The repercussions of being Atheist

[Frank Merton]

That joke is long played out.. I used to laugh at it 10 years ago !!

Aw, it was new to me and I liked it. Fresher than, "I'd rather be in Philadelphia."

[Doug1029]

When you say "Most religions are a bunch of man made silliness" I Agree and I would replace Most with All. Can't we do Good without asking for Heaven ?, Kill people for 72 Virgins in heaven ?. Would we when there is a promise of none ?

If memory serves, the word that got translated as "virgins" actually meant "grapes." There are going to be some disappointed jihadists in Paradise.

Doug

[ambelamba]

If memory serves, the word that got translated as "virgins" actually meant "grapes." There are going to be some disappointed jihadists in Paradise.

Doug

No. It's actually Trekkies.

[Mr Walker]

No. It's actually Trekkies.

Well yes of course, all trekkies go to paradise, but why would they be disappointed

[+Liquid Gardens]

I do not ask others to "believe" as i do because i have no belief as such. But i do tell them honestly that i don't believe in a constructed god; rather i know a very real physical and powerful being who interacts with me on a daily basis, to protect, mentor, guide and empower me.

I call that physical and powerful being, "Mr Walker" (who is 'powerful' from the perspective of Mr Walker of course).

But what i speak is always the truth as i know it. Nothing else is worth speaking, because only the truth is an effective tool, and only a human being who always speaks the truth as they know it, can be trusted.

Another term used by most people for a lot of what is expressed as 'the truth as I know it' is 'belief'.

... if i do not speak the truth I cannot be trusted and might as well say nothing.

We don't live in a world with so much certainty that really lends itself to this though, there is a ton that is not certain. Thus there is a lot of progress that is made simply by the exchange of beliefs and just ideas and theories about unproven topics; staying silent unless you know it's the 'truth' stifles that.

[Mr Walker]

I call that physical and powerful being, "Mr Walker" (who is 'powerful' from the perspective of Mr Walker of course).

Another term used by most people for a lot of what is expressed as 'the truth as I know it' is 'belief'.

We don't live in a world with so much certainty that really lends itself to this though, there is a ton that is not certain. Thus there is a lot of progress that is made simply by the exchange of beliefs and just ideas and theories about unproven topics; staying silent unless you know it's the 'truth' stifles that.

God is not me, although god dwells in part within me. I am not god although i am a part of god. God also exists beyond me it reaches across the universe and is connected to all self aware entities.

Originally I sort of wanted "it" to be me. A sort of mutant superhuman but even at that young age I could differentiate fanasy from reality. I don't have the abilities within my self to read minds, see the future, know things beyond my experience, travel through the solar system etc. And yet I can and have done all these things.

I don't have the ability, as a singular and isolated human mind/being, to perform physical miracles transforming matter and energy. I only have limited powers over my mind and body, and so, only limited abilty to heal my self.

The other powers and abilities are a natural result of my connection to the mind of god, (the cosmic consciousness) and via that mind to all the universe and to the minds of other humans living and dead. This connection, in my experince and opinion, is available to any mind which seeks it and is open to it

What i was granted, first in "contacting" the universal consciousness, and secondly via the physical manifestation of god in my life (about ten years later) was beyond natural unassisted human ability. In fact WAY beyond. For example, how many human minds can manifest a light so bright that i turns night into day and is more powerful tha 10000 watts of spot light visible for miles. That was the single occurence which illustrated to me that the cosmic consciousness also has physical power over our environment, as well as considerable mental powers, and decided me, once and for all, that the abilites of my youth did not come from my mind, but from an alien entity.

So i had to admit fairly quickly, that while it was connected to me, this was an independent sapient and powerful entity.

Throughout my life my physical connection to this entity confirmed this reality in ways, from saving my life directly many times, to giving me skills and abilities which humans can't have, without access to an outside mind that " transcends" both time and space.

"Truth as I know and understand it " simply means i do not lie. I might be mistaken but i am a very intelligent, quite old/ wise, and very experienced person. I read a lot (over a million words a week) I almost never make mistakes in my mundane life. So basically ,I have considerable confidence in my judgement because i am almost always confirmed correct in it.

