questionmark Posted September 16, 2013 #26 Share Posted September 16, 2013 The stats show that young Americans are not the problem. They don't get sick like older Americans. Yeh? The stats show that they cause more accidents. To the contrary of older Americans. And healing human casualties of a car accident is much more expensive and guilty parties are not covered by car insurance. Again: emergency room at my expense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberKen Posted September 16, 2013 Author #27 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Yeh? The stats show that they cause more accidents. To the contrary of older Americans. And healing human casualties of a car accident is much more expensive and guilty parties are not covered by car insurance. Again: emergency room at my expense. 90% of Americans were satisfied with the old system. That's good enough for me. Leave the young Americans alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted September 16, 2013 #28 Share Posted September 16, 2013 90% of Americans were satisfied with the old system. That's good enough for me. Leave the young Americans alone. Could you link to that? Because it seems to me that over 70% don't want Obamacare abolished. More than half of the 53% just want it more effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah65 Posted September 16, 2013 #29 Share Posted September 16, 2013 (edited) Someone needs to learn to read better...not sure which part of things the scan readers missed.... You can take your forced purchasing and jump off the nearest rooftop...you folks make me sick to my stomach. I deal with auto insurance because....it is part of the "privilege" of driving...yes, driving a car is not and has never been a "right". I might not agree with that, but it has always been that way so deal with it as best your brain can. I can't believe a wise @ss punctuation entity missed my posts about what socialism actually is...but he is clever that way...he chooses to ignore most of what I have to say most of the time. He only agrees with those that seem to absolutely hate true freedom. I love how he tries to walk both sides of the fence on nearly every issue...never taking a stand for anything..."If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything".... I choose to be free. You and your ilk cannot ever take that from me. I live free every day and will continue to live that way until I get bottlenecked and caught. This mandatory purchase of an unnecessary product is a farce. You tried to dump the "what if this guy gets hurt and the hospital overbills my insurance"...that is not how it works Einstein...they claim their losses in taxes...which effects our taxes...not your stupid insurance rates. The hospitals over charge insurance companies because it takes them so long to get paid by the greedy b@stards running the accounts payable arm of insurance. Has nothing to do with the people that cannot afford to pay. The GOV has long had a policy about denying service to emergency room visitors...can't do it. It gets bled out in their taxes...profit and loss statements. I would have thought such lofty minds would know these things. irregardless, being forced to buy something "NOT" related to a privilege is a violation of our human rights...IMHO....I know...more of the sheep like it than dislike it...but we that "dislike" it are growing and one day...we will get this abomination thrown out. Fine...you want socialized medicine...then you make socialized schools of medicine...you take a test and if you have the apptitude...you go...you learn...you practice...that is how they do it in those horrible places with the happiest citizens on the planet... make me so ill and angry....I almost cannot stand it! Edited September 16, 2013 by Jeremiah65 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted September 16, 2013 #30 Share Posted September 16, 2013 This mandatory purchase of an unnecessary product is a farce. I, as I have said above, would agree if in return you would not accept any medical services you can't pay for. I don't mind people being free. I just mind that being free for some is the equivalent of a free ride. If you are a risk you either do something to avoid being one or you create a backup for the case that the occasion arises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah65 Posted September 16, 2013 #31 Share Posted September 16, 2013 (edited) I, hardly ever go to the doctor. I was raised different. I know how to take care of myself. I know, that might not sound convincing...but I can tell you that even at (now as of friday) I am 48...I have not been to the doctor in the last 5 years...not once. Why should I pay (retract that...my insurance comes through my wife's work at a decent rate) have to pay a thousand bucks a month when I might only have a 2 or 3 hundred dollar bill a year...or in my case...a 200 dollar bill in 5 years? lemme see....12,000 a year for 5 years = 60,000 dollars and I have used a couple hundred bucks....I think I can pay...thank you very much. Why should I and the "young invincibles" be forced to pay for the fat @sses who do not take care of themselves and are genuinely not healthy? Why should that be my burden to bear? I eat right...I do not drink soda...I do smoke cigars here and there but that is a price I expect to pay for one day...It will kill me. I am not expecting "humanity" to buy me new lungs or cancer treatments...if I die, I die....are you going to miss me when I am gone?...i seriously doubt it....so why should someone pay for my choices? Your continuing arguments straddling the fence are getting very old...take a stand...let your position be known...or are you afraid the "group" will reject it? Edited September 16, 2013 by Jeremiah65 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esoteric Toad Posted September 16, 2013 #32 Share Posted September 16, 2013 (edited) It is a strange thing. At one point I felt that the government should stay as much out of our lives as possible. This obviously included our medical care. I also had a job with really good medical insurance. I had no experience living without insurance (when