Charlotte P, who had just started at the creche. She actually arrived on one of the flights the group came on.

She is originally from New Zealand, an actress that has been on a soap over there. Now we get into the coincidences, she grew up in the same town where Kate McCann lived whilst she worked as a doctor in the hospital. Bit of a coincidence but nothing amazing so far until you get to the bit when she did charity work in the same ward!!!

I am of course not saying she had anything to do with it, however she very quickly jumped into the circus. I wonder if the Police where made aware at the time that they very likely knew each other? All of this has come to light since the Police shelved the investigation.

Why did Gerry McCann claim he had no credit cards to the police, then hire a car on one a little latter?

Why did the Government spokesperson immediately leave his post and join the McCann's working for them?

So many unanswered questions, these are just the tip of the iceberg.

[Aaronsmom]

@skookum: I don't understand what you're saying about Charlotte P. how does she figure into things and where are the coincidences?

About Gerry McCann's credit cards: what's your source on your claim McCann told police he had no credit cards? I never heard that before, and it doesn't make sense. Why would he tell police he didn't have credit cards with him? What affluent person doesn't travel with a credit card these days? Who would believe him that he didn't have one? They are staying in a luxury resort. How could they even get the apartment there without a credit card? Further, how would this question relate to looking for his daughter? What motive would McCann have for lying about something so trivial? What are you implying McCann would be hiding by denying he had credit cards? Frankly, the story isn't credible to me.

[Aaronsmom]

Oh also, I don't understand about the government official you say quit to work for the McCanns. Assuming it's true, what meaning do you see this having?

[skookum]

@skookum: I don't understand what you're saying about Charlotte P. how does she figure into things and where are the coincidences?

Read about Charlotte P here.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id70.html

About Gerry McCann's credit cards: what's your source on your claim McCann told police he had no credit cards? I never heard that before, and it doesn't make sense. Why would he tell police he didn't have credit cards with him? What affluent person doesn't travel with a credit card these days? Who would believe him that he didn't have one? They are staying in a luxury resort. How could they even get the apartment there without a credit card? Further, how would this question relate to looking for his daughter? What motive would McCann have for lying about something so trivial? What are you implying McCann would be hiding by denying he had credit cards? Frankly, the story isn't credible to me.

http://steelmagnolia...httpwww_27.html

Oh also, I don't understand about the government official you say quit to work for the McCanns. Assuming it's true, what meaning do you see this having?

Clarence Mitchell read about him here.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id255.html

Might also be worth checking out the CATS 19309 number.

http://goodqualitywr...ry-mccanns.html

Not saying you are wrong but a simple trawl of the net has tonnes of official information released from the PJ files.

Are you still certain they are whiter than white?

Edited August 19, 2013 by skookum

[Aaronsmom]

I don't believe the McCanns are guilting of harming their daughter in any way, other than irresponsibly leaving them alone in their rooms while they dined with friends for a very extended period, far outside visual and hearing range. That was very poor parenting. Other than that, I don't believe for a second the McCanns had anything to do with Madeleine's disappearance, if that's what you mean.

[Regi]

There's not a doubt in my mind that no one could punish the McCann's more than they've punished themselves.

Regardless of what they did or didn't do, blame should be placed solely on the perp!

I'm having trouble with posting a link to a documentary.

The doc. is called Madeleine Was Here and it can be found at topdocumentaryfilms.com (crime category, page 6).

Edited August 19, 2013 by regi

[Aaronsmom]

Very true, Regi. I'm sure they have punished themselves more than anyone else could, and certainly have been punished brutally for a bad judgment call....which all of us make from time to time.

My only real point is I don't believe for a second Madeleine wasn't abducted from her room by a stranger breaking in. This is NOT on the parents. It's doubly brutal for them that they have endured accusations from the public for 6 years.

[skookum]

Very true, Regi. I'm sure they have punished themselves more than anyone else could, and certainly have been punished brutally for a bad judgment call....which all of us make from time to time.

My only real point is I don't believe for a second Madeleine wasn't abducted from her room by a stranger breaking in. This is NOT on the parents. It's doubly brutal for them that they have endured accusations from the public for 6 years.

Why did they lie so much then?

Why did the dogs discover cadaver odour in the apartment and hire car?

None of it adds up to me.