The disappearance of Ray Gricar

[Vincennes]

Interestingly enough there is another element here that if the county could prove that they didn't know, they had no reason to expect wrong doing, it would lessen their responsibility. That would be another reason for their delay with their hands over their ears so to speak so that they don't hear things.

[simplybill]

I should clarify my focus on the Mini. I shouldn't have mentioned it along with the bisexual scenario, as I think I misled some people as to why I thought Ray would be driving it. The first time I saw a Mini I admired it for it's utilitarian looks. I just now looked up "utilitarian" on Dictionary.com to be certain I was using the word correctly; one of the definitions fits my perception of Minis:

"having regard to utility or usefulness rather than beauty, ornamentation, etc."

In other words, I see the Mini as a great-looking, economy fuel-saver that doesn't pretentiously pretend to be a sports car (as some economy cars do). The more I read about Ray, the more I can picture him driving a Mini. He didn't seem to be overly concerned about projecting an image of status and power, other than the way he was always "impeccably dressed" in the courtroom where that image is an asset, perhaps even a "utilitarian" asset. In other words, a well-dressed, properly groomed prosecutor would sway a jury's opinion more than would a disheveled, unshaved prosecutor.

Edited October 7, 2013 by simplybill

[SuperSmith]

I should clarify my focus on the Mini. I shouldn't have mentioned it along with the bisexual scenario, as I think I misled some people as to why I thought Ray would be driving it. The first time I saw a Mini I admired it for it's utilitarian looks. I just now looked up "utilitarian" on Dictionary.com to be certain I was using the word correctly; one of the definitions fits my perception of Minis:

"having regard to utility or usefulness rather than beauty, ornamentation, etc."

In other words, I see the Mini as a great-looking, economy fuel-saver that doesn't pretentiously pretend to be a sports car (as some economy cars do). The more I read about Ray, the more I can picture him driving a Mini. He didn't seem to be overly concerned about projecting an image of status and power, other than the way he was always "impeccably dressed" in the courtroom where that image is an asset, perhaps even a "utilitarian" asset. In other words, a well-dressed, properly groomed prosecutor would sway a jury's opinion more than would a disheveled, unshaved prosecutor.

Ray liked sports cars. When the Mini's were re-released they had a pretty good following. They were fast, good on gas, and sporty. I see the Mini as nothing other than a fun driver which it has been repeatedly said Ray liked to do. He liked to go for drives to relieve stress. I think that Friday was no different.

One thing I have found a little curious is that so many of his in office co-workers were on vacation or just leaving for vacation that weekend. You would think that with so many attorneys unavailable that Ray would've wanted to stick around the ship in case anything popped up. However he did have his cellphone.

[lw-intuit]

I'd like to add that when a journalist does an interview, whether that be via telephone or in person, they hold a conversation with the interviewee. They scribble on a notepad the high points of the conversation to later use in their article. They never use the whole conversation. It's called "taking it out of context". We do not know what leading statements were before the "underwear" statement or the following statements.

Print a sentence such as that one and it stands out by itself however if you add it to a conversation it most likely loses its luster.

Since it was a discussion of the disappearance of the county DA, why would any good journalist think that picking such a statement out of an interview and highlighting it is relevant to the investigation, unless it was for one sole purpose........to mislead, to usurp, to undermine? I question the motive(s) of both the journalist and the interviewee. What was the point? It's not like SteveS is said to have told the interviewer his answer to the question, but rather both leave the answer blank, but still uses the question to attempt to either direct or mis-direct public attention.

That is not news reporting.........it's NationalE territory, where the embellishments sell more rags than the truth would, if the truth were known. I have had a tough time throughout the investigation with the 'misleading', and not understanding why it's necessary. I compare it to the JLuna case where an LE official is dead, and the cause of death is then blamed on the victim. The Luna case, in a manner, seems to have set a precedent for future work-related crimes involving LE officials.

JMO

[Vincennes]

Ray liked sports cars. When the Mini's were re-released they had a pretty good following. They were fast, good on gas, and sporty. I see the Mini as nothing other than a fun driver which it has been repeatedly said Ray liked to do. He liked to go for drives to relieve stress. I think that Friday was no different.

One thing I have found a little curious is that so many of his in office co-workers were on vacation or just leaving for vacation that weekend. You would think that with so many attorneys unavailable that Ray would've wanted to stick around the ship in case anything popped up. However he did have his cellphone.

Super, I'm really chuckling at this one. I can tell you have never worked for county or state government. It was a Friday in the early spring. I have looked around in some of these offices and wondered that the phones were even still on ! Really. ... We actually did have DA here that used to work on Fridays and even work late on Fridays, call and ask questions. He drove us fricking nuts because someone had to be there to answer his darn questions!! And, of course, sadly, he did not get reelected as he truly deserved to be .