But i am pointing out that my knowledge and certainty does have limits. And others might interpet similar experiences and knowledge differently to me.

Oh yes, we can discuss beliefs and ideas, openly and honestly. I was saying that I have no reason to lie, and good reason never to lie.

If my words are not trusted, then what point is there in me speaking? That is my choice and my ethical decision. If i need to lie to convince someone, then it is better that I do not speak. Only truth advances knowledge and reason.

I would like every human being to gain access to the cosmic consciousness and the empowerments and abilities it brings to mind and body. I think it would hugely improve the human condition, just as it has improved and empowered my own life, over fifty years or so.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

God is not me, although god dwells in part within me. I am not god although i am a part of god. God also exists beyond me it reaches across the universe and is connected to all self aware entities.

Originally I sort of wanted "it" to be me. A sort of mutant superhuman but even at that young age I could differentiate fanasy from reality. I don't have the abilities within my self to read minds, see the future, know things beyond my experience, travel through the solar system etc. And yet I can and have done all these things.

I don't have the ability, as a singular and isolated human mind/being, to perform physical miracles transforming matter and energy. I only have limited powers over my mind and body, and so, only limited abilty to heal my self.

The other powers and abilities are a natural result of my connection to the mind of god, (the cosmic consciousness) and via that mind to all the universe and to the minds of other humans living and dead. This connection, in my experince and opinion, is available to any mind which seeks it and is open to it

What i was granted, first in "contacting" the universal consciousness, and secondly via the physical manifestation of god in my life (about ten years later) was beyond natural unassisted human ability. In fact WAY beyond. For example, how many human minds can manifest a light so bright that i turns night into day and is more powerful tha 10000 watts of spot light visible for miles. That was the single occurence which illustrated to me that the cosmic consciousness also has physical power over our environment, as well as considerable mental powers, and decided me, once and for all, that the abilites of my youth did not come from my mind, but from an alien entity.

So i had to admit fairly quickly, that while it was connected to me, this was an independent sapient and powerful entity.

Throughout my life my physical connection to this entity confirmed this reality in ways, from saving my life directly many times, to giving me skills and abilities which humans can't have, without access to an outside mind that " transcends" both time and space.

"Truth as I know and understand it " simply means i do not lie. I might be mistaken but i am a very intelligent, quite old/ wise, and very experienced person. I read a lot (over a million words a week) I almost never make mistakes in my mundane life. So basically ,I have considerable confidence in my judgement because i am almost always confirmed correct in it.

But i am pointing out that my knowledge and certainty does have limits. And others might interpet similar experiences and knowledge differently to me.

Oh yes, we can discuss beliefs and ideas, openly and honestly. I was saying that I have no reason to lie, and good reason never to lie.

If my words are not trusted, then what point is there in me speaking? That is my choice and my ethical decision. If i need to lie to convince someone, then it is better that I do not speak. Only truth advances knowledge and reason.

I would like every human being to gain access to the cosmic consciousness and the empowerments and abilities it brings to mind and body. I think it would hugely improve the human condition, just as it has improved and empowered my own life, over fifty years or so.

MW quotes:

"But it is I who consciously decide and create those realities and paramaeters within any constructed reality, whereas in the mundane world they are objectively existent and demonstrably so. One simple example. In any form of subjectively created world, if given a rational basis for doing so I can fly without assistance (not likely in a western for example unless that western was set in another reality.) But in the mundane world, so far I cannot. The closest i can get to that experience in the mundane world is hang gliding and scuba diving but the physical sensations from these experiences can be transfered to a constructed world just as riding a horse bareback can be transferred to riding a dragon bareback.

"So, put together the memories of riding a horse bareback and hang gliding through clouds, and you havee a construct of riding a dragon bareback through clouds, which you can then use in your imagination dreams or writing as if it was real."

