Comparing Atlantis

[docyabut2]

Around 600 BC an ancient Greek poet called Peisander wrote of the twelve labours of the Greek mythical hero Hercules. The tenth task was to steal the cattle of the giant Geryon who lived on an island called Erytheia in the mythical Hesperides in the far west of the sea. The more literal Greeks interpreted Hesperides as being the land of the Tartessus in the area of present day Huelva and Cádiz, Spain

The name "Atlanteans" was also given by the Greeks to the Phoenician colonies along the Barbary Coast of North Africa. All though the Egyptian tale was of most likely about Thera, Plato may have placed the Pillars of Hercules, Atlantis and the tale also to the west.

He may have also made up the ten tribes of Atlantis to the ten early tribes of Athens and the kings of a war.

http://www.stoa.org/athens/essays/tribes.html

Edited October 12, 2013 by docyabut2

[cormac mac airt]

Around 600 BC an ancient Greek poet called Peisander wrote of the twelve labours of the Greek mythical hero Hercules. The tenth task was to steal the cattle of the giant Geryon who lived on an island called Erytheia in the mythical Hesperides in the far west of the sea. The more literal Greeks interpreted Hesperides as being the land of the Tartessus in the area of present day Huelva and Cádiz, Spain

The name "Atlanteans" was also given by the Greeks to the Phoenician colonies along the Barbary Coast of North Africa. All though the Egyptian tale was of most likely about Thera, Plato may have placed the Pillars of Hercules, Atlantis and the tale also to the west.

He may have also made up the ten tribes of Atlantis to the ten early tribes of Athens and the kings of a war.

http://www.stoa.org/...ays/tribes.html

Would that be the Egyptian tale that left absolutely no evidence if its existance?

cormac

[docyabut2]

Would that be the Egyptian tale that left absolutely no evidence if its existance?

cormac

Right Cormac you and Kmt convinced me that there was nothing written down by the Egyptians or Solon of this tale , but was only Plato`s allegory of a moral story.Considering they said a event was true of Solon, Solon may have heard from the Egyptains of the island destuction of Thera. And Critius, Plato made this tale all up as they went according to greek myths. Plato may have placed the Pillars of Hercules, Atlantis to the west, of another island city that went missing,Tartessos

[Mario Dantas]

Cormac,

Why do you keep saying that? Why do you always make things uneasy?

Atlantis could have been just an invented story, although i don't really believe that. Atlantis might be nothing at all. But one can't exactly prove it didn't exist either, right? Nevertheless, one should always remember that not all things in the past were as material as statues, idols, books, etc to name a few. How would people record anything in those days? by oral tradition? I ask, how do you expect to find anything material when information was transmitted from one generation to the next?

IMO, oral traditions can be very effective, but also very fragile (especially in war times). One should ask, how would a civilization that had lost everything transmit anything historical?

Are you not aware that the most beautifully well written literature came from oral tradition? Homer's poems are a good example of a knowledge we now have long lost. Tolkien also really drank from that water and gave us, "modern humans", a sense of what might have been the extremely intelligent people that once lived. Plato wrote dialogs, lol...

But i divagate... nevertheless, i have the right to follow closely your posts. You are terribly wicked, tricky and slippery, but that all won't avoid the fact that you are wrong.

You are comfortably sitting on your actual knowledge of modern science, but you seem to ignore that Galileo's heliocentric theory was strongly refuted once, and that was that the sun was not still and it wasn't the earth that revolved around it, but the contrary...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

[spacecowboy342]

Atlantis could have been an invented story or could have some basis in fact but one thing it was not was Greenland.

[Leonardo]

You are comfortably sitting on your actual knowledge of modern science, but you seem to ignore that Galileo's heliocentric theory was strongly refuted once, and that was that the sun was not still and it wasn't the earth that revolved around it, but the contrary...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Mario,

With all due respect, that orthodoxy changes does not in any way suggest that any idea presented to change orthdoxy is 'correct'. Furthermore, the heliocentric view of the solar system promoted by Galileo was supported by evidence and observations from astronomy and other factual disciplines. This is an entirely different quality to the hypothesis you present - which is not supported by evidence or observation from any factual source.

[cormac mac airt]

Cormac,

Why do you keep saying that? Why do you always make things uneasy?

