Son of God Divi Filius Augustus Caesar

[Davros of Skaro]

Wait, I just checked the date - 150 AD, or near enough. You've repeatedly argued the gospel dates as 65-100 AD, why does this source written 50+ years later deserve greater significance than a text written decades earlier.

Just take note the passage timeframe written about is around the time the first gospel was written.Suetonius was writing histories

of Roman leaders, and was not trying to prop up one man as the Son of God with connecting prophecies.

Then it appears the significance of this passage went over your head - Jesus was not saying Gentiles were "dogs".

Mark 7:24-7:30, and Matthew 15:21-15:28 sure looks that way to me.Roman citizens thought they were the peak of civilization, and the Jewish thought they were God's chosen people (still do.)

But as an aside, you stated once before that both Jesus and Caesar had an affinity for the masses and therefore shows proof of collusion. Shouldn't the reverse be equally true? If Jesus did NOT display similar signs here, it therefore proves that Jesus was not a copycat.

Unless you want to move the goal posts!

Jesus did not copy anything for he is fiction.The unknown writers/forgers pulled many elements of theology, and philosophy of antiquity to make Philos/Pauls Logos into an Earthly deity.

Here is Caesar writing in the 3rd person, and it kind of sounds like the gathering of people where ever Jesus went to me.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/caesar/CaesarGal08.html

(8.51)Caesar, on his arrival, was received by the principal towns and colonies with incredible respect and affection; for this was the first time he came since the war against united Gaul. Nothing was omitted which could be thought of for the ornament of the gates, roads, and every place through which Caesar was to pass. All the people with their children went out to meet him. Sacrifices were offered up in every quarter. The market places and temples were laid out with entertainments, as if anticipating the joy of a most splendid triumph. So great was the magnificence of the richer and zeal of the poorer ranks of the people.

If only Jesus written things down, we would not be having this conversation.

Ah, so those who read your post and agree have searched the truth. Those who disagree are among the Theist/Atheist bundle you put forward before.

Not really that surprising...

When I was 8 the theology of Jesus Christ smelled of rotten fish to me.For decades I thought he was an historical person, but now I know he is made up.I can understand people thinking he is historical for he's so ingrained into society, but buying into dying for our sins is childish fantasy.

[Davros of Skaro]

This is a little misleading. Iraneaus' reference was the first to reference all 4 canonical gospels together in that context, but other references to single books are dated to much earlier periods.

Honest scholarship dates the first Gospel to 50-55AD. Some push it out to 75AD but it has been argued that the lack of any reference to the destruction of the Temple in 70AD indicates the writing predates that event... and this is reasonable speculation, imo.

The early dating of the Muratorian fragment indicates most of the NT was already worked out and settled before 200AD.

These efforts to connect the NT books to some Roman fiction are really half baked. The history connecting the gospel narratives to Greek Mystery cults dating to 500BC time frames is better supported. If anything the Roman similarities were copycat claims made after the fact (of the Life of Jesus).

"Hey! What's a stigmata you?!"...Padre Pio

[Dash--]

Awesome.I did not know that Hadrian's letter to Servianus was part of the collection called "Augustan History", and that it's authenticity is in dispute.However Chirist Greek for Kristos (anointed, or wetted with oil) is not exclusive to Jesus Christ, and there were a multitude of cults going back to antiquity.

I know P.A. is limited by phone bandwith, but you might be interested in the challenge I offered him for it's open to anybody.

If you can show me the symbology (not writings) of the ancient Romans using crucifixion as described in the Gospels at around the turn of the common era?

Not interested in a "challenge",only civil discussion.I enjoy your posts,so to win would be to lose. Thanks anyway.

Though,I am curious as to what evidence fits your criteria?

The practice of crucifixion in antiquity was brought to life as never before when the heel bones of a young man named Yehohanan were found in a Jerusalem tomb, pierced by an iron nail. The discovery shed new light on Roman crucifixion methods and began to rewrite the history of crucifixion in antiquity. Photo: ©Erich Lessing

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/crucifixion/a-tomb-in-jerusalem-reveals-the-history-of-crucifixion-and-roman-crucifixion-methods/

Of high interest because of the very exceptional cases, it appears the representation of a Roman crucifixion found recently in a graffiti of a taberna of Pozzuoli, located in the vicinity of the amphitheater.

http://www.infotdgeova.it/dottrine/pozzuoli.php (The page is in Italian)

“IN CRVCE FIGARVS” Graffito in the Stabian Baths

in Pompeii (CIL IV, § 2082 and Table VI § 3)

_2.

http://ifpeakoilwerenoobject.blogspot.com/2012/12/crucifixion-bodily-support-acuta-crux.html (Recently found this site.Very detailed.)

Any of this relevant to what you're looking for,Davros?

[+Paranoid Android]

Just take note the passage timeframe written about is around the time the first gospel was written.Suetonius was writing histories

of Roman leaders, and was not trying to prop up one man as the Son of God with connecting prophecies.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my point. Consider:

Mark 65-70 CE

Matthew 75-80 CE

Luke 75-90 CE

John 85-100? CE

The Lives of Twelve Caesars 121 AD

Considering the dating, isn't it more likely that if one did copy the other then the sources used by Suetonius borrowed from the gospels, rather then the gospels borrowing from something not written up to 56 years later?

Mark 7:24-7:30, and Matthew 15:21-15:28 sure looks that way to me.Roman citizens thought they were the peak of civilization, and the Jewish thought they were God's chosen people (still do.)

Jesus was emphasising his earthly mission, and in fact praises the Greek women for her faith.

Jesus did not copy anything for he is fiction.The unknown writers/forgers pulled many elements of theology, and philosophy of antiquity to make Philos/Pauls Logos into an Earthly deity.

Here is Caesar writing in the 3rd person, and it kind of sounds like the gathering of people where ever Jesus went to me.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/caesar/CaesarGal08.html

(8.51)Caesar, on his arrival, was received by the principal towns and colonies with incredible respect and affection; for this was the first time he came since the war against united Gaul. Nothing was omitted which could be thought of for the ornament of the gates, roads, and every place through which Caesar was to pass. All the people with their children went out to meet him. Sacrifices were offered up in every quarter. The market places and temples were laid out with entertainments, as if anticipating the joy of a most splendid triumph. So great was the magnificence of the richer and zeal of the poorer ranks of the people.

If only Jesus written things down, we would not be having this conversation.

Jesus' mission was a grassroots movement for the masses. It would have been counterproductive to waste his time writing stuff down that could only be read by the 5% intellectual elite who could read at the time.

When I was 8 the theology of Jesus Christ smelled of rotten fish to me.For decades I thought he was an historical person, but now I know he is made up.I can understand people thinking he is historical for he's so ingrained into society, but buying into dying for our sins is childish fantasy.

I didn't grow up in a Christian household and didn't hear of Jesus until I was 12 years old. Seven years later, as a 19-year old studying at university I turned and accepted him as my saviour. It made sense to me and I've not had reason to regret that decision in the last 14 years (I'm 33 now).

