Trumka Sweetheart ObamaCare Deal : Doomed

[Frank Merton]

The dangers and unhealthy conditions were just part of the primitiveness and lack of productivity. There are always those who take safety shortcuts, and so on, and more responsible owners have to compete with them. Technology and government safety and health regulation has had more to do with this than unions. Indeed, unions often get in the way.

I'm aware that there has been several generations hearing union indoctrination on the matter, bit that doesn't make it true.

[Gromdor]

The dangers and unhealthy conditions were just part of the primitiveness and lack of productivity. There are always those who take safety shortcuts, and so on, and more responsible owners have to compete with them. Technology and government safety and health regulation has had more to do with this than unions. Indeed, unions often get in the way.

I'm aware that there has been several generations hearing union indoctrination on the matter, bit that doesn't make it true.

Ah but here is the thing. I am not part of a union family and I have worked both non-union and union in the construction industry. Let me assure you I have still seen these safety shortcuts, primitiveness and lack of productivity that you speak of still going on. I've seen people use forklifts to lift a double set of scaffolding poles to lift a pipe 20 feet in the air. I've seen construction workers walk on a pipe 200 ft in the air without fall protection. I've seen people working in green rain at a chemical plant. Some people died, some were crippled. It is the hazards of the job.

That being said, without a 0% unemployment rate the nonunion worker has no leverage in trying to avoid these situations. He can quit, his family will go hungry and his boss will just hire someone else to do it. At least with the union, the workers can collectively say, " Hell no!"

[Frank Merton]

At least you have forklifts.

When there is 0% unemployment, workers get greedy and soon you have labor caused inflation, followed by a crash.

There is always a trade-off between good working conditions and employability. That is why government has to take responsibility for worker safety. Otherwise unsafe employers beat out the safe ones (as a general rule, since injuries are horrible on morale).

Edited September 15, 2013 by Frank Merton

[Gromdor]

The only thing Americans seem to hate more than unions these days is more government oversight.

[Simbi Laveau]

Mostly because the only chance of survival they had is being run by the mob. The establishment did its best to run any form of organization that used only legit means into the ground.

Not all unions are corrupt, and not all are run by the mob

[Simbi Laveau]

Unions didn't start because the workers wanted more pay, it started because companies were treating labor quite literally like disposable resources. Research the meat packing, mining, construction, and textile industries. The death toll is staggering. My union has a lot of millionaires in it. It's called the Heat and Frost Insulators Union. It used to have a different name- Heat and Frost Asbestos workers. My co-workers would gladly trade that million dollars to get their dad or grandpa back. How many years did the industry know that asbestos was bad for you before it was finally outlawed?

The best thing about automation is that it is actually taking people out of harms way in many cases.

An interesting side note. Have you noticed that the high risk of fatality industries are also the one that hire the highest percentage of documented workers?

Run Run Shaw made all those great golden harvest martial arts movies like Five Fingers of Death etc, and those guys all lived in dirt shacks.

The Shaw brothers made millions, and these guys lived in filth.

When Bruce Lee starting making a rumble, he tried to unionize those guys.

Told them all they were being used like cattle when they were the talent.

It's said, it's the Shaw brothers who had Bruce killed, for trying to do this.

It's the one story I actually believe about his death.

[Frank Merton]

Not all unions are corrupt, and not all are run by the mob

I don't think anyone said that: stop with the straw man.

[Simbi Laveau]

I don't think anyone said that: stop with the straw man.

Uhhh, look at your own post. It used the word ALL.

Edit

OK my mistake, 'so often' .... Same thing, especially from a non American .

I've belonged to at least four unions, and a few of my friends are teamsters.

Most of them bigger unions in America.

We tend to have no problems and great benefits so....

Edited September 15, 2013 by Simbi Laveau

[Frank Merton]

Well I asked why "so many" are corrupt. I also said Henry Ford did more for workers than all unions. Those are the only places I can find that you might use for your falsehood here. Thanks for wasting my time.

[Frank Merton]

You still here Mr. Laveau?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

The best thing about automation is that it is actually taking people out of harms way in many cases.

And putting them in the way of a whole different type of harm.

I'm thinking of fingers and hands eaten by printing presses for example - which didn't happen when you were manually pressing each page.

[supervike]

Unions helped at first. Now they have become a liability. They drove wages so high that GM went bankrupt.

The unions did this?

Labor contracts are two way streets. I believe GM had it's say in those wages as well. GM also made some horrendous decisions, financially and logistically.

To blame it on the Unions is only telling half of the bigger story.

Unionists do not want to see their employers go bankrupt, that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Unionists just want a fair representation of what they provide for the companies they work for. I don't see how that is greedy, corrupt, or out of line.

[Simbi Laveau]

Well I asked why "so many" are corrupt. I also said Henry Ford did more for workers than all unions. Those are the only places I can find that you might use for your falsehood here. Thanks for wasting my time.

It's no longer the 1960s as far as all the unions in the USA are concerned.

Belong to one before you talk out of the left side of your mouth, some more.

[questionmark]

GM also made some horrendous decisions, financially and logistically.

You forgot technically, because what they built in the last years before the crisis was certainly sub-standard.