[Regi]

Patty Fornicola Only

Oh. (I don't get it.)

I'm not exactly hung up on it as I have run it through my thoughts as being missed and as them being planted later. Either which way doesn't get me any closer to suicide or walkaway.

I think it's the notion that it was planted is what's hanging you up. (And I don't have to tell you, it's a notion that never made any sense to me.)

[Vincennes]

Since it was a discussion of the disappearance of the county DA, why would any good journalist think that picking such a statement out of an interview and highlighting it is relevant to the investigation, unless it was for one sole purpose........to mislead, to usurp, to undermine? I question the motive(s) of both the journalist and the interviewee. What was the point? It's not like SteveS is said to have told the interviewer his answer to the question, but rather both leave the answer blank, but still uses the question to attempt to either direct or mis-direct public attention.

That is not news reporting.........it's NationalE territory, where the embellishments sell more rags than the truth would, if the truth were known. I have had a tough time throughout the investigation with the 'misleading', and not understanding why it's necessary. I compare it to the JLuna case where an LE official is dead, and the cause of death is then blamed on the victim. The Luna case, in a manner, seems to have set a precedent for future work-related crimes involving LE officials.

JMO

Who asked the question ? I thought it was a profiler.

[lw-intuit]

Ray liked sports cars. When the Mini's were re-released they had a pretty good following. They were fast, good on gas, and sporty. I see the Mini as nothing other than a fun driver which it has been repeatedly said Ray liked to do. He liked to go for drives to relieve stress. I think that Friday was no different.

One thing I have found a little curious is that so many of his in office co-workers were on vacation or just leaving for vacation that weekend. You would think that with so many attorneys unavailable that Ray would've wanted to stick around the ship in case anything popped up. However he did have his cellphone.

It was my understanding that it was PF who loved the MiniCooper. I recall a mention of her having a small model of one on her desk.

RG had gone through the divorce, had money to buy PF the car she wanted. Same with the house, IIRC..........it had been her family home, and she was living there so why, after the sale of RG's house and divorce settlement, wouldn't he want to take care of paying off the mortgage if he intended on living there with her? She was almost 20 years younger than him, and it appears what was his was hers, with neither seeing marriage as a necessity. The house was close to business, and less expensive than if RG decided to go out and buy a place somewhere else. Seems to me, it was perfect and the best for both of them. RG was said to be frugal, so I doubt that he liked paying interest on either house or car. All makes sense to me without there being any hidden meaning to either house or car.

JMO

[Saunterer]

simplybill: Under pressure to do something more about Gricar's cold case, the DA (MM) asked the elite PSP-CIA team to review the local investigative effort and suggest other things local LE might do. The CIA team itself did not do any investigating.

Duncansmom: It was not TSM that donated to a political campaign, but rather individual officers/board members (which is legal but raised some eyebrows anyway).

The "Gay Ray" idea has been occasionally tossed around in every Gricar discussion forum I have read. One of the reported Mini Cooper sightings that weekend was at Shikellamy Overlook, a known gay hangout (according to locals there) just a few miles south of Lewisburg. If this is the big case secret, LE and the news media have been incredibly successful in keeping it quiet all these years ... not even a rumor having come from any insider types.

[Regi]

From what I've read about Gricar's financial situation and in consideration of his lifestyle, what I notice is that there appears to be an overall lack of obligation.

Now, I realize that he was twice divorced and those events impact finances/lifestyle, but regardless, I think it's worth noting because I also recall reading that early on- and despite his education, he was contented to stay home.

[simplybill]

Who asked the question ? I thought it was a profiler.

D - This was in the Sara Ganim article from April 2012:

"A state police profiler began to ask questions, and some of them struck Sloane as pretty weird.

“Have you ever seen Ray’s underclothes?”

“Have you ever thought he was gay?”

Gricar, with his mysterious demeanor, had always been the subject of conjecture for the nosy, Sloane said. He chalked the questions up to that."

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2012/04/ray_gricar_mystery.html

[lw-intuit]

D - This was in the Sara Ganim article from April 2012:

"A state police profiler began to ask questions, and some of them struck Sloane as pretty weird.

“Have you ever seen Ray’s underclothes?”

“Have you ever thought he was gay?”

Gricar, with his mysterious demeanor, had always been the subject of conjecture for the nosy, Sloane said. He chalked the questions up to that."

http://www.pennlive....ar_mystery.html

My point exactly------------do you see any other questions asked by the profiler offered, such as those that might have led to the profiler determining suicide likely? In fact, according to DetZ, no report from the profiler was ever forthcoming, and no name for the profiler was ever offered. The 'friend' instead dangles a tidbit he is well aware that the journalist will latch on to. I remain firm on questioning the depth of the so-called friendship as well as the NationalE level of reporting.