You don't accept an historical Jesus, but virtually all historians disagree with you on it. You can side with the scholarly minority if you wish, that's up to you. I'll stick with the consensus in this matter.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[Davros of Skaro]

If you can show me the symbology (not writings) of the ancient Romans using crucifixion as described in the Gospels at around the turn of the common era?

Not interested in a "challenge",only civil discussion.I enjoy your posts,so to win would be to lose. Thanks anyway.

Though,I am curious as to what evidence fits your criteria?

The practice of crucifixion in antiquity was brought to life as never before when the heel bones of a young man named Yehohanan were found in a Jerusalem tomb, pierced by an iron nail. The discovery shed new light on Roman crucifixion methods and began to rewrite the history of crucifixion in antiquity. Photo: ©Erich Lessing

http://www.biblicala...fixion-methods/

Of high interest because of the very exceptional cases, it appears the representation of a Roman crucifixion found recently in a graffiti of a taberna of Pozzuoli, located in the vicinity of the amphitheater.

http://www.infotdgeo...ne/pozzuoli.php (The page is in Italian)

“IN CRVCE FIGARVS” Graffito in the Stabian Baths

in Pompeii (CIL IV, § 2082 and Table VI § 3)

_2.

http://ifpeakoilwere...acuta-crux.html (Recently found this site.Very detailed.)

Any of this relevant to what you're looking for,Davros?

Ok....Enjoy the ride.

The nail in the shin bone from 1968 is the only physical evidence (Human remains) provided for crucifixion by the ancient Romans that I know of.In pic 1 & 2 it is clear to me from the bent tip compared to the full foot reconstruction it's too short to fasten it to something.In pic 3 this guy thinks he found cruci nails, but I find bent nails all the time metal detecting from square nails (colonial) to modern.Helena the mother of Constantine found not only the cross of Jesus (identified by healing a dying women), but she found the nails too.

I do not what to think of the Pozzuoli graffito.I thought it was a flying squirrel on a stick at first.It is a man, but why is the crossbeam more like a string,or rope unlike the vertical pole.I do not doubt Romans crucified people (noncitizens) for it's part of the "Twelve Laws", but I personaly doubt it's as described in the Bible.If this man is being crucified?Does he have a pole up his rectum, and grabbing a rope to ease his pain?The pic is inconclusive, and I am looking for a more definitive example in pic 4 (triumphal relief of Emperor Trajan with impaled heads.)

Pompeii is an ideal place to look for clues, because the time capsule nature of the place.Anyone going there

has a chance to look for symbology most tourists will overlook.The play on words of the graffiti texts is interesting, but I have looked myself into the texts, and I find no concrete answer due to several factors including my own linguistic limitations.

According to Franseco Carotta;Crucify replaced the homophones translation of Latin "cremo" cremate,Greek kremo "to hang"(impale).For example Caesar was cremated (cremo),and a wax effigy was hanged (kremo) on a Tropaion.

Is Crucifixion by the ancient Romans impalement like Vlad Tepes the Impaler thru the rectum, or head on a pike?Did they hang people with the arms outstretched to impair breathing? Did they nail people to a cross as outlined in the NT?

Is the passage of Tacitus Annals (15.44) accurate about nailing to crosses? Or did a later scribe change this to better match his faith?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/txt/ah/tacitus/tacitusannals15.html

Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.

Christianity has been an institution of power for a very long time.I see evidence that the cross symbol has been a divine symbol prior to Christian influence, and I do not see such a symbol used as described in the NT.

The rest of the pics are of personified Goddeses (cross earings) of Venus, Fides (fidelity virtue), Pietas (piety virtue), and some have sacred Tropaions which was reserved for Victoria (prisoners reserved for the base of the trophy.)

[Davros of Skaro]

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my point. Consider:

Mark 65-70 CE

Matthew 75-80 CE

Luke 75-90 CE

John 85-100? CE

The Lives of Twelve Caesars 121 AD

Considering the dating, isn't it more likely that if one did copy the other then the

sources used by Suetonius borrowed from the gospels, rather then the gospels borrowing

from something not written up to 56 years later?

Who knows where Suetonius information came from? Go spit in a blind person's eyes, and

see if you can do miracles like Jesus, and Vespasian. LOL!

Jesus was emphasising his earthly mission, and in fact praises the Greek women for her

faith.

Yes, obedience that is praise worthy for a dog, or a horse is a trait for Christianity.

Jesus' mission was a grassroots movement for the masses. It would have been

counterproductive to waste his time writing stuff down that could only be read by the 5%

intellectual elite who could read at the time.

David Koresh was a grassroots movement in Waco Texas.Yes it was a waste of time to write

things down, because end time was just around the corner (enjoy the wait.)Good thing the

literacy rate worldwide has increased.

I didn't grow up in a Christian household and didn't hear of Jesus until I was 12 years

old. Seven years later, as a 19-year old studying at university I turned and accepted him

as my saviour. It made sense to me and I've not had reason to regret that decision in the

last 14 years (I'm 33 now).

I didn't grow up in a Christian household either, but having the same Bible since 1984

has reaffirmed how ridiculous it is.

You don't accept an historical Jesus, but virtually all historians disagree with you on

it. You can side with the scholarly minority if you wish, that's up to you. I'll stick

with the consensus in this matter.

Look at secular historians on how the Gospels fail on historical accuracy.

Pics 1-4 shows the daggers that are set in loops over the cross on the pope's robe.

Pic 5 is Caesar being attacked by daggers.

pics 6-7 Seashell on Pope's robes, and Vatican artwork.

Pic 8 Goddess Aphrodite of ancient Greece born of Seafoam riding on a seashell.The Romans transformed Aphrodite to the Goddess Venus which is Caesar's celestial mother.

Pic 9 Coin of Caesar with Elephant stepping on a Serpent (did Caesar escape original sin?) with vestments (Flamen Dialis) of the priest for Jupiter (highest God of Rome) on obsverse.

Edit;pics gotten a little mixed number wise, but easily discerned.

Edited November 4, 2013 by davros of skaro

[+Paranoid Android]

Who knows where Suetonius information came from? Go spit in a blind person's eyes, and

see if you can do miracles like Jesus, and Vespasian. LOL!

So let me see if I have this straight. You quoted Suetonius as evidence that people copied events such as this and incorporated it into the Jesus myth. Now when quizzed add to where Suetonius got his information you have no idea. And since the gospels were in circulation by the time Suetonius wrote this text you cannot rule it out as the source. And the best response you can give is "who knows where Suetonius got his information from". Why not use the same response for the story of Jesus spitting in a person's eyes - "who knows where the gospel writer got his information from".

Sounds like double standards

Yes, obedience that is praise worthy for a dog, or a horse is a trait for Christianity.

Faith is what Jesus praised the woman for, not obedience.

David Koresh was a grassroots movement in Waco Texas.Yes it was a waste of time to write

things down, because end time was just around the corner (enjoy the wait.)Good thing the

literacy rate worldwide has increased.

I smell a Red Herring.

I didn't grow up in a Christian household either, but having the same Bible since 1984

has reaffirmed how ridiculous it is.