it mattered). It wasn't so much that I didn't care about people who did not have medical insurance or the ability to afford medical care. It was born of not being in that position for my entire life (In my forties now). Then my wife had a surgery go wrong. Even with medical insurance we were slowly bled to death by the costs. Then I was laid off after 11 years in the aerospace industry. I have never had a huge nest egg but it was in the 10's of thousands and slowly over 8 years I now have nothing. My wife passed away a few months ago. My credit has been destroyed and I have zero resources to work with. I do not know enough about Obamacare honestly. What I have learned in the most horrible way possible is that for those who believe that no one looses everything or goes without medical care in America has likely never had the experience I have had to endure. I am not saying the answer is Obamacare but what I do grow so tired of is the complete lack of any alternatives by those that completely oppose it. I will freely admit I do not know the solution but I can say that my wife and I went from being able to pay our bills to having to decide between which medications we could afford. The programs in place to help took too long to qualify for and even then the costs were prohibitive. So it does happen in America. People who work, save and plan as best they can end up bankrupt by medical costs. The damage goes far beyond the financial. The emotion stress of not know how one can afford there needed medical care is likely responsibly for infinitely more damage than can be imagined. I would NEVER wish this upon anyone. Even those who stand behind their medical insurance and tell me that there are programs and help out there for people who end up trying to make ends meet when they haven't a clue what is really there and is not. Edited....but didn't change anything Edited September 16, 2013 by Esoteric Toad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted September 16, 2013 #33 Share Posted September 16, 2013 I, hardly ever go to the doctor. I was raised different. I know how to take care of myself. I know, that might now sound convincing...but I can tel you that even at (now as of friday) I am 48...I have not been to the doctor in the last 5 years...not once. Why should I pay (retract that...my insurance comes through my wife's work at a decent rate) have to pay a thousand bucks a month when I might only have a 2 or 3 hundred dollar bill a year...or in my case...a 200 dollar bill in 5 years? lemme see....12,000 a year for 5 years = 60,000 dollars and I have used a couple hundred bucks....I think I can pay...thank you very much. Why should I and the "young invincibles" be forced to pay for the fat @sses who do not take care of themselves and are genuinely not healthy? Why should that be my burden to bear? I eat right...I do not drink soda...I do smoke cigars here and there but that is a price I expect to pay for one day...It will kill me. I am not expecting "humanity" to buy me new lungs or cancer treatments...if I die, I die....are you going to miss me when I am gone?...i seriously doubt it....so why should someone pay for my choices? It only takes a broken leg during your next forest hike to have an equivalent bill of 2-3 annual salaries. I would agree that those who don't cause any damages within a certain time get a discount. And those who paid the average of a life time damage get excepted from paying. But for that first I would like to see a willingness to contribute to the risk they pose to society in general. And I am saying that as somebody on his way to the 60s who, save for some sport injuries paid by the federation insurance, has not been a day in a hospital, has seen a doctor maybe 5 times in his life and a dentist mostly for checkups. And I am paying medical insurance since I was 18 and went to the Merchant Marines (in lieu of the draft). And no, I don't feel bitter cause I got none, It may yet come (though looking at my great grandfather I might live like him until 99 and will have been less than a months sick during that whole time). What I surely don't want is to have others pay my way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah65 Posted September 16, 2013 #34 Share Posted September 16, 2013 *snip* Then you do see my point. I know not everyone is blessed with a solid metabolism. I realize I might be "gifted" that way. I just don't get sick...I am thankful for that. I "get" your accident scenario. There are some super sorry drivers on the road and I could end up terribly injured by no fault of my own...I have to call the "I'll sue your d!ck off" clause on that one. I don't eat stupid...I don't drive stupid...aside from my cigar habit...I pretty much am boring as a cold terd. I used to do really bad things...when i was young and "invincible"...in my twenties...I experienced things that would fill a lifetime for most people....it was on back in the day. I just think there is a better way to deal with these things other than mandatory, overly expensive private market purchases. I despise insurance....it makes me ill....I would fight the auto insurance...but as I said, driving is a privilege, not a right so....it goes with the territory. "Life" is a right...I have a paradox of thought on this subject alone....this is not the place or time to try to rationalize an irrational position on this thing....suffice to say....in my opinion...when the preservation of life...the healing of the sick and wounded...became a source of profit...the human race took two steps backwards toward the animal kingdom...the snakes and the sharks.... