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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


Abramelin

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Wouldn't be useful to follow the transcription by Koebler?

The OLB words could be integrated into his Old Frisian dictionary.

This would facilitate references very much.

In my opinion, to make it most easily accessible for a larger audience, it would be best to use letters that are easy to read.

People who would use a dictionary as that by Köbler, will understand that wés, wês, wees and waise are the same.

Besides, OLB has a wide spelling variety, as have the modern NW-European languages.

BOK = book = boek = buch = bog

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Language is not mathematics.

Sometimes the 'double-U' was seen as one letter, sometimes as two.

Sometimes it is pronounced as in "wit", sometimes as in "ooze".

I agree.

Just above the letter chart in Knuls copies here: http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html

the word muge is there and it has the letter that is W used in the 'oo' way. The other letters that look like a capital W (like 2 V's) are used as the W as in wet is a W sound imo. It's not 2 V's imo - it's simply a variation on the letter W sound. oo and w - seems they have just used a harder shaped letter for a harden shaped sound - but I don't think at all it's 2 V's.

As you say gestur, this letter W (double U) was that - a uu/oo sound or a W sound - you can see it used accordingly imo.

See muge, 3rd line up from bottom - this is how I agree with you.

olb46.jpg-for-web-xlarge.jpg

Edited by The Puzzler
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I think also that Wralda's name is actually true elder or true ancient, based in:

wēr afries., Adj.: nhd. wahr, wahrheitsgetreu, wirklich, gültig; ne. true, truthful; (e with line over it)

I don't think it would be that strange to drop the ē sound in words that contained it as the sound in weird - since wr says the same sound with or without it. To get the wer/whir sound, as man - you really need the e to stay in the word. weer/weird (no need for ē to be written there ) wer/were/word sound (keep the e letter in)

WR.ALDA

Edited by The Puzzler
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Sorry, editing mucked me around.

Edited by The Puzzler
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... the word muge is there and it has the letter that is W used in the 'oo' way.

I see that split-U in "muge" as a "ü", a sharp u, as in Dutch "vuur" (fire) or German "Düsseldorf".

In OLB, VV = W.

It is sometimes clearly visible, most of the times not.

Ofcourse, it's more easy not to lift the pen from the paper when writing two V's.

WR.ALDA has evolved in the new Frisian word for "world", "wrald", but also in the German "ur-alte" (over-old-one).

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The name "Leeuwarden" (or older spelling variants) first came into use for Nijehove, the most important one of the three villages that later merged into one, in the early 9th century (Villa Lintarwrde c. 825).[7]

There is much uncertainty about the origin of the city's name. Historian and archivist Wopke Eekhoff summed up a total of over 200 different spelling variants, of which Leeuwarden (Dutch), Liwwadden (Stadsfries) and Ljouwert (West Frisian) are still in use.[8]

The second syllable is easily explained. Warden, Frisian/Dutch for an artificial dwelling hill, is a designation of a few terps, reflecting the historical situation.[8] The first part of the name, leeuw, means lion in modern standard Dutch. This interpretation corresponds with the coat of arms adopted by the city, which features a heraldic lion. However, modern standard Dutch was not used in this region in the Middle Ages, when the city was called Lintarwrde. Some scholars argue that the name of the city is derived from leeu-, a corruption of luw- (Dutch for sheltered from the wind, cf. the maritime term Leeward) or from lee- (a Dutch denotion of a water circulation). The last one suits the watery province of Fryslân.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Leeuwarden

Makes sense to me.

However, modern standard Dutch was not used in this region in the Middle Ages, when the city was called Lintarwrde.

This is why it doesn't make sense. The end part of the word is not warden originally. The Frisians would have had therp or such a word imo. The word Leeuwarden may be a Dutch interpretation and spelling of a word that sounds the same but actually possesses a different etymology to the Frisian name of origin.

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I see that split-U in "muge" as a "ü", a sharp u, as in Dutch "vuur" (fire) or German "Düsseldorf".

In OLB, VV = W.

It is sometimes clearly visible, most of the times not.

Ofcourse, it's more easy not to lift the pen from the paper when writing two V's.

WR.ALDA has evolved in the new Frisian word for "world", "wrald", but also in the German "ur-alte" (over-old-one).