I get you don't believe it. I'm not demanding you do. I was just pointing out that it made sense to me, and still does today.

Look at secular historians on how the Gospels fail on historical accuracy.

Pics 1-4 shows the daggers that are set in loops over the cross on the pope's robe.

Pic 5 is Caesar being attacked by daggers.

pics 6-7 Seashell on Pope's robes, and Vatican artwork.

Pic 8 Goddess Aphrodite of ancient Greece born of Seafoam riding on a seashell.The Romans transformed Aphrodite to the Goddess Venus which is Caesar's celestial mother.

Pic 9 Coin of Caesar with Elephant stepping on a Serpent (did Caesar escape original sin?) with vestments (Flamen Dialis) of the priest for Jupiter (highest God of Rome) on obsverse.

Edit;pics gotten a little mixed number wise, but easily discerned.

I loved the Wizard of Oz, but that doesn't mean I want to deal with Straw Men in online discussion. What secular historians think of the historicity of the gospels is irrelevant as to whether they accept an historical Jesus.

[Davros of Skaro]

So let me see if I have this straight. You quoted Suetonius as evidence that people copied events such as this and incorporated it into the Jesus myth. Now when quizzed add to where Suetonius got his information you have no idea. And since the gospels were in circulation by the time Suetonius wrote this text you cannot rule it out as the source. And the best response you can give is "who knows where Suetonius got his information from". Why not use the same response for the story of Jesus spitting in a person's eyes - "who knows where the gospel writer got his information from".

Sounds like double standards

You know historians from antiquity rarely cited sources.Atleast it's known who Suetonius was, and an institution did not slap a name on his work.

Faith is what Jesus praised the woman for, not obedience.

To instill obedience on the reader.

I smell a Red Herring.

Revelation 22:7

I get you don't believe it. I'm not demanding you do. I was just pointing out that it made sense to me, and still does today.

John 3:16

I loved the Wizard of Oz, but that doesn't mean I want to deal with Straw Men in online discussion. What secular historians think of the historicity of the gospels is irrelevant as to whether they accept an historical Jesus.

Behind closed doors is a different story, but I cannot prove that no more than you can prove an historical Jesus.

[+Paranoid Android]

You know historians from antiquity rarely cited sources.Atleast it's known who Suetonius was, and an institution did not slap a name on his work.

You've still failed to support your view that the Jesus-myth was copied from Suetonius.

To instill obedience on the reader.

Or to instil Faith in the reader?

Revelation 22:7

John 3:16

I'm still not forcing you to believe what I believe, so what the Bible says is just that - what the Bible says; you don't have to agree with it.

Behind closed doors is a different story, but I cannot prove that no more than you can prove an historical Jesus.

I disagree, when even secular historians agree that there was an historical figure named Jesus who began the Christian movement, the obvious truth is that such a figure did indeed exist. Perhaps stories about his supernatural powers were exaggerated and added in, perhaps oral tradition affected various stories. I've said it before, and now again - I willingly accept the New Testament on Faith. What I don't take on Faith is the existence of Jesus, this is as close to historical fact as anything from ancient history.

[Dash--]

Ok....Enjoy the ride.

The nail in the shin bone from 1968 is the only physical evidence (Human remains) provided for crucifixion by the ancient Romans that I know of.In pic 1 & 2 it is clear to me from the bent tip compared to the full foot reconstruction it's too short to fasten it to something

Did you read the link I gave? I admit,I sometimes glance over links when i'm in a rush.

This is an excerpt from the archaeologist article.

-The most dramatic evidence that this young man was crucified was the nail which penetrated his heel bones. But for this nail, we might never have discovered that the young man had died in this way. The nail was preserved only because it hit a hard knot when it was pounded into the olive wood upright of the cross. The olive wood knot was so hard that, as the blows on the nail became heavier, the end of the nail bent and curled. We found a bit of the olive wood (between 1 and 2 cm) on the tip of the nail. This wood had probably been forced out of the knot where the curled nail hooked into it.

-From the way in which the bones were attached, we can infer the man’s position on the cross. The two heel bones were attached on their adjacent inside (medial) surfaces. The nail went through the right heel bone and then the left. Since the same nail went through both heels, the legs were together, not apart, on the cross.http://www.biblicala...fixion-methods/

Being that neither of us have the remains to examine for ourself,I find it hard to go against the grain of a man that has.

Born on the Isle of Samos, in Greece, Vassilios Tzaferis received a Ph.D. from Hebrew University in Jerusalem. He has directed many excavations, including those at Ashkelon, Tiberius, Beth Shean, Capernaum and at various locations in Jerusalem.

.In pic 3 this guy thinks he found cruci nails, but I find bent nails all the time metal detecting from square nails (colonial) to modern.Helena the mother of Constantine found not only the cross of Jesus (identified by healing a dying women), but she found the nails too.

Not sure what you're referring to.Pic 3 on my computer shows an illustrated rendering of the Pozzuoli graffiti.

It is a man, but why is the crossbeam more like a string,or rope unlike the vertical pole.

Maybe lack of artistic skills? I can certainly relate.(especially in stone)

I do not doubt Romans crucified people (noncitizens) for it's part of the "Twelve Laws", but I personaly doubt it's as described in the Bible.

Curious,but why do you doubt it? It doesn't seem like a huge leap to get from archaeological evidence and descriptions depicted to what is described in the Gospels.

If this man is being crucified?Does he have a pole up his rectum, and grabbing a rope to ease his pain?

He very well may have.As I assume you already know it wasn't unheard of.Though,if you're implying this might have happened to Jesus,it could have.If it did occur,I,for one,understand and appreciate the writers omission of that detail.

But as for the rope:

No detectable ropes or rings. http://www.infotdgeo...ne/pozzuoli.php

Is Crucifixion by the ancient Romans impalement like Vlad Tepes the Impaler thru the rectum, or head on a pike?Did they hang people with the arms outstretched to impair breathing? Did they nail people to a cross as outlined in the NT?

Is the passage of Tacitus Annals (15.44) accurate about nailing to crosses? Or did a later scribe change this to better match his faith?

I would say yes to all of the above,or at least the possibilities.Roman crucifixion methods varied.To what extent would only be a guess.

[Doug1029]

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my point. Consider:

Mark 65-70 CE

Matthew 75-80 CE

Luke 75-90 CE

John 85-100? CE

The Lives of Twelve Caesars 121 AD

Considering the dating, isn't it more likely that if one did copy the other then the sources used by Suetonius borrowed from the gospels, rather then the gospels borrowing from something not written up to 56 years later?

All these dates have been challenged by established scholars. It is entirely possible that the gospels were ALL written after The Twelve Caesars. Sorry, PA, but all you've posted is speculation. At least read Walter Cassells' study ("Supernatural Religion") on the development of the gospels before you go jumping to conclusions. It's a carefully researched study and well worth the time it takes to read it.

Another consideration: The four writings we call the gospels are re-hashes of previous writings. SOME of those earlier writings date from the 60s (AD) or even earlier, so it is entirely reasonable for references to events in the 40s through 60s to be in them. What is not reasonable is for references to events that happened in the 130s and 150s to be in books written in the 60s.