To be fair MW you quote above to me in a post how you make all this stuff up using your imagination. You give examples of how you do this how you use your imagination to come up come up with your subjective reality. It is clear in this same post you know that in reality you can't fly/walk through walls but in your mind you can. Anyone could use their own imagination to do the same things you claim.

How do you discern the difference between your imagination and reality?

[Zaphod222]

Thus many religions prosper and endure because they meet the most basic of human needs.

I would argue that the world´s main religions simply exist because children are born into them and indoctrinated from an early age. And in case of islam, that is even laid down as law. In Shariah countries, you are born as muslim, period. And "leaving" the religion is punished by death. I would say that is a simpler explanation for the growth of that particular one than "meeting basic human needs"....

Belief needs no proofs. Actually belief canot exist in the presence of proofs as non belief cannot exist.

I think you are confusing the concepts of "belief" and "faith". Look up the distinction.

[Mr Walker]

MW quotes:

"But it is I who consciously decide and create those realities and paramaeters within any constructed reality, whereas in the mundane world they are objectively existent and demonstrably so. One simple example. In any form of subjectively created world, if given a rational basis for doing so I can fly without assistance (not likely in a western for example unless that western was set in another reality.) But in the mundane world, so far I cannot. The closest i can get to that experience in the mundane world is hang gliding and scuba diving but the physical sensations from these experiences can be transfered to a constructed world just as riding a horse bareback can be transferred to riding a dragon bareback.

"So, put together the memories of riding a horse bareback and hang gliding through clouds, and you havee a construct of riding a dragon bareback through clouds, which you can then use in your imagination dreams or writing as if it was real."

To be fair MW you quote above to me in a post how you make all this stuff up using your imagination. You give examples of how you do this how you use your imagination to come up come up with your subjective reality. It is clear in this same post you know that in reality you can't fly/walk through walls but in your mind you can. Anyone could use their own imagination to do the same things you claim.

How do you discern the difference between your imagination and reality?

I just spent an entire post explaining how i do this.

[Mr Walker]

I would argue that the world´s main religions simply exist because children are born into them and indoctrinated from an early age. And in case of islam, that is even laid down as law. In Shariah countries, you are born as muslim, period. And "leaving" the religion is punished by death. I would say that is a simpler explanation for the growth of that particular one than "meeting basic human needs"....

I think you are confusing the concepts of "belief" and "faith". Look up the distinction.

That doesn't make people believe. Belief can only be a choice. Others can force you to ACT a certain way but not to think in a certain way.

I've already quoted the dictionary definions of belief. Belief is a construct .Belief can only exist without enough evidences to create knowledge.

Faith is a mechanism by which we can chose a belief. Logic is another way we can chose a belief. But if we KNOW, we cannot believe or disbelieve, without being irrational. Study "the construction of human belief"

Edited July 5, 2013 by Mr Walker

[spacecowboy342]

To answer your question in the OP. The only real repercussion of being an atheist is that you cut yourself off from god and his connection to you, and all the empowerment and increase in human potential being connected to a powerful entity gives a human being

An atheist can be everything a theist can be, EXCEPT empowered by god, and a physical connection to god. (unless god decides to empower them anyway)

That is (in my experience) a huge limitation on an individual's human potential and ability. But those who chose not to believe are rarely given the opportunity to experience this empowement and enhancement, and so have nothing to compare their life as an atheist with. However wonderful and great a life is as an individual being, body and mind, it is better connected to god.

A theist can no more be empowered by God than a theist as He, She, It, as they don't exist

[brlesq1]

This is why I stay away from discussions of this sort. I have my own beliefs, and that's that.

[DBunker]

Hi, Spock.... I wonder why you sign every post with your SIG when it says so right there over your avatar???

[Frank Merton]

I think maybe it's a bit too much to say that the atheist "cuts oneself off from God." In fact that strikes me as highly arrogant, as though it would be possible to do such a thing if such a being existed.

I already know the stock response to that -- "free will," so don't bother trying to persuade me with that particular bit of illogical nonsense. It leads to insoluble logical contradictions, and I feel when a teaching is internally contradictory then it is necessarily false.