JMO

[SuperSmith]

Oh. (I don't get it.)

I think it's the notion that it was planted is what's hanging you up. (And I don't have to tell you, it's a notion that never made any sense to me.)

I don't "get" most vanity license plates but to each his own I suppose. Remember, the Mini was reportedly a gift. I guess the plate was an attempt to add cuteness....fail IMO.

Nah, the fact it was in an obvious location is what led me to believe in the notion. At some point in this case you have to put trust or faith in what others report or tell you to get to any conclusion. For me the fact that I have been told by someone who was there, during the searches, that it is highly unlikely that it was missed leads me to that notion as well. But hey anything is possible.

[Vincennes]

simplybill: Under pressure to do something more about Gricar's cold case, the DA (MM) asked the elite PSP-CIA team to review the local investigative effort and suggest other things local LE might do. The CIA team itself did not do any investigating.

Duncansmom: It was not TSM that donated to a political campaign, but rather individual officers/board members (which is legal but raised some eyebrows anyway).

The "Gay Ray" idea has been occasionally tossed around in every Gricar discussion forum I have read. One of the reported Mini Cooper sightings that weekend was at Shikellamy Overlook, a known gay hangout (according to locals there) just a few miles south of Lewisburg. If this is the big case secret, LE and the news media have been incredibly successful in keeping it quiet all these years ... not even a rumor having come from any insider types.

Thanks, S, for the Second Mile explanation. That one really did spin me around when I read it. However, it is almost as bad that their board members had an established example of campaign donations... My eyebrows are raised.

What the heck is the PSP-CIA team though? You guys could go work for the government with your acronyms! By the time I figure out what you are discussing or who, every one is on to the next topic !! LOL

You aren't going to hear anything about "it" from the "insiders." That's been my point.

[SuperSmith]

Thanks, S, for the Second Mile explanation. That one really did spin me around when I read it. However, it is almost as bad that their board members had an established example of campaign donations... My eyebrows are raised.

What the heck is the PSP-CIA team though? You guys could go work for the government with your acronyms! By the time I figure out what you are discussing or who, every one is on to the next topic !! LOL

You aren't going to hear anything about "it" from the "insiders." That's been my point.

PSP- Pennsylvania State Police

CIA- Central Intelligence Agency

LOL, we did have a thread dedicated just for our "acronyms" on our old board.

[Saunterer]

PSP-CIA: Pennsylvania State Police, Criminal Investigative Assessment / Missing Persons Unit. Until 2004 its activities were played up in the PSP's annual reports ... although I have not read the annual reports for several years now.

[simplybill]

Since it was a discussion of the disappearance of the county DA, why would any good journalist think that picking such a statement out of an interview and highlighting it is relevant to the investigation, unless it was for one sole purpose........to mislead, to usurp, to undermine? I question the motive(s) of both the journalist and the interviewee. What was the point? It's not like SteveS is said to have told the interviewer his answer to the question, but rather both leave the answer blank, but still uses the question to attempt to either direct or mis-direct public attention.

That is not news reporting.........it's NationalE territory, where the embellishments sell more rags than the truth would, if the truth were known. I have had a tough time throughout the investigation with the 'misleading', and not understanding why it's necessary. I compare it to the JLuna case where an LE official is dead, and the cause of death is then blamed on the victim. The Luna case, in a manner, seems to have set a precedent for future work-related crimes involving LE officials.

JMO

I think the sensationalism is creeping into these articles more and more because, after 8 years, the story no longer has legs. It would be difficult for a journalist to write an interesting story, considering the basic story hasn't changed for about 7 years now. There just isn't anything more to report on. In order to keep the public's interest, the writer has to either present new evidence or a new angle; at this point the only angles that haven't been worn out by past journalists are the sensational ones.

Edited October 7, 2013 by simplybill

[SuperSmith]

PSP-CIA: Pennsylvania State Police, Criminal Investigative Assessment / Missing Persons Unit. Until 2004 its activities were played up in the PSP's annual reports ... although I have not read the annual reports for several years now.

Oops, thank you Saunterer for the correction.

[Vincennes]

I think the sensationalism is creeping into these articles more and more because, after 8 years, the story no longer has legs. It would be difficult for a journalist to write an interesting story, considering the basic story hasn't changed for about 7 years now. There just isn't anything more to report on. In order to keep the public's interest, the writer has to either present new evidence or a new angle; at this point the only angles that haven't been worn out by past journalists are the sensational ones.