Doug

[+Paranoid Android]

Yes Doug, I know you believe the gospels are products of 2nd century authorship. We've discussed it several times. For whatever reason, mainstream scholarship (not apologetics, but including non-Christians also) dates the gospels in the 1st century (latest gospel, John, circa 90-120 AD).

As with most scholarly consensus I tend to take the majority view myself (with rare exceptions, and I happily admit I am taking a minority view with those things).

[Davros of Skaro]

You've still failed to support your view that the Jesus-myth was copied from Suetonius.

I am just pointing out that Mark 8:23, and the passage in Suetonius life of Vespasian is

a strange coincidence.Though Suetonius writes about it decades later, the passage of Mark

was written around the same time period of Vespasian's supposed act.What a strange

uncommon thing to spit in someone's eyes.

Or to instil Faith in the reader?

I see racism, and you see the miracle of Jesus.Some people say it does not matter if

Jesus existed, or not, and that his message is what's important.The thing is that his

main message is to have faith in him.

I'm still not forcing you to believe what I believe, so what the Bible says is just that

- what the Bible says; you don't have to agree with it.

I do not find you preaching to me, nor do I accuse you of it.Have you read the entire

Bible cover to cover?Not at one time of course.

I disagree, when even secular historians agree that there was an historical figure named

Jesus who began the Christian movement, the obvious truth is that such a figure did

indeed exist. Perhaps stories about his supernatural powers were exaggerated and added

in, perhaps oral tradition affected various stories. I've said it before, and now again -

I willingly accept the New Testament on Faith. What I don't take on Faith is the

existence of Jesus, this is as close to historical fact as anything from ancient history.

I see weak arguments for existence.We might as well except that the mythical founder of

Rome existed.Romulus was born of a Vestal virging thru the God Mars, there was a strong

oral tradition of his death, and resurrection inwhich the ancient Romans performed

passion plays for.I know for myself several things that are true that the majority of the proffesional institutions would say are false, but I cannot prove it.

Why does the Pope wear red shoes like the early Roman kings?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Roman_Kingdom (see monarchy)

The insignia of the kings of Rome were twelve lictors wielding the fasces bearing axes,

the right to sit upon a Curule chair, the purple Toga Picta, red shoes, and a white

diadem around the head. Of all these insignia, the most important was the purple toga.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Papal_shoes

Caesar was accused of trying to be king.

http://penelope.uchi...rs/Julius*.html

79 2 But from that time on he could not rid himself of the odium of having aspired to the

title of monarch, although he replied to the commons, when they hailed him as king, "I am

Caesar and no king," and at the Lupercalia, when the consul Antony several times

attempted to place a crown upon his head as he spoke from the rostra, he put it aside and

at last sent it to the Capitol, to be offered to Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

John 19:15 "We have no King but Caesar" the chief priests replied.

For those that like videos, and interviews below.

Interview starts @ 19:08.Dr. Carrier talks about his book "Proving History", how modern

Jesus studies is flawed, and Bayes theorim.

[media=]

[Davros of Skaro]

Did you read the link I gave? I admit,I sometimes glance over links when i'm in a rush.

I do not care what that guy says, because one does not have to be a crime scene investigator to see that nail is too short )see my pics.)

A State Park near me was what used to be farmsteads from the 1700's.In the 1950s workmen moved a large boulder, and underneath

was skeleton hands in rusted shackles.People did all sorts of sick punishments thru the ages.

Not sure what you're referring to.Pic 3 on my computer shows an illustrated rendering of the Pozzuoli graffiti.

I am talking about my pictures that I posted.

Curious,but why do you doubt it? It doesn't seem like a huge leap to get from archaeological evidence and descriptions depicted to what is described in the Gospels.

Did you see the first video in the first post?

He very well may have.As I assume you already know it wasn't unheard of.Though,if you're implying this might have happened to Jesus,it could have.If it did occur,I,for one,understand and appreciate the writers omission of that detail.

But as for the rope:

No detectable ropes or rings. http://www.infotdgeo...ne/pozzuoli.php

Can you find a picture that covers more area of the wall?

Edited November 6, 2013 by davros of skaro

[+Paranoid Android]

I am just pointing out that Mark 8:23, and the passage in Suetonius life of Vespasian is

a strange coincidence.Though Suetonius writes about it decades later, the passage of Mark

was written around the same time period of Vespasian's supposed act.What a strange

uncommon thing to spit in someone's eyes.

Yet because of the date of the Twelve Caesar's, it simply cannot be proof-positive that Mark used Vespasian for the basis of this myth.

I see racism, and you see the miracle of Jesus.Some people say it does not matter if

Jesus existed, or not, and that his message is what's important.The thing is that his

main message is to have faith in him.

I disagree with those who don't think it maters if Jesus was real or not, but it's their Right to believe what they like.

do not find you preaching to me, nor do I accuse you of it.Have you read the entire

Bible cover to cover?Not at one time of course.

I did read the Bible literally cover to cover once (I'm several sittings), early I'm my Christian life but wouldn't recommend it again. I started at Genesis, and by the time I hit Numbers and Deuteronomy my mine was tired with list after list of laws and genealogies. By the time I hit Psalms and Proverbs I was saying to myself "oh look, another song praising God". By the New Testament I'd read four consecutive accounts of Jesus' life. And then book after book of random teachings. In short, it was tiresome and I learned very little.

Since then, of course, I've read every verse of every chapter of every book several times, but not in cover to cover order. It's much easier and intellectually stimulating to read Leviticus, then Luke, then Numbers, then Acts, then Deuteronomy, etc than it is to read Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy back to back.

I see weak arguments for existence.

Scholars by and large disagree, I tend to take the scholarly majority in this matter.

might as well except that the mythical founder of

Rome existed.Romulus was born of a Vestal virging thru the God Mars, there was a strong

oral tradition of his death, and resurrection inwhich the ancient Romans performed

passion plays for.I know for myself several things that are true that the majority of the proffesional institutions would say are false, but I cannot prove it.

Why does the Pope wear red shoes like the early Roman kings?

http://en.wikipedia....i/Roman_Kingdom (see monarchy)

The insignia of the kings of Rome were twelve lictors wielding the fasces bearing axes,

the right to sit upon a Curule chair, the purple Toga Picta, red shoes, and a white

diadem around the head. Of all these insignia, the most important was the purple toga.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Papal_shoes

Caesar was accused of trying to be king.

http://penelope.uchi...rs/Julius*.html

79 2 But from that time on he could not rid himself of the odium of having aspired to the

title of monarch, although he replied to the commons, when they hailed him as king, "I am

Caesar and no king," and at the Lupercalia, when the consul Antony several times

attempted to place a crown upon his head as he spoke from the rostra, he put it aside and

at last sent it to the Capitol, to be offered to Jupiter Optimus Maximus.

John 19:15 "We have no King but Caesar" the chief priests replied.

For those that like videos, and interviews below.

Interview starts @ 19:08.Dr. Carrier talks about his book "Proving History", how modern

Jesus studies is flawed, and Bayes theorim.