The split U is W - just when they write it they do two V's - I don't think it has a V sound. The U with a dot in centre is an oo sound. It goes U (u as in up) /U with dot (like oo)/split U (a W) - the W shape is not in the OLB alphabet page but equates to the split U.

The U in muge is not a split U but a U with dot/oo. My last post was confusing, sorry. This letter I agree with what you said like we'd say Doosseldorf - but I'd call it a long sound, not a sharp sound.

Whatever WR.ALDA has become - it imo means true elder/ancient as per the Frisian dictionary as I showed.

Learn and announce to the people Wr-alda is the ancient of ancients,

over-old one - not really - he is true old one. Did you see wer with a line over the e as true...? German is a late language, doesn't matter what it's become - I'm looking for original meanings. It might mean world now and even have become world in the time of the OLB but it doesn't exactly mean world in Frisian etymology.

Edited by The Puzzler
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, so that

Wouldn't be useful to follow the transcription by Koebler ? The OLB words could be integrated into his Old Frisian dictionary. This would facilitate references very much. Please, think it over.

I agree - if Ottema has transcripted the word with a circumflex and the word appears in the Koebler dictionary exactly the same, one imo, should keep to this throughout, changing it might take away from the value of understanding it, no matter what we think it should be. French speakers may have retained it while Frisian speakers lost it due to Dutch language influence. (Although oddly enough I do it see it on the word Fryslan a lot) English may have dropped it in favour of the vowel sounds and letters itself - oo, ai, ea from influence of (maybe) Anglo-Saxon speakers.

Edited by The Puzzler
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In other Germanic languages, including German, its name is similar to that of English V.[4] In many languages, its name literally means "double v": Spanish doble ve (though it can be spelled uve doble),[5][note 1] French double vé, Icelandic tvöfalt vaff, Czech dvojité vé, Finnish kaksois-vee, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W

This doesn't mean it has to be a double V sound, just that it looks like a double V - if we go with the OLB book, it's not in the alphabet, but appears in the text - it's a letter that is not V, because V is already there and they could have easily saved time and ink by just putting a V. The VV in the OLB is variation on the split U imo - and because a letter that looked like a double V - so was subsequently named this - the sound of W is imo an original sound for this letter - it became a V sound in German because of their accent and difference in speech. English has no sign of a V sound for W and has broken off Frisian quite early, so has no trace of this incoming sound to the language and the word. V imo would not be an original sound for this letter, because it does not exist in English.

The Germanic /w/ phoneme was therefore written as 'vv' or 'uu' ('u' and 'v' becoming distinct only by the Early Modern period) by the 7th or 8th century by the earliest writers of Old English and Old High German

That explains that w the sound, was written as VV and also the split U (double U - uu).

It is from this 'uu' digraph that the modern name "double U" derives. The digraph was commonly used in the spelling of Old High German, but only sporadically in Old English, where the /w/ sound was usually represented by the runic wynn (‹Ƿ›). In early Middle English, following the 11th-century Norman Conquest, 'uu' gained popularity and by 1300 it had taken wynn's place in common use.

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One more before bed.

In Latin, a stemless variant shape of the upsilon was borrowed in early times as V—either directly from the Western Greek alphabet or from the Etruscan alphabet as an intermediary—to represent the same /u/ sound, as well as the consonantal /w/. Thus, 'num' — originally spelled 'NVM' — was pronounced /num/ and 'via' was pronounced [ˈwia]. From the 1st century AD on, depending on Vulgar Latin dialect, consonantal /w/ developed into /β/ (kept in Spanish), then later to /v/.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V

Even in the OLB the V is a U. svn would be sun.

No v is pronounced. The v is a u sound. The OLB is basically saying they had this first - so Latin (as possible Near Krekalanders) took on parts of the Fryan language.

In the example of via as wia - shows what I said: V sound is a later one - also showing that the letters of the OLB alphabet - which have a V is not the same one being used as a V in the text. The V shown in the alphabet is a V (making the alphabet seem mid 16th century) - V shape is a U - VV is double U sounding like w wit - which became known as a W and into Germanic became co-incidently a V sound because of their speech.

Edited by The Puzzler
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In my opinion, to make it most easily accessible for a larger audience, it would be best to use letters that are easy to read.