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted September 16, 2013 #35 Share Posted September 16, 2013 Then you do see my point. I know not everyone is blessed with a solid metabolism. I realize I might be "gifted" that way. I just don't get sick...I am thankful for that. I "get" your accident scenario. There are some super sorry drivers on the road and I could end up terribly injured by no fault of my own...I have to call the "I'll sue your d!ck off" clause on that one. I don't eat stupid...I don't drive stupid...aside from my cigar habit...I pretty much am boring as a cold terd. I used to do really bad things...when i was young and "invincible"...in my twenties...I experienced things that would fill a lifetime for most people....it was on back in the day. I just think there is a better way to deal with these things other than mandatory, overly expensive private market purchases. I despise insurance....it makes me ill....I would fight the auto insurance...but as I said, driving is a privilege, not a right so....it goes with the territory. "Life" is a right...I have a paradox of thought on this subject alone....this is not the place or time to try to rationalize an irrational position on this thing....suffice to say....in my opinion...when the preservation of life...the healing of the sick and wounded...became a source of profit...the human race took two steps backwards toward the animal kingdom...the snakes and the sharks.... I would prefer a mutual insurance, that save for some administrative cost does not have to make any money. That would be cheaper for all, but that... also called the Public Option, was shot out of the water by Congress. Besides that, I would like an option allowing a group to create their own mutual insurance leaving out the known companies. But that was disallowed by the law makers too. What we have is the best that came out from the hill, and as such is better than nothing. And before we don't get a better hill we won't get anything better. So we have to live with it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted September 16, 2013 #36 Share Posted September 16, 2013 will obamacare lower my insurance premiums?? nope, that is all i need to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremiah65 Posted September 16, 2013 #37 Share Posted September 16, 2013 ugh....I cannot disagree Q-mark...I just hate to swallow that bitter pill. Our "hill" is so rife with corruption and glad handing and back room deals....it makes me absolutely cynical of anything they do. It is never ever about 'the good of the people"...it is always about "the good of my friends and family".... I digress....i don't want to fight about that which none of us can do much about. I want to fight it...I demand a better plan. But...the herds just take what slop drops off the table and smile...all the while chanting...'thank you sir, can I have another"... There is so much ignorance and distraction...so many people just do not have a clue that things could actually be better...but they don't even bother to look and learn...it seriously breaks my heart that so many just do not know how much better things could actually be. I know you have been around the world and I know you have observed multiple systems of governance...believe it or not, I do sincerely believe that we could learn something from others...we are not so old and mature...we are the "whipper snappers" that are still wet behind the ears...I hate to say this as it will surely come back at some point and haunt me...but there are lessons to be learned from the "old" countries....I just don't know why we are so arrogant that we can't look at something and say..."hey we could use that...maybe not that...absolutely not that...but hey!...that looks useable".... Our own big-headedness is our undoing on things like this... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted September 17, 2013 #38 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Projections show it will go bankrupt. No. They do not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted September 17, 2013 #39 Share Posted September 17, 2013 90% of Americans were satisfied with the old system. No. they were not. and are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztek Posted September 17, 2013 #40 Share Posted September 17, 2013 lol, it be fun to watch wen ken rips the turle a new a## hole with facts and reality. i'm getting popcorn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted September 17, 2013 #41 Share Posted September 17, 2013 I, hardly ever go to the doctor. I was raised different. I know how to take care of myself. I know, that might not sound convincing...but I can tell you that even at (now as of friday) I am 48...I have not been to the doctor in the last 5 years...not once. good for you. But as you age, you will. It's inevitable. Maybe you can't see it now but it will happen. But beyond that, suppose you get into a car accident and are seriously injured. Do you actually know how much it costs to be in the hospital per day? You may not even be conscious. It may be your loved ones making the decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted September 17, 2013 #42 Share Posted September 17, 2013 It is a strange thing. At one point I felt that the government should stay as much out of our lives as possible. This obviously included our medical care. I also had a job with really good medical insurance. I had no experience living without insurance (when it mattered). It wasn't so much that I didn't care about people who did not have medical insurance or the ability to afford medical care. It was born of not being in that position for my entire life (In my forties now). Then my wife had a surgery go wrong. Even with medical insurance we were slowly bled to death by the costs. Then I was laid off after 11 years in the aerospace industry. I have never had a huge nest egg but it was in the 10's of thousands and slowly over 8 years I now have nothing. My wife passed away a few months ago. My credit has been destroyed and I have zero resources to work with. I do not know enough about Obamacare honestly. What I have learned in the most horrible way possible is that for those who believe that no one looses everything or goes without medical care in America has likely never had the experience I have had to endure. I am not saying the answer is Obamacare but what I do grow so tired of is the complete lack of any alternatives by those that completely oppose it. I will freely admit I do not know the solution but I can say that my wife and I went from being able to pay our bills to having to decide between which medications we could afford. The programs in