[media=]

I wasn't looking for more examples of your theory.

[Heru]

Let's see here. Augustus Caesar (Octavian) ruled from 27 BC to 14 AD. The biblical Jesus was executed in 33 AD. The earliest known snippet of text to make it into the gospels is a quotation from Philo written in 41 AD describing the hazing of a mentally-challenged man named Carabbas in which the tormenters placed a purple robe on him and hung a sign around his neck that read "King of the Jews." Sound familiar?

The earliest known reference to the gospels is from Ireneaus' "Against Heresies" Book III, written about 186AD; although, there is a reference in Book I (c. 183 AD) to Matthew that probably refers to what we now call the Gospel of Matthew. Theophilus of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before his death in 180 AD.

I can make a circumstantial case for Matthew and Mark having been written between 132 and 135 AD, but there is no actual reference to them from that time. Whether Luke/Acts was a source for Marcion (excommunicated in 144AD), or whether Marcion was a source for Luke/Acts has never been clearly demonstrated. One can argue forever whether Justin ("Second Apology"; c. 152 AD) quoted from the gospels or whether the gospel writers quoted Justin, but I note that Justin's sources weren't the modern gospels - Justin tells of the Jordan catching fire as Jesus emerges from it after being baptized. That story didn't come from the modern versions.

One can also trace the evolution of Jesus' divinity by comparing the dates of ancient writings: in earlier ones there is no mention of his divinity, but as time passes, stories of his divinity get added.

All things considered, basing the Jesus stories in part on Augustus Caesar fits right into the way things were done in those days. I agree that there is no solid evidence that this was done, but then again, there is no solid evidence that this wasn't done.

Doug

VI. (36) There was a certain madman named Carabbas, afflicted not with a wild, savage, and dangerous madness (for that comes on in fits without being expected either by the patient or by bystanders), but with an intermittent and more gentle kind; this man spent all this days and nights naked in the roads, minding neither cold nor heat, the sport of idle children and wanton youths; (37) and they, driving the poor wretch as far as the public gymnasium, and setting him up there on high that he might be seen by everybody, flattened out a leaf of papyrus and put it on his head instead of a diadem, and clothed the rest of his body with a common door mat instead of a cloak and instead of a sceptre they put in his hand a small stick of the native papyrus which they found lying by the way side and gave to him; (38) and when, like actors in theatrical spectacles, he had received all the insignia of royal authority, and had been dressed and adorned like a king, the young men bearing sticks on their shoulders stood on each side of him instead of spear-bearers, in imitation of the bodyguards of the king, and then others came up, some as if to salute him, and others making as though they wished to plead their causes before him, and others pretending to wish to consult with him about the affairs of the state. (39) Then from the multitude of those who were standing around there arose a wonderful shout of men calling out Maris; and this is the name by which it is said that they call the kings among the Syrians; for they knew that Agrippa was by birth a Syrian, and also that he was possessed of a great district of Syria of which he was the sovereign; (40) when Flaccus heard, or rather when he saw this, he would have done right if he had apprehended the maniac and put him in prison, that he might not give to those who reviled him any opportunity or excuse for insulting their superiors, and if he had chastised those who dressed him up for having dared both openly and disguisedly, both with words and actions, to insult a king and a friend of Caesar, and one who had been honoured by the Roman senate with imperial authority; but he not only did not punish them, but he did not think fit even to check them, but gave complete license and impunity to all those who designed ill, and who were disposed to show their enmity and spite to the king, pretending not to see what he did see, and not to hear what he did hear.

Doesnt sound like it has anything to do with jesus.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Heru

[Davros of Skaro]

The Santa factor is what I would call it, is what's running secular scholarship in Jesus

studies today.Just like a parent telling their child the truth about Santa, but telling

them not to discuss this revelation to his, or her classmates (let them find out for

themselves.) Time, and time again I hear from Christians that Jesus is the most

documented person in history, but they have apologists like Eusebius to thank.

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful

first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

Once one does the scrutiny of lifting up the veil on Jesus one will find his origins in;

Platonic philosophy (Greek morals/virtues)

Hellenistic Judaism (i.e. Ascension of Isaiah, and other Messianic tie ins)

Philo's Logos (He may not be the origin of this Archangel mediator for God concept)

Pagan culture (Many Sons of Gods that have a struggle)

Gnosticism (i.e. Jesus tells his disciples that his parables have a deeper meaning)

Jesus is a celestial deity that was never on Earth, but later went thru Euhemerism, and

placed on Earth to bring in more believers.

Remember that consensus does not include Civil War historians for instance, and implies

a small percentage of the total, which are mostly theologians to begin with.

http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/jhcjp.htm

[Heru]

The Santa factor is what I would call it, is what's running secular scholarship in Jesus

studies today.Just like a parent telling their child the truth about Santa, but telling

them not to discuss this revelation to his, or her classmates (let them find out for

themselves.) Time, and time again I hear from Christians that Jesus is the most

documented person in history, but they have apologists like Eusebius to thank.

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful

first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

Once one does the scrutiny of lifting up the veil on Jesus one will find his origins in;

Platonic philosophy (Greek morals/virtues)

Hellenistic Judaism (i.e. Ascension of Isaiah, and other Messianic tie ins)

Philo's Logos (He may not be the origin of this Archangel mediator for God concept)

Pagan culture (Many Sons of Gods that have a struggle)

Gnosticism (i.e. Jesus tells his disciples that his parables have a deeper meaning)

Jesus is a celestial deity that was never on Earth, but later went thru Euhemerism, and

placed on Earth to bring in more believers.

Remember that consensus does not include Civil War historians for instance, and implies

a small percentage of the total, which are mostly theologians to begin with.

http://www.jesuspuzz...s.net/jhcjp.htm

Jesus Stories = The Hanged Man XII

Christianity wasn't for the masses (actually it was the teachings from the Isiyim /*Essenes*/ one of the three main schools of Judaism), no spiritual teaching is ,nor was it back in the day of antiquity, meant for everyone. Until a certain psycho named Saul ... I mean Paul. Said it was for everyone and blah blah blah. Not hard to pass along to a large mass of people that were living like 5h*t and desperate for any means of hope.

No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. The problem isn't that there is no pearl to be found within the christian's texts but you and many others should not have access to it. Look how the initiation ritual was turned into some ultimate salvation to save gods special unique snowflake. Which is the total opposite of the ritual.

[Davros of Skaro]

Jesus Stories = The Hanged Man XII

Christianity wasn't for the masses (actually it was the teachings from the Isiyim /*Essenes*/ one of the three main schools of Judaism), no spiritual teaching is ,nor was it back in the day of antiquity, meant for everyone. Until a certain psycho named Saul ... I mean Paul. Said it was for everyone and blah blah blah. Not hard to pass along to a large mass of people that were living like 5h*t and desperate for any means of hope.

No reason to throw the baby out with the bath water. The problem isn't that there is no pearl to be found within the christian's texts but you and many others should not have access to it. Look how the initiation ritual was turned into some ultimate salvation to save gods special unique snowflake. Which is the total opposite of the ritual.