Excellent point ! I can just hear Nancy Grace trying to make a show out of "Bombshell Tonight! UPDATE ~~ Nothing"

[SuperSmith]

Regi, I am glad we are getting along better

What is your opinion on:

The Code Book left on Mark Smith's desk? It was said to have opened right up to the section that guides how to replace a missing, deceased, or otherwise absent DA.

What do you make of all the sightings of RG?

Do you think there was a mystery woman?

Why do you think the scene in Lewisburg resembles the one of RG's brothers suicide?

What do you make of the Fenton sighting?

What do you make of Lara Gricar's utter silence over the years?

[Saunterer]

LOL, SS! Not sure if this was the last list I put up, but it might help some here:

ADA - Assistant District Attorney

AG - Amos Goodall or Attorney General

AGO - Attorney General’s Office (also OAG)

AVM - Alejandro Vargas Mendez (or Mendez Vargas)

BB - Bob Buehner

BG - Barbara (Gray) Gricar

BJL - Billy Joe Leathers

BK - Bill Keisling or 1998 shower witness

BM - R. Bruce Manchester

BOT - Board of Trustees

BP - Barbara Petito

BPD - Bellefonte Police Department

BS - Everything which LE and others have thrust upon the public ... without proof.

CB - Carla Baron

CDT - Centre Daily Times

CF - Carolyn (Fenton) Larrabee

CG - Chris Gricar

CPV - Central Pennsylvania Vagueness

CS - Cheryl Spotts

DA - District Attorney

DC - Daily Collegian

DD - Duane Dixon

DN - Dennis Nau, Sheriff of Centre County

DZ - Darryl Zaccagni

EG - Emma (Lange) Gricar

EN - Erin Nissley

EW - Ed Walker

GJ - Grand Jury

GJP - Grand Jury presentment

GS - Gary Schultz or Gary Sinderson or Graham Spanier

GVS - Greta Van Susteren

JP - Joe Paterno

JS - Jerry Sandusky

KA - Karen Arnold (also JKA)

LE - Law Enforcement

LG - Lara Gricar

LM - Lisa Mendez or Lance Marshall

LMW - Lewisburg Mystery Woman

MJ - Mike Joseph

MM - Michael Madeira or Mike McQueary

MR - Matt Rickard

MS - Mark Smith

NG - Nancy Grace

OT - Off topic (also O/T)

PB - Pete Bosak

PDAA - Pennsylvania District Attorneys Association

PF - Patty Fornicola (also PEF)

PN - The Patriot-News (Harrisburg)

PPG - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

PSP-CIA - Pennsylvania State Police, Criminal Investigative Assessment/Missing Persons Unit

RG - Ray Gricar (also RFG)

RM - see BM

RS - Ron Schreffler

SG - Sara Ganim

SPM - Stacy Parks Miller

SS - Steve Sloane

SW - Shawn Weaver

TC - Tom Corbett or Tim Curley

TdB - Tony deBoef

TG - Tony Gricar

TH - Thomas Harmon

TL - Taji “Verbal” Lee

TMcK - Merritt “Ted” McKnight (or TM)

TMW - Tyrone Mystery Woman

TT - Tom Thal

YITMAMPW - Years In the Making and Meticulously Planned Walkaway Theory

[SuperSmith]

The unfortunate thing about this site is we can't do our separate threads for the same topic

[Saunterer]

Making the Shikellamy Overlook a more family friendly state park

SUNBURY – The Shikellamy State Park Overlook has gotten bad publicity over the years due to reports of inappropriate behavior taking place in the park, including homosexual activity.

http://www.wqkx.com/1070_WKOK/NEWS_ARCHIVES/020710.htm

[Regi]

Regi, I am glad we are getting along better

Me, too.

What is your opinion on:

The Code Book left on Mark Smith's desk? It was said to have opened right up to the section that guides how to replace a missing, deceased, or otherwise absent DA.

Assuming it's true, I wouldn't attach any significance to it.

What do you make of all the sightings of RG?

I'd find them unreliable.

Do you think there was a mystery woman?

I wouldn't rule it out. I think if there was, then she's obviously equally as discreet as Gricar

Why do you think the scene in Lewisburg resembles the one of RG's brothers suicide?

I find that to be a chilling, haunting aspect.

What do you make of the Fenton sighting?

Who's Fenton?

What do you make of Lara Gricar's utter silence over the years?

I'd see no reason to hold it against her.

.

Edited October 7, 2013 by regi

[simplybill]

The unfortunate thing about this site is we can't do our separate threads for the same topic

I think that's a great idea Super. I don't think the moderators would object, though someone should explain to them the need for separate threads, just so they don't "combine" the topics as they sometimes do.