Atlantis could have been just an invented story, although i don't really believe that. Atlantis might be nothing at all. But one can't exactly prove it didn't exist either, right? Nevertheless, one should always remember that not all things in the past were as material as statues, idols, books, etc to name a few. How would people record anything in those days? by oral tradition? I ask, how do you expect to find anything material when information was transmitted from one generation to the next?

IMO, oral traditions can be very effective, but also very fragile (especially in war times). One should ask, how would a civilization that had lost everything transmit anything historical?

Are you not aware that the most beautifully well written literature came from oral tradition? Homer's poems are a good example of a knowledge we now have long lost. Tolkien also really drank from that water and gave us, "modern humans", a sense of what might have been the extremely intelligent people that once lived. Plato wrote dialogs, lol...

But i divagate... nevertheless, i have the right to follow closely your posts. You are terribly wicked, tricky and slippery, but that all won't avoid the fact that you are wrong.

You are comfortably sitting on your actual knowledge of modern science, but you seem to ignore that Galileo's heliocentric theory was strongly refuted once, and that was that the sun was not still and it wasn't the earth that revolved around it, but the contrary...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

I believe in evidence based on the facts, not making something up that is diametrically opposed to them as your idea of Greenland being Atlantis is.

In the entire time you've been here you've not presented one bit of factual, verifiable scientific evidence that Greenland has moved any significant distance from its present location, within human history. And I don't expect that to change since none of the sciences support your contention.

Perhaps you need to be reminded that you're not Galileo. You dishonor him by even suggesting you're in the same category IMO.

cormac

[Mario Dantas]

My theory is very simple and tries to explain many actual geological facts. It could be wrong? of course...

Things are impossible until proven possible. Greenland was in front of the straits of Gibraltar 10.000 years ago, as far as this continental reconstruction show:

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6o_H1_73syM/TF0zO3xHLRI/AAAAAAAAEIw/3pNlh1oQLzo/s512/Canary%2520n.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-L9f5NzhftNA/TF2wdGE-QwI/AAAAAAAAEJk/jISh2nEvwbE/s671/Canary%2520islands22.jpg

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-6o_H1_73syM/TF0zO3xHLRI/AAAAAAAAEIw/3pNlh1oQLzo/s512/Canary%2520n.jpg

Regards,

Mario Dantas

[cormac mac airt]

Greenland was in front of the straits of Gibraltar 10.000 years ago, as far as this continental reconstruction show:

Greenland was not in front of the Straits of Gibraltar 10,000 years ago, based on the evidence from various scientific disciplines. Because you can paste a picture of it there does not make it a fact.

cormac

[docyabut2]

OK, and this is what Taun created for me, based on what I told him about the Strait of Dover around 8200 BP :

[media=]

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http://www.unexplain...40#entry4898656

And any sailor daring to pass those pillars would eventually reach the remnants of Doggerland, a now swampy area, muddy shoals, smelling to high heaven, and so on. An area the size of California destroyed by a giant tsunami, a tsunami that lasted for maybe 2 to 3 days.

I never wanted the Doggerland thread to be spoiled by bull concerning Atlantis, but I think that the early Strait of Dover comes very close to these "Pillars of Hercules".

I guess if anyone can find where these pillars really were would be the key.

Plato

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya [Africa] within the columns of Herakles as far as Aigyptos (Egypt), and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia [in Italia]. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits.

[Everdred]

Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya [Africa] within the columns of Herakles as far as Aigyptos (Egypt), and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia [in Italia]. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits.

Sorta takes the mystery out of it.

[docyabut2]

Sorta takes the mystery out of it.

But that could be any straits in the Mediterranean.

[granpa]

well lets see.

according to plato we have a great continent that "may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent"

within this continent we have a sea and within this sea we have atlantis.

Between this sea and greece lie the Pillars of Heracles

this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent

Edited October 14, 2013 by granpa

[Everdred]

But that could be any straits in the Mediterranean.

Nope. "Within the columns of Herakles" means on the same side as Greece. So the geographical indication is that it must be west of Tyrrhenia (= Etruria, Tuscany) and Egypt. The only ones on your map that fit are the three at or beyond the Strait of Gibraltar.

[cormac mac airt]

Nope. "Within the columns of Herakles" means on the same side as Greece. So the geographical indication is that it must be west of Tyrrhenia (= Etruria, Tuscany) and Egypt. The only ones on your map that fit are the three at or beyond the Strait of Gibraltar.