[Mr Walker]

A theist can no more be empowered by God than a theist as He, She, It, as they don't exist

Let us supose you are factually incorrect; then you are wrong. God physically exists and physically empowers and protects me. I know this as clearly, and using the same evidences as I know my wife exists.

But, secondly, you are wrong even if god does notphysically exist but exists only as a mental construct.. The mere, but total, belief in a god whether or not one exists, creates real world physical and psychological empowerments including; pain reduction, longer life, better health, and more specifically, greater happiness for patients in nursing homes. ALL facts established by science.

[Zaphod222]

But it does say a lot about the style of preaching that goes on here for the religious people, I am happy at least it is not Kill the non-believer kind of thing.

And that, for me, is the decisive point. I have no problem with nuttiness, as long as it harmless.

But by and large, when I watch modern atheists (like e.g. in the "Atheist Experience" show), they are so busy bashing Christianity, which does no harm, while ignoring the real massive problem out there, which is islam.

Besides barking up the wrong tree, this represents cowardice to me. They take candy from babies, instead of addressing the real issue.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Zaphod222

[spacecowboy342]

Let us supose you are factually incorrect; then you are wrong. God physically exists and physically empowers and protects me. I know this as clearly, and using the same evidences as I know my wife exists.

But, secondly, you are wrong even if god does notphysically exist but exists only as a mental construct.. The mere, but total, belief in a god whether or not one exists, creates real world physical and psychological empowerments including; pain reduction, longer life, better health, and more specifically, greater happiness for patients in nursing homes. ALL facts established by science.

I will concede that if I am factually incorrect then I am wrong but in the second case I think you are wrong because then you are crediting God for empowerment that actually comes from inside you and can be duplicated in other ways. But my earlier statement might have been a little harsh. God could exist. I just find my empowerment in other ways

[Mr Walker]

I think maybe it's a bit too much to say that the atheist "cuts oneself off from God." In fact that strikes me as highly arrogant, as though it would be possible to do such a thing if such a being existed.

I already know the stock response to that -- "free will," so don't bother trying to persuade me with that particular bit of illogical nonsense. It leads to insoluble logical contradictions, and I feel when a teaching is internally contradictory then it is necessarily false.

Let us supose that god exists only as a mental construct . Then an athiest mentally cuts them self off from this construct and all the benefits accruing from it.

Let us supoose god exists, but god's physical relationship withh a human is determined by the humans attitude to god (just as it works for human beings relationships with each other. If i cut myself off from my wife emotionally and physically there is little she can do about it) If god is real but I cut myslef off from god by refusing to accept his reality or listen to him or communicate with him, then again god cannot easily force himself into my life.

ANd thirdly. Suppose god does exist and does force his physical presence into my life (as indeed he has done) IT is STILL up to me how I respond. A confirmed and absolute athiest might well deny the existence of god depite any physical evidences and construct alternative realities beliefs in an attempt to stay sane and maintain the coherence of their world view.

I do not see where free will is an issue here, although scientifically, logically and philosophically, given the natrue of human sapience/cognitive abilty, free will and free choice is, to me, a given. Our evolutionary development could not have come about once we became cognitively aware, if we were not able to make free willed choices based on data and acquired comparative understandings, and respond freely to our inner and outer environments. One cannot evolve beyond a basic level of cognitive development without free will.

[Mr Walker]

I will concede that if I am factually incorrect then I am wrong but in the second case I think you are wrong because then you are crediting God for empowerment that actually comes from inside you and can be duplicated in other ways. But my earlier statement might have been a little harsh. God could exist. I just find my empowerment in other ways

True; some empowerments can be created in other ways including study, discipline, work and time. But belief gives them to everyone/anyone; simply, immediately, and without effort. No comparison in my mind. The empowerments simply come from belief but also from the fact that people who believe, then act and shape their life to those beliefs creating better outcomes without effort.

Of course, in my experience, god is physically and mentally in me, and I am physically and mentally in god, so I agree that ALL which we are comes from within us, but that it also comes from god.