[Jeremiah65]

You forgot technically, because what they built in the last years before the crisis was certainly sub-standard.

That's true and sad.

Germany made cars are expensive but known for their quality and longevity.

Japanese cars are also built to last...the people and the corporations (mainly Honda and Toyota) were more interested in a good quality product and selling something to be proud of.

Our car makers were more concerned with making a disposable car that you would need to replace in 7 years or so. Had it been cheap...like a Yugo or something...that would have been one thing,,,but they weren't (aren't) cheap. The repair costs if you try to keep one beyond 120k miles is almost counter productive. In some cases it is.

I have 350,000 miles on my 96 Accord...I rest my case.

Edited September 15, 2013 by Jeremiah65

[Frank Merton]

It's no longer the 1960s as far as all the unions in the USA are concerned.

Belong to one before you talk out of the left side of your mouth, some more.

Ah I would think you would be ashamed to show your face on this thread.

[Frank Merton]

The real cause of GM's trouble was its pensions, for which you can blame the unions and a management that pushed the union into the future rather than take a strike. The work rules and high salaries also played a role.

One message above mentioned hand presses being less dangerous than mechanized presses. Well, it all depends. Have you ever used a hand press? There are no absolutes, but as a general rule greater productivity enables management to make the workplace safer and more pleasant.

[questionmark]

That's true and sad.

Germany made cars are expensive but known for their quality and longevity.

Japanese cars are also built to last...the people and the corporations (mainly Honda and Toyota) were more interested in a good quality product and selling something to be proud of.

Our car makers were more concerned with making a disposable car that you would need to replace in 7 years or so. Had it been cheap...like a Yugo or something...that would have been one thing,,,but they weren't (aren't) cheap. The repair costs if you try to keep one beyond 120k miles is almost counter productive. In some cases it is.

I have 350,000 miles on my 96 Accord...I rest my case.

The problem was not cheap, in 2007 I had a rental car that you had to stop 50 yards before the traffic light or you could not see the overhead signal turning green (I think it was a Dodge). Opel was in direct competition with Mercedes in the 1950s, in the 1970s it was competing with Volkswagen, in the 1990s with Yugo. Nowadays they manage to sell cars in the lower price segment competing with the Chinese. And for what happened in Germany you certainly can't blame the (US) unions. All those problems were made at home by incompetent management.

[Jeremiah65]

The real cause of GM's trouble was its pensions, for which you can blame the unions and a management that pushed the union into the future rather than take a strike. The work rules and high salaries also played a role.

No, it was not "the real cause"...it was a part of the problem...perhaps...

Gigantic salaries and bonuses to execs didn't help...not investing in and producing a superior quality product didn't help...

There was no "one cause" that led to Detroit's automaker woes...it was a mish-mash of bad decision making and unforeseen tragedy...like who ever would of thunk that the Kia and the Hyundai would be such nice vehicles at reasonable prices?

I still love the old USA made cars...the 57 Chevy Bel-Air...the 67 Chevelle, the 69 Chevelle...the 69 Ford Mustang...the 73 Mach one Mustang...the old 1967 and 1969 Pontiac GTO...The 1973 Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme...etc...etc...etc. These were great cars. Easy to work on and reliable...

It's like after the gas crunch in the 70's and they downsized everything...when the crunch was over and they "up sized' everything...the quality was gone and it never came back.

[Frank Merton]

American corporate management stinks, with a few exceptions. Rules banning any influence by management on the board and rules keeping stockholders from being able to replace board members at will by majority vote are needed. Right now relationships are too cozy and as a result management that doesn't perform stays and management perks continue to explode.

So management is part of the problem, but unions do not escape either. They are also undemocratic and often corrupt (maybe not to the level of organized crime but still corrupt). Managements that take strikes and even break them, like Caterpillar, is what is needed. Both management and the employees work for the stockholders.

[CyberKen]

The real cause of GM's trouble was its pensions, for which you can blame the unions and a management that pushed the union into the future rather than take a strike. The work rules and high salaries also played a role.

One message above mentioned hand presses being less dangerous than mechanized presses. Well, it all depends. Have you ever used a hand press? There are no absolutes, but as a general rule greater productivity enables management to make the workplace safer and more pleasant.

Now GM is Government Motors.

The bond holders got screwed. During the bankruptcy they got 10 cents on the dollar. Remember?

Ford is a better company.

[CyberKen]

The unions did this?

Labor contracts are two way streets. I believe GM had it's say in those wages as well. GM also made some horrendous decisions, financially and logistically.

To blame it on the Unions is only telling half of the bigger story.

Unionists do not want to see their employers go bankrupt, that would be cutting off your nose to spite your face. Unionists just want a fair representation of what they provide for the companies they work for. I don't see how that is greedy, corrupt, or out of line.

Unions deserve half of the blame.

It was very easy to see the GM Train Wreck coming.

[ninjadude]

Belong to one before you talk out of the left side of your mouth, some more.

Millions do and are very happy about it

[ninjadude]

Now GM is Government Motors.

No. It's not/

[ninjadude]

Unions deserve half of the blame.

Management deserves the other half. So really you are not saying anything.