And the only one of these that separate 'outside' the Mediterranean from 'within' the Mediterranean and whose obstruction (upon Atlantis' destruction) would have prevented navigation from one side to the other would have been the middle one.

cormac

[docyabut2]

The first distinction between continents was made by ancient Greek mariners who gave the names Europe and Asia to the lands on either side of the waterways of the Aegean Sea, the Dardanelles strait, the Sea of Marmara, the Bosporus strait and the Black Sea.^[35] The names were first applied just to lands near the coast and only later extended to include the hinterlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent

However to the Egyptians land near a coast line could have been a continent like Crete.

[Leonardo]

The first distinction between continents was made by ancient Greek mariners who gave the names Europe and Asia to the lands on either side of the waterways of the Aegean Sea, the Dardanelles strait, the Sea of Marmara, the Bosporus strait and the Black Sea.^[35] The names were first applied just to lands near the coast and only later extended to include the hinterlands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continent

However to the Egyptians land near a coast line could have been a continent like Crete.

Plato's narrative remarks that Atlantis sits outside the Pillars of Heracles, and has conquered lands inside but not yet Egypt or Athens. This means ancient Athens and Egypt sit inside the Pillars of Heracles.

Given also the reference to the lands that have been conquered, the only possible location for the Pillars Plato relates is the modern Gibraltar Strait. No other suggested strait or narrow passage fits all the requirements for the description Plato provides. Any location inside the Mediterranean precludes the "inside/outside" theme, and any location in/on the Black Sea or Red Sea precludes the suggestion Atlantis conquered those areas closest to it (Libya up to Egypt and Europe up to Tyrrhenia) prior to making war on Egypt/Athens.

This means Atlantis must sit in the Atlantic, as orthodox scholarship of the subject suggests and that Plato is not referring to a place in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East or the Baltic/Caucasian region.

[docyabut2]

Plato's narrative remarks that Atlantis sits outside the Pillars of Heracles, and has conquered lands inside but not yet Egypt or Athens. This means ancient Athens and Egypt sit inside the Pillars of Heracles.

Given also the reference to the lands that have been conquered, the only possible location for the Pillars Plato relates is the modern Gibraltar Strait. No other suggested strait or narrow passage fits all the requirements for the description Plato provides. Any location inside the Mediterranean precludes the "inside/outside" theme, and any location in/on the Black Sea or Red Sea precludes the suggestion Atlantis conquered those areas closest to it (Libya up to Egypt and Europe up to Tyrrhenia) prior to making war on Egypt/Athens.

This means Atlantis must sit in the Atlantic, as orthodox scholarship of the subject suggests and that Plato is not referring to a place in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East or the Baltic/Caucasian region.

The first translation of the Timaeos from Greek to Latin is done by Chalcidius in the third century.

Next the first translation to latin of al the original dialogues and documents of Plato was made by Marsilio Ficino, the "Divini Platonis Operates Omnia", between 1482 and 1484. The original texts which Ficino used, are lost. So for the real meaning of PLato work we seem to depend on the intepretation of Ficino. Comparing the work of Chalcidius gives several indications that either or both must have had liberal ideas about translations.

The word "continent" for instance used to indicate the size of Atlantis was unknown in the old Greek language. Instead from Chalcidius it seems that Plato had used the indication for an island or island group. The same for "ocean", that was a "sea strait" according to the first translation. Another example is that the word "bigger" (meizôn) in the phrase that "Atlantis was bigger than Libye and Asia combined", was actually a word with could be translated to "owner of", "greater", "more beautiful than", "superior to", etc.

(Information of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano)

[Leonardo]

The first translation of the Timaeos from Greek to Latin is done by Chalcidius in the third century.

Next the first translation to latin of al the original dialogues and documents of Plato was made by Marsilio Ficino, the "Divini Platonis Operates Omnia", between 1482 and 1484. The original texts which Ficino used, are lost. So for the real meaning of PLato work we seem to depend on the intepretation of Ficino. Comparing the work of Chalcidius gives several indications that either or both must have had liberal ideas about translations.

The word "continent" for instance used to indicate the size of Atlantis was unknown in the old Greek language. Instead from Chalcidius it seems that Plato had used the indication for an island or island group. The same for "ocean", that was a "sea strait" according to the first translation. Another example is that the word "bigger" (meizôn) in the phrase that "Atlantis was bigger than Libye and Asia combined", was actually a word with could be translated to "owner of", "greater", "more beautiful than", "superior to", etc.