Bart Ehrman,Did Jesus Exist?:"The Talmud is a collection of disparate materials from early Judaism.Most of the material relates to the early rabbis.The collection was put together long after the days of Jesus."

Jesus is a hodgepodge of all sorts of thought from the regions of the ancient Roman Empire.Jesus telling the man to sell his stuff, giving the money to the poor, camel thru the eye of a needle etc is Essene like.Jesus withering a fig tree, chasing out money changers, and bringing a sword instead of peace is not Essene like.

You can keep the baby, and the bath water.

[Heru]

Bart Ehrman,Did Jesus Exist?:"The Talmud is a collection of disparate materials from early Judaism.Most of the material relates to the early rabbis.The collection was put together long after the days of Jesus."

Jesus is a hodgepodge of all sorts of thought from the regions of the ancient Roman Empire.Jesus telling the man to sell his stuff, giving the money to the poor, camel thru the eye of a needle etc is Essene like.Jesus withering a fig tree, chasing out money changers, and bringing a sword instead of peace is not Essene like.

You can keep the baby, and the bath water.

Apples and oranges bud.

Your talking about worthless stuff here.

And im talking about what 5h*7 means over there.

Who cares if he was alive or not. Either way it doesn't affect the message non. The Occult should remain the Occult. The sooner the masses forget about spiritual texts and all the religions/cults that popped up from it either disappear or return to the old ways the better. Specially before it becomes more muddled with stuff like Caesar = Jesus.

[Dash--]

I do not care what that guy says, because one does not have to be a crime scene investigator to see that nail is too short )see my pics.)

The nail is 4.53 inches long.I don't see why it couldn't be possible for his heels to be nailed separately on the sides of the upright,as modern scholars suggest.

What do you make of the inscription on the ossuary? Could it be related to crucifixion,as Prof. Yadin theorizes?http://www.jstor.org...=21102890280001

Any way you look at it,the majority of scholars educated in this area,agree that this man was crucified with his feet nailed to a "tree".

I'll admit,people should not be immovable in this subject.But for myself,it will take more convincing than just "see my pics" or "watch the video" to go against the mainstream scholarly view.

The archaeological evidence is there.The textual evidence is there.All showing that the Romans varied in their crucifixion methods.Nails,ropes,single stakes,crossbeams,etc.

Why then would you not consider the crucifixion,as described in the Gospels,to not be a possibility?

Did you see the first video in the first post?

I did.Lots of pics of coins,words flying by,and some nice background music.

Is there one point in particular?

Can you find a picture that covers more area of the wall?

I'll see what I can do.(bit of a madhouse right now)

[Everdred]

The great Comet of 44 BCE was seen as Julius Caesar's soul among the Gods.Octavian the grand nephew of Caesar,adopted son,and heir to his title became son of a God.

Augustus Caesar as Pontifex Maximus (Pope) started the Imperial Cult,and the Cult of Comet for the worship of the Deified Caesar.

Why do we not worship Caesar today? Watch the video,and feel free to comment.

Wiki for base reference

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Divi_filius

http://en.wikipedia....emple_of_Caesar

http://en.wikipedia....sar's_Comet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho

http://en.wikipedia....emple_of_Caesar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechane

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messiah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clementia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor

http://en.wikipedia....i/Flamen_Dialis

That was a pretty crappy video. While it only had few minor errors in what it said, basically all it consisted of was information on Caesar followed by a bunch of pictures that tried to imply that all figures of three lines intersecting must be related. Apparently such a simple symbol was deemed by the creator of the video as to complex for independent creation, which is just ridiculous. (And the Chi Rho has an obvious source of its creation--the letters Chi (X) and Rho (P).

The video I posted is backed by historical documentation, and physical proof.

You present Hollywood fiction.

Sorta ironic considering the video had random movies depicted in it, including Indiana Jones and the Titanic.

Caesar claimed lineage to his celestial mother the Goddess of love Venus (aka Morning

Star.)

But Venus wasn't Caesar's mother, she was (supposedly) his great great great great great (etc.) grandmother. The gen Iulia traced its lineage back a supposed namesake, Ascanius, son of Aeneas, who was sometimes also called Iulus. Apparently this was close enough to Iulius for them to go ahead and claim him as an ancestor, and therefore also Aeneas and his mother, Venus (Aphrodite). Certainly Caesar and his successors loved to promote this idea, but how believable it was to others is unknown.

And of course Caesar and Augustus also promoted the idea of descent from Mars, as Rhea Silva was, according to mythology, of the line of Ascanius. You've made a very weak connection between Venus and Jesus, but what's Jesus' connection to Mars?

The Senate named Caesar dictator perpetuo ("dictator in perpetuity"). Roman mints

produced a denarius coin with this title and his profile on one side, and with an image

of the goddess Ceres and Caesar's title of Augur Pontifex Maximus on the reverse. While

minting the title of dictator was not controversial, Caesar's image was, as it was

unusual to feature living consuls and other public officials on coins during the Republic.

More correctly, Caesar bought the Senate and compelled them to declare him dictator in perpetuo, which was ultimately his downfall. People were sorta okay with him being reappointed dictator each year, but dictator in perpetuo was seen as essentially the same as being king except for the title. And Romans really, really hated the idea of kings.

Coins of Divi Filius Son of God.

Let's be clear, Augustus never claimed to be the son of god, he claimed to be the son of a man who achieved apotheosis upon his death. And note that Divus isn't quite the same as being a Deus

Awesome.I did not know that Hadrian's letter to Servianus was part of the collection called "Augustan History", and that it's authenticity is in dispute.However Chirist Greek for Kristos (anointed, or wetted with oil) is not exclusive to Jesus Christ, and there were a multitude of cults going back to antiquity.

I know P.A. is limited by phone bandwith, but you might be interested in the challenge I offered him for it's open to anybody.

The Augustan History is certainly suspect, but plenty of it is perfectly accurate. The letter to Servianus is now widely accepted as fake due to the many basic errors its writer makes about Hadrian and Servianus. You can find a good discussion of its many errors here: http://books.google.com/books?id=BdQtshCmxZwC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA112#v=onepage&q&f=false

As for your claim about Christos (not Kristos, the first letter is Chi), it was indeed used for other people (mainly kings), but I don't really buy the claim that is was used by main cults. Any evidence for that?

Pompeii is an ideal place to look for clues, because the time capsule nature of the place.Anyone going there

has a chance to look for symbology most tourists will overlook.The play on words of the graffiti texts is interesting, but I have looked myself into the texts, and I find no concrete answer due to several factors including my own linguistic limitations.

I think it's a bit irresponsible to use textual evidence for which you yourself admit to not having the skills to properly understand. But let me help you with the "In Croce Figarus" text. "In Croce" is straightforward, it means "on/onto a cross". "Figarus" is a bit more difficult, but it clearly comes from the verb "figo" meaning "to fix, affix, fasten, drive or thrust in". The form specifically appears to be a variant on the subjunctive form, which is normally "figar", So we might then translate is as "may he be affixed onto a cross"--a clear reference crucifixion.