People who would use a dictionary as that by Köbler, will understand that wés, wês, wees and waise are the same.

Besides, OLB has a wide spelling variety, as have the modern NW-European languages.

BOK = book = boek = buch = bog

The spelling of the OLB has a wide spelling variety indeed, but is also inconsistent. Because of the claim, that the OLB is written in Old Frisian it would be best to compare it with Old Frisian. Therefore I made use of the DRW transcription (DRW = Deutsche Rechtswissenschaft, most Old Frisian texts have juridical contents).

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The Oera Linda Book is a 19th-century manuscript written in Old Frisian. It purports to cover historical, mythological, and religious themes of remote antiquity, compiled between 2194 BC and AD 803.

The manuscript's author is not known with certainty, and it is hence unknown whether the intention was to produce a hoax, a parody or simply an exercise in poetic fantasy.

The manuscript first came to public awareness in the 1860s. In 1872, Jan Gerhardus Ottema published a Dutch translation and defended it as "genuine". Over the next few years there was a heated public controversy, but by 1879 it was universally recognized that the text was a recent composition. Nevertheless, a public controversy was revived in the context of 1930s Nazi occultism, and the book is still occasionally brought up in esotericism and "Atlantis" literature.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oera_Linda

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The Oera Linda Book is a 19th-century manuscript written in Old Frisian. It purports to cover historical, mythological, and religious themes of remote antiquity, compiled between 2194 BC and AD 803.

The manuscript's author is not known with certainty, and it is hence unknown whether the intention was to produce a hoax, a parody or simply an exercise in poetic fantasy.

The manuscript first came to public awareness in the 1860s. In 1872, Jan Gerhardus Ottema published a Dutch translation and defended it as "genuine". Over the next few years there was a heated public controversy, but by 1879 it was universally recognized that the text was a recent composition. Nevertheless, a public controversy was revived in the context of 1930s Nazi occultism, and the book is still occasionally brought up in esotericism and "Atlantis" literature.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Oera_Linda

Thanks for adding to the thread doc, hope you get interested, we've been here for years now investigating this, (this is part 2 of the original thread, which got too long) it's like a bigger puzzle than Atlantis, if that could be so. Universally recognized doesn't mean that is fact, it's a majority opinion and no real facts can actually conclude this is a recent composition. Even if the paper is from 1800's, it can be rewritten, which it itself instructs those who get it to do. Things are placed further back or further forward but the context is the most important imo, some things are seemingly happening at different times but in reality we really do not know when some of these events occurred.

The whole thing is extremely interesting to me, to say the least and even if the story is not 100% true and correct, the feel you get when you read it makes one not want to totally disgard it without due investigation, which is what we are doing.

It claims to be a very original language and contains etymologies that are nonsense in other languages, like Minerva.(Fryan - my heritage) Gives explanations for these people that sound true to form. These people may have been around in Northern Europe and Scandinavia during the Nordic Bronze Age, around 2200BC many changes take place across the world and this (2194BC) is the time Atland is said to have sunken. This does not have to be Atlantis but it's hard to separate the 2 on occasions and some scholars past have tied them together.

Read this introduction by Ottema, he transliterated the original into a text that could then be translated:

http://www.sacred-te...l/olb/olb02.htm

This is the Angelfire site, where you can read the transliterated and English translation side by side.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

This one is the original text, as photocopied by Knul, who is here in the thread:

http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html

Here's a Frisian dictionary that may be of use: (it's easily readable, look for the English words - English language is closest to Frisian language).

http://www.koeblerge...rieswbhinw.html

:tu:

Edited by The Puzzler
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The spelling of the OLB has a wide spelling variety indeed, but is also inconsistent. Because of the claim, that the OLB is written in Old Frisian it would be best to compare it with Old Frisian. Therefore I made use of the DRW transcription (DRW = Deutsche Rechtswissenschaft, most Old Frisian texts have juridical contents).

The language is very old Fries, still older and purer than the Fries Rjuchtboek or old Fries laws, differing from that both in form and spelling, so that it appears to be an entirely distinct dialect, and shows that the locality of the language must have been (as it was spoken) between the Vlie and the Scheldt.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/atl/olb/olb02.htm

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The split U is W

If you mean the U with a vertical line in the middle then you are wrong. That is not the same as a W or VV.