(Information of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano)

That's all well and good, but I made no reference to how large Atlantis was supposed to be, but only commented on it's location as related by Plato - and the location of the Pillars of Heracles.

I'm quite amenable to the argument Atlantis may not have been so large as Plato describes, but that argument doesn't really factor into the location of it outside excluding certain areas if we consider Plato was accurate.

[Everdred]

The first translation of the Timaeos from Greek to Latin is done by Chalcidius in the third century.

Next the first translation to latin of al the original dialogues and documents of Plato was made by Marsilio Ficino, the "Divini Platonis Operates Omnia", between 1482 and 1484. The original texts which Ficino used, are lost. So for the real meaning of PLato work we seem to depend on the intepretation of Ficino. Comparing the work of Chalcidius gives several indications that either or both must have had liberal ideas about translations.

The word "continent" for instance used to indicate the size of Atlantis was unknown in the old Greek language. Instead from Chalcidius it seems that Plato had used the indication for an island or island group. The same for "ocean", that was a "sea strait" according to the first translation. Another example is that the word "bigger" (meizôn) in the phrase that "Atlantis was bigger than Libye and Asia combined", was actually a word with could be translated to "owner of", "greater", "more beautiful than", "superior to", etc.

(Information of Georgeos Diaz-Montexano)

We have the Greek, so we don't have to rely on any Latin translations.

In "Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent," continent is rendered as "epeiros" meaning "land, mainland, continent," not "island."

It should also be noted that "meizon" is merely the comparative form of "megas," the most straightforward word for "large" in the Greek language. The chap you quoted is deliberately trying to mislead you into thinking it's much more vague than it actually is.

Edited October 14, 2013 by Everdred

[Harte]

But that could be any straits in the Mediterranean.

Yeah.

Obviously, Libya is "within" every, single strait in the Med.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

We have the Greek, so we don't have to rely on any Latin translations.

We have /a/ Greek edition, but -- as with every single Classical text -- we certainly have nothing that could be considered authentic or have an indisputable, strong relationship to the Classical original. Everything we have has either gone through a Latin, Byzantine or Arabic edition (or all three), along with millennia of scholarly "corrections" and "emendations".

I'm not necessarily belittling any edition or textual interpretation, but I am saying be aware of the provenance of your text, and how thousands of years of other people's agendas have altered it. The Latin translations can be a valuable corrective text.

--Jaylemurph

[docyabut2]

We have /a/ Greek edition, but -- as with every single Classical text -- we certainly have nothing that could be considered authentic or have an indisputable, strong relationship to the Classical original. Everything we have has either gone through a Latin, Byzantine or Arabic edition (or all three), along with millennia of scholarly "corrections" and "emendations".

I'm not necessarily belittling any edition or textual interpretation, but I am saying be aware of the provenance of your text, and how thousands of years of other people's agendas have altered it. The Latin translations can be a valuable corrective text.

--Jaylemurph

I agree so much of this so called Egyptain tale could have be altered or mistranslated through the many translations, even through Solon that was said to have translated the meanings from the Egyptian language and told in poetic greek form.Its so obvious that Atlantis was most likey about Thera, however the tale somehow all got shifted to the west.

[Leonardo]

I agree so much of this so called Egyptain tale could have be altered or mistranslated through the many translations, even through Solon that was said to have translated the meanings from the Egyptian language and told in poetic greek form.Its so obvious that Atlantis was most likey about Thera, however the tale somehow all got shifted to the west.

"Could have" is not equal to "was". While we should certainly be cautious in assuming our "correctness" in the translations, we should not necessarily assume those translations are not correct, or garbled.

Unless other reliable sources suggest a mistake in the translation from the Greek to the Latin and thence to our modern languages, we should not assume there is a mistake or a mistranslation of such serious consequence to render an entire chapter or theme of the narrative unreliable.

[LucidElement]

I believe history has been altered numerous times. I have my bachelors in History soon to be masters degree. As interesting as it is, I truly believe it has been altered in different ways from what really happened. That could be why atlantis was misinterpreted, the bible altered, anything really. Its tough to know what really happened dduring ancient periods, because as it comes towards the present any high ranking ruler, president, king, could alter what he or she pleases and keeps passing it down the line. I think that could be a reason why atlantis is such a mystery. Same with other ancient phenomenons.