According to Franseco Carotta;Crucify replaced the homophones translation of Latin "cremo" cremate,Greek kremo "to hang"(impale).For example Caesar was cremated (cremo),and a wax effigy was hanged (kremo) on a Tropaion.

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say here, but let me make a few notes. First, "kremo" was not a Greek word; you're looking for "kremannumi" (an athematic verb) which was sometimes used as a thematic verb, with attested forms such as "kremuo", "kremao", "kremnao", and even "kremoo", but not "kremo". And the word did indeed mean "to hang, susped" but per the LSJ it did not have the sense of "to impale".

Also note that the Latin for "to crucify" was "crucio". It's etymology is clearly a derivation from the word "crux", a cross. It is unrelated to "cremo" and certainly did not replace "cremo",

They are still two narratives unrelated to one another that appear similar if you stretch some random facts to appear similar

Is it just me or does it seem that people obsessed with one conspiracy theory or another is compelled to copy-paste their alleged evidence over and over, as if anyone reading it will shout "Hallelujah, you've really figured it out".

An astute observation. I see nutters all the time pasting walls of text for various theories. It's a most curious practice.

Caesar was voted posthumous divine honours. Demetrius poliorcetes was voted divine honours whilst he was alive. Lysander was another, there are more, including Alexander and his father Phil. Both who had divine honours awarded during their lives. More than anyone it is likely that Alexander paved the way for peoples acceptance of the concept in the Greek and Roman world

Just to clarify this a bit, it was a Greek custom to deify kings while they were alive. Romans did not do this, but always waited until they were dead. Take for example Augustus. The Romans worshipped his father, not him, while the Greeks at the same time worshipped Augustus himself.

[+Paranoid Android]

The Santa factor is what I would call it, is what's running secular scholarship in Jesus

studies today.Just like a parent telling their child the truth about Santa, but telling

them not to discuss this revelation to his, or her classmates (let them find out for themselves

So secular historians in New Testament studies are keeping their mouths shut on the truth so they can let the rest of us work it out on our own. That has to be the most absurd claim I've ever seen from you. Even non-Christian scholars in this field almost universally accept the historicity of Jesus.

themselves.) Time, and time again I hear from Christians that Jesus is the most

documented person in history, but they have apologists like Eusebius to thank.

"We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful

first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Vol. 8, chapter 2.

Once one does the scrutiny of lifting up the veil on Jesus one will find his origins in;

Platonic philosophy (Greek morals/virtues)

Hellenistic Judaism (i.e. Ascension of Isaiah, and other Messianic tie ins)

Philo's Logos (He may not be the origin of this Archangel mediator for God concept)

Pagan culture (Many Sons of Gods that have a struggle)

Gnosticism (i.e. Jesus tells his disciples that his parables have a deeper meaning)

Jesus is a celestial deity that was never on Earth, but later went thru Euhemerism, and

placed on Earth to bring in more believers.

Some indeed argue the story of Jesus includes many elements of different myths. However, that is a far cry from saying "Jesus is a copy of *insert whatever name here*". And it's an even a farther cry to denying that there was a Jesus who began a movement later known as Christianity.

Remember that consensus does not include Civil War historians for instance, and implies

a small percentage of the total, which are mostly theologians to begin with.

http://www.jesuspuzzle.humanists.net/jhcjp.htm

Yes, I'm aware I'm not including all historians in my claims but rather those who specialise in the Ancient Near East. But it's the last refuge of the desperate to say that most of them are theologians. Sorry, that's total crap. Academic study of the New Testament is not glorified apologetics. Any claim otherwise is false - not necessarily intentionally false, but false nonetheless. Edited November 7, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[The Gremlin]

Everdred, your assertions about Greek and Roman 'traditions' of apotheosis are false, I don't know where you got your evidence to make such an assertion.

Philip of Macedon (alexander the great's dad) was the first to take (or be awarded) divine honours; by his late date in Greek culture it can hardly be considered tradition.

A number of men followed, but they were exceptional to say the least, it was not a common thing.

Among the Romans it was also far from traditiont: the idea was as offensive to them as it was to the common Greek or Macedonian. Rule over alien cultures, and the Hellenic world made it possible, and a necessary step politically.

Augustus was worshiped whilst still alive throughout the empire, the imperial cult continued until succeeded by Christianity. Considering it un-roman, Augustus himself discouraged the practice on Rome, but tolerated it.

[Davros of Skaro]

Apples and oranges bud.

Your talking about worthless stuff here.

And im talking about what 5h*7 means over there.

Who cares if he was alive or not. Either way it doesn't affect the message non. The Occult should remain the Occult. The sooner the masses forget about spiritual texts and all the religions/cults that popped up from it either disappear or return to the old ways the better. Specially before it becomes more muddled with stuff like Caesar = Jesus.

Why not get all parallelomania just like 5h*tgeist? Besides some people do not know what a wall of text is. LOL!

I will give a trait of Jesus, and show a looney tunes parallel related to Caesar, or the ancient Roman Empire.

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Mark 6:7 Calling the Twelve to him, he sent them out two by two and gave them authority over eil spirits.

I do not know how Caesar relates to the 12 signs of the Zodiac, but he did solidify, or made more stable the twelve months of the year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_calendar

Introduced the Julian calendar that long story short stopped political corruption by priests that at the time was called "confusion among the people" with the older system of floating days.According to Plutarch,Julius called in the best philosophers,and mathematicians of his time to solve the problem of the unstable calendar the Julian replaces.A century later,when Pliny dated the winter solstice to the 25th of December,because the sun entered the 8th degree of Capricorn on that date,this stability had become an ordinary fact of life.

The Romans borrowed, and mutated the Greek religion, and other stuff as well down the line (wink wink.) The Twelve Olympians are the head pantheon of Greek/Roman Gods.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Olympians

Lictors were messengers, and bodyguards for ancient Roman heads of state which had assigned 12 each.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor

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Mark 7:15 "Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him.Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean' ."

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html

9 Of his indifference in regard to his diet the following circumstance also is brought in proof. When the host who was entertaining him in Mediolanum, Valerius Leo, served up asparagus dressed with myrrh instead of olive oil, Caesar ate of it without ado, and rebuked his friends when they showed displeasure. 10 "Surely," said he, "it were enough not to eat what you don't like; but he who finds fault with ill-breeding like this is ill-bred himself."

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Mark 6:38 "How many loaves do you have?"