place to help took too long to qualify for and even then the costs were prohibitive. So it does happen in America. People who work, save and plan as best they can end up bankrupt by medical costs. The damage goes far beyond the financial. The emotion stress of not know how one can afford there needed medical care is likely responsibly for infinitely more damage than can be imagined. I would NEVER wish this upon anyone. Even those who stand behind their medical insurance and tell me that there are programs and help out there for people who end up trying to make ends meet when they haven't a clue what is really there and is not. Edited....but didn't change anything You are exactly right and exactly why the ACA was passed. With the ACA you cannot be denied coverage. Insurance companies have to play by standard rules. Insurance premiums are less than the current slanted market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted September 17, 2013 #43 Share Posted September 17, 2013 I "get" your accident scenario. There are some super sorry drivers on the road and I could end up terribly injured by no fault of my own...I have to call the "I'll sue your d!ck off" clause on that one. Suing them is neither quick nor as easy as you would think. will obamacare lower my insurance premiums?? nope, that is all i need to know. No but it has slowed the rate of growth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MiskatonicGrad Posted September 17, 2013 #44 Share Posted September 17, 2013 good for you. But as you age, you will. It's inevitable. Maybe you can't see it now but it will happen. But beyond that, suppose you get into a car accident and are seriously injured. Do you actually know how much it costs to be in the hospital per day? You may not even be conscious. It may be your loved ones making the decisions. So what is the problem people not having healthcare or medical costs being to high? If Obamacare is going to make medical costs go down, if the all powerful government can do that why don't they? without putting more control over us? If Obamacare isn't going to reign in medical costs then how the hell are we going to pay for all of this? It has gotten bad enough since insurance companies started paying our bills then denying payment for certain treatments wait until the government takes over! I'm shelling out 10G's for my child to have braces not because I want him to look beautiful but because I don't want him to slur his words like a street bum and since my insurance sucks It is all out of pocket(that are barely that deep) I do believe that is why most people are on the fence about this is anybody that has had to deal with insurance companies usually don't have a pleasant experience and most people who've had to deal with the government leaves with the same bad taste in there mouth. So now the government wants to take over for the insurance companies or act as an mediator or something? Yeah I see nothing good happening here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted September 17, 2013 #45 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Nobody forces Americans to go to a hospital without the means to pay for it and/or insurance either. But somebody does force the hospital to treat them. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
questionmark Posted September 17, 2013 #46 Share Posted September 17, 2013 But somebody does force the hospital to treat them. Harte Then maybe instead of an affordable healthcare act what we need is a no healthcare unless you can afford it act? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent0range Posted September 17, 2013 #47 Share Posted September 17, 2013 (edited) With all of this talk about car insurance and the "privelege" of driving, you are failing to realize that healthcare and hospitals are a privelege. If you get sick or injured, you have the "privelege" of going to the hospital and receiving care whether you can pay for it or not. A homeless man who has a heart attack has the "privelege" of receiving a million dollar quadruple bypass if necessary. That 20 year old who is healthy as a horse can break a bone, and has the "privelege" of receiving all the care he needs. Would you rather people were insured, or just shut the doors of hospitals to people who are uninsured or can't pay for the care they need right on the spot? Which of those options do you think more Americans would be in favor of? Why should I have to pay higher insurance rates to cover the unpaid bills of the uninsured? Those are questions that definitely need to be answered. http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2011-05-09-uninsured-unpaid-hospital-bills_n.htm $49 Billion A YEAR that us with insurance have to make up for in our raising premiums!! http://www.amednews.com/article/20110520/government/305209997/8/ In 2008, 2.1 million uninsured people were hospitalized! These numbers are unacceptable. Edited September 17, 2013 by Agent0range Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harte Posted September 17, 2013 #48 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Then maybe instead of an affordable healthcare act what we need is a no healthcare unless you can afford it act? No, just making a point about government control of private business. The fact is, the hospital wouldn't have to treat uninsured people if the hospital didn't take money from the government so it's really their choice. Harte Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted September 17, 2013 #49 Share Posted September 17, 2013 The "Obamacare debate" can be boiled down to this: Is money more important than people, or people more important than money? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyberKen Posted September 17, 2013 Author #50 Share Posted September 17, 2013 The "Obamacare debate" can be boiled down to this: Is money more important than people, or people more important than money? 90% of Americans were happy with the old system. No system is perfect. ObamaCare Debate: do we want the iPAB rationing healthcare? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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