Many words with that letter are spelled in modern dutch with "eu" or "ui" (but you will have no idea how to pronounce that).

The U with a dot in centre is an oo sound.

How do you know?

I don´t think you are right.

Please name some words with that letter and see how those words have degenerated into modern languages.

we'd say Doosseldorf

No way.

Just listen to this video at 1:07 how "ü" is pronounced in german:

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The spelling of the OLB has a wide spelling variety indeed, but is also inconsistent. Because of the claim, that the OLB is written in Old Frisian it would be best to compare it with Old Frisian.

What do you mean with "inconsistent"?

Oldfrisian also has a wide spelling variety, as have most older languages.

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The Oera Linda Book is a 19th-century manuscript ...

The manuscript's author is not known ...

It is not at all a proven fact that it would have been written in the 19th century (neither is the claim that the paper would be of that age).

Trying to identify the author(s) is like searching for a murderer, when it is still possible that the deceased died a natural death.

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The Oera Linda Book is a 19th-century manuscript written in Old Frisian. It purports to cover historical, mythological, and religious themes of remote antiquity, compiled between 2194 BC and AD 803.

The manuscript's author is not known with certainty, and it is hence unknown whether the intention was to produce a hoax, a parody or simply an exercise in poetic fantasy.

The manuscript first came to public awareness in the 1860s. In 1872, Jan Gerhardus Ottema published a Dutch translation and defended it as "genuine". Over the next few years there was a heated public controversy, but by 1879 it was universally recognized that the text was a recent composition. Nevertheless, a public controversy was revived in the context of 1930s Nazi occultism, and the book is still occasionally brought up in esotericism and "Atlantis" literature.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Oera_Linda

The Oera Linda Book has been written in a sort of Old Frisian. It is basically a word-for-word translation of a Dutch literary story written by Dr. J. H. Halbertsma. For the script a self invented jol-script has been used by Ernst Stadermann and Cornelis over de Linden.

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It is basically a word-for-word translation of a Dutch literary story written by Dr. J. H. Halbertsma.

For the script a self invented jol-script has been used by Ernst Stadermann and Cornelis over de Linden.

All this is merely Knul´s theory, which I think is nonsense.

Detailed arguments against it have been posted earlier.

Right now I don´t feel like repeating them.

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If you mean the U with a vertical line in the middle then you are wrong. That is not the same as a W or VV.

Many words with that letter are spelled in modern dutch with "eu" or "ui" (but you will have no idea how to pronounce that).

How do you know?

I don´t think you are right.

Please name some words with that letter and see how those words have degenerated into modern languages.

No way.

Just listen to this video at 1:07 how "ü" is pronounced in german:

[media=]

[/media]

What has German got anything to do with anything? Frisian is closest to ENGLISH. Keep that in mind.

Pronounce Wr'alda. What would you say? Every word in the OLB that has the split U is w and is written as W or what looks like double V because that is what W originally was, it did not have the V sound however, as it was also written as double U. There is no W in the OLB alphabet for that reason, because the split U is W. Our English W has no hint of a V sound, that is just German accent.

Edited by The Puzzler
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The city was never called that.

Certainly not in OLB and nowhere else that I know of.

Wikipedia says it was called Villa Lintarwrde, I'm only going on that information.

The name "Leeuwarden" (or older spelling variants) first came into use for Nijehove, the most important one of the three villages that later merged into one, in the early 9th century (Villa Lintarwrde c. 825)

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Leeuwarden

Edited by The Puzzler
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Frisian is closest to ENGLISH.

Modern Frisian (Nyfrysk) is closer to English than is Oldfrisian.

But Oldfrisian is closest to

1. Dutch, then

2. German, then

3. the Scandinavian dialects, and then

4. English.

It could not be more obvious that you have never read OLB in its original language or even compared the various translations.

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Why do I feel that seriously replying to you is an utter waste of time?

Don't worry, I know there is no spilt U's in the OLB text, there is only W - so don't waste your time, I'm miles ahead.

Now you find W in the OLB alphabet, it doesn't exist - that is why I say that - because every W is really a split U, just written as what is says a double U.

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