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html

39 1 After this, Antony put in from Brundisium with his forces, and Caesar was emboldened to challenge Pompey to battle. Pompey was well posted and drew ample supplies both from land and sea; while Caesar had no great abundance at first, and afterwards was actually hard pressed for want of provisions. 2 But his soldiers dug up a certain root, mixed it with milk, and ate it.70 Once, too, they made loaves of it, and running up to the enemy's outposts, threw the loaves inside or tossed them to one another, adding by way of comment that as long as the earth produced such roots, they would not stop besieging Pompey. 3 Pompey, however, would not allow either the loaves or these words to reach the main body of his army. For his soldiers were dejected, fearing the ferocity and hardiness of their enemies, who were like wild beasts in their eyes.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark 1:34 and Jesus healed many who had various diseases.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html

41 6 Caesar accomplished most of his march with difficulty, since no one would sell him provisions, and everybody despised him on account of his recent defeat; 7 but after he had taken Gomphi, a city of Thessaly, he not only provided food for his soldiers, but also relieved them of their disease unexpectedly. 8 For they fell in with plenty of wine, and after drinking freely of it, and then revelling and rioting on their march, by means of their drunkenness they drove away and got rid of their trouble, since they brought their bodies into a different habit.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Matthew 27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left.Then he went away and hanged himself.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html

69 12 Subsequently, however, when arrayed against Antony and Caesar (Augustus) at Philippi, in the first battle he conquered the enemy in his front, routed and scattered them, and sacked the camp of Caesar (Augustus); 13 but as he was about to fight the second p609battle, the same phantom visited him again at night, and though it said nothing to him, Brutus understood his fate, and plunged headlong into danger. 14 He did not fall in battle, however, but after the rout retired to a crest of ground, put his naked sword to his breast (while a certain friend, as they say, helped to drive the blow home), and so died.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mark 6:48 He saw the discples strainning at the oars, because the wind was against them. About the fourth watch of the night he went out to them, walking on the lake.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Julius*.html

64 1 At Alexandria, while assaulting a bridge, he was forced by a sudden sally of the enemy to take to a small skiff; when many others threw themselves into the same boat, he plunged into the sea, and after swimming for •two hundred paces, got away to the nearest ship, holding up his left hand all the way, so as not to wet some papers which he was carrying, and dragging his cloak after him with his teeth, to keep the enemy from getting it as a trophy.

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Mark 6:50-:51 "Take courage! It is I. Don't be afraid." Then he climbed into the boat with them, and the wind died down.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html

38 1 At Apollonia, since the force which he had with him was not a match for the enemy and the delay of his troops on the other side caused him perplexity and distress, Caesar conceived the dangerous plan of embarking in a twelve-oared boat, without any one's knowledge, and going over to Brundisium, though the sea was encompassed by such large armaments of the enemy. 2 At night, accordingly, after disguising himself in the dress of a slave, he went on board, threw himself down as one of no account, and kept quiet. 3 While the river Aoüs was carrying the boat down towards the sea, the early morning breeze, which at that time usually made the mouth of the river calm by driving back the waves, was quelled by a strong wind which blew from the sea during the night; 4 the river therefore chafed against the inflow of the sea and the opposition of its billows, and was rough, being beaten back with a great din and violent eddies, so that it was impossible for the master of the boat to force his way along. He therefore ordered the sailors to come about in order to retrace his course. 5 But Caesar, perceiving this, disclosed himself, took the master of the boat by the hand, who was terrified at sight of him, and said: "Come, good man, be bold p537and fear naught; thou carryest Caesar and Caesar's fortune in thy boat."69 6 The sailors forgot the storm, and laying to their oars, tried with all alacrity to force their way down the river. But since it was impossible, after taking much water and running great hazard at the mouth of the river, Caesar very reluctantly suffered the captain to put about. 7 When he came back, his soldiers met him in throngs, finding much fault and sore displeased with him because he did not believe that even with them alone he was able to conquer, but was troubled, and risked his life for the sake of the absent as though distrusting those who were present.

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Mark 2:2 "- We saw his star in the East and have come to worship him."

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Julius*.html

88 1 He died in the fifty-sixth year of his age, and was numbered among the gods, not only by a formal decree, but also in the conviction of the common people. For at the first of the games which his heir Augustus gave in honour of his apotheosis, a comet shone for seven successive days, rising about the eleventh hour,79 and was believed to be the soul of Caesar, who had been taken to heaven; and this is why a star is set upon the crown of his head in his statue.

http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/Latin/Metamorph15.htm

BK XV:745-842 The deification of Julius Caesar

Meanwhile take up Caesar’s spirit from his murdered corpse, and change it into a star, so that the deified Julius may always look down from his high temple on our Capitol and forum.’

In 1997, two scholars at the University of Illinois at Chicago – John T. Ramsey (a classicist) and A. Lewis Licht (a physicist) – published a book.

May 18, 44 BC (China)

July 23–25, 44 BC (Rome)

Absolute magnitude: Caesar's Comet -4.0 Venus -3.8

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Matthew 1:18 - but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Suetonius/12Caesars/Augustus*.html

4 I have read the following story in the books of Asclepias of Mendes entitled Theologumena.138 When Atia had come in the middle of the night to the solemn service of Apollo, she had her litter set down in the temple and fell asleep, while the rest of the matrons also slept. On a sudden a serpent139 glided up to her and shortly went away. When she awoke, she purified herself,140 as if after the embraces of her husband, and at once there appeared on her body a mark in colours like a serpent, and she could never get rid of it; so that presently she ceased p267ever to go to the public baths. In the tenth month after that Augustus was born and was therefore regarded as the son of Apollo. Atia too, before she gave him birth, dreamed that her vitals were borne up to the stars and spread over the whole extent of land and sea, while Octavius (Augustus) dreamed that the sun rose from Atia's womb.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caesarean_section

Caesar was also falsely believed by Pliny the Elder to have been born of a C-section,or Caesarean birth.A fetus not passing naturely thru the vaginal canal,would make the mother still virgin like (It's a stretch,with pun intended).If Caesar was born a C-section,then it would have been considered a miracle his mortal mother survived during that era.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhea_Silvia

Rhea Silvia was the mythical mother of the twins Romulus,and Remus (founders of Rome,and of legend).Rhea being a Vestal Virgin sworn to celibacy was seduced by the God Mars.

Julius as the Pontifex Maximus was in charge of the Cult of Vestal virgins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestal_Virgin

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The three Magi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Triumvirate

The First Triumvirate was the political alliance of Gaius Julius Caesar,Marcus Licinius Crassus,and Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus.Caesar received financial support from the wealthy Crassus,and the alliance (rule of three men) allowed them to dominate Roman politics.

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Luke 2:41-2:47 Parents traveled for a day till they noticed he was missing.After 3 days they found him in the temple courts,sitting among teachers asking questions.

Julius Became head of the family at age 16,do to his fathers (of the same name) death.

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Started ministry at age 30.

Jesus Baptized by John the Baptist.Mark 1:8

Julius At about the age of 30 when reading the history of Alexnder the Great,he is qouted as saying;

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html

11 6 "Do you not think," said he, "it is matter for sorrow that while Alexander,at my age, was already king of so many peoples,I have as yet achieved no brilliant success".

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Known as the truth,light,God's shepard.

Jesus

John 14:6 John 10:1-10:18

JuliusIn 46 BC,Caesar gave himself the title of "Prefect of the Morals", which was an office that was new only in name,as its powers were identical to those of the censors.The censors regulation of public morality is the origin of the modern meaning of the words "censor" and "censorship" (truth.)

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Lives/Caesar*.html

68 1 But when the will of Caesar was opened and it was found that he had given every Roman citizen a considerable gift, (good shepard.)

Deified thru Caesar's Comet (light.)

Is that fuzy enough? tee hee