[spacecowboy342]

True; some empowerments can be created in other ways including study, discipline, work and time. But belief gives them to everyone/anyone; simply, immediately, and without effort. No comparison in my mind. The empowerments simply come from belief but also from the fact that people who believe, then act and shape their life to those beliefs creating better outcomes without effort.

Of course, in my experience, god is physically and mentally in me, and I am physically and mentally in god, so I agree that ALL which we are comes from within us, but that it also comes from god.

Belief in God may give empowerment without effort as you say but then you have to live a life of delusion(IMO) I would prefer to make whatever effort required to live my life by rationality and not superstition

[ShadowSot]

But by and large, when I watch modern atheists (like e.g. in the "Atheist Experience" show), they are so busy bashing Christianity, which does no harm, while ignoring the real massive problem out there, which is islam.

Atheist Experience responds to their callers. Most of their callers are christian. hence most of their responses are to Christians. Because this is a country in which Christianity is the majority.

They do have called who are Muslim or Hindu or other, and they give them the same as the Christians.

And as I've mentioned previously, Atheists have and continue to attack Islam, which is why if you search for New Atheists you pick up plenty of links to Islamaphobia.

[+Liquid Gardens]

Let us supose that god exists only as a mental construct . Then an athiest mentally cuts them self off from this construct and all the benefits accruing from it.

And cuts himself off from the detriments also, and enjoys the all the corresponding benefits of atheism.

Let us supoose god exists, but god's physical relationship withh a human is determined by the humans attitude to god (just as it works for human beings relationships with each other. If i cut myself off from my wife emotionally and physically there is little she can do about it) If god is real but I cut myslef off from god by refusing to accept his reality or listen to him or communicate with him, then again god cannot easily force himself into my life.

God can easily do anything, he is not confined in any way by your understanding of him. I have no expectation that our relationships with other humans should at all be indicative of how our relationship with a supreme God should operate, not sure why you do.

ANd thirdly. Suppose god does exist and does force his physical presence into my life (as indeed he has done) IT is STILL up to me how I respond. A confirmed and absolute athiest might well deny the existence of god depite any physical evidences and construct alternative realities beliefs in an attempt to stay sane and maintain the coherence of their world view.

There are an almost infinite number of ways that God could 'force his presence' into any person's life, atheist or not, that would make his existence nearly undeniable.

Our evolutionary development could not have come about once we became cognitively aware, if we were not able to make free willed choices based on data and acquired comparative understandings, and respond freely to our inner and outer environments. One cannot evolve beyond a basic level of cognitive development without free will.

That's fine but this is pure opinion, I see no reason why free will is required to evolve beyond a basic level of cognitive development, that makes little sense and is not at all required. Simply name one example of cognitive development that could not have developed without free will, and explain what physically is preventing the alternative of essentially programmed algorithms in our brain from achieving this, or the illusion of it. Sorry man, we have no idea if anything that we think or do is categorically any different as far as being deterministic compared to lower animals; it might simply be that we have more elaborate programming than them and no actual 'free will'.

[Leonardo]

Let us supose that god exists only as a mental construct . Then an athiest mentally cuts them self off from this construct and all the benefits accruing from it.

Not necessarily. If god exists only as a mental construct, then an atheist could simply have a different construct (or several) to provide any "mental benefits" a belief in god would bring. Secular Humanism is an example of this.

[Mr Walker]

Belief in God may give empowerment without effort as you say but then you have to live a life of delusion(IMO) I would prefer to make whatever effort required to live my life by rationality and not superstition

First. How do you KNOW what is delusion and what is reality? And secondly, if a delusion brings positive results, is that not better than a perceived reality which brings harmful results.

[Mr Walker]

Not necessarily. If god exists only as a mental construct, then an atheist could simply have a different construct (or several) to provide any "mental benefits" a belief in god would bring. Secular Humanism is an example of this.

I was a secular humnist for two decades Secular humanism is an advance on atheism, because, in its philosophical manifesto, it contains and promotes positive beliefs, values, outcomes and ethics. Even so it does NOT grant the measurable benefits to human beings which a belief does.