Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Ott]

We need real physical, archeological proof of this socalled ancient European civilization of before 2000 BCE.

This video explains why nothing significant about our ancient past will be found or reveiled as long as our land is occupied by enemy forces.

Archaeology and propaganda-driven politics.

[The Puzzler]

Does anyone know if "De Frisiorum Antiquitate" (1590) by Suffridus Petrus (written in Latin) was ever translated into Dutch, English or German?

The following is most relevant IMO (and my Latin is not good enough):

Dr. Ottema to L.F. Over de Linden, 19-05-1877:

Concerning the manuscript it is important, specially because Suffridus Petrus, de Scriptoribus Frisiae mentions in his introduction, that Friso left several writings, one of them a travel diary and biography; that he had written them in the Frisian language and with Greek characters, and that his successors wrote just like that, until the times that the Roman script became current in Germania.

He did not mention how or where he had learned about that (as was not his habit), but he can not have sucked that out of his thumb.

Something must have come to his knowledge of Frisian notes, from the times in which the Ovira Lindas wrote, and that travel diary (about the journey from India to Friesland) may be related to Ljudgert's diary.

Informations like this from Suffridus used to be considered as fabulations, but among those fabulations there may turn out to be more truth than was presumed. It is also acknowledged that Suffridus Petrus never lied, but that he would have copied from earlier sources.

Sounds most important indeed.

[Ott]

... "De Frisiorum Antiquitate" (1590) by Suffridus Petrus...

... Suffridus Petrus, de Scriptoribus Frisiae ...

Correction: appearantly these are different works.

The latter is from 1593 and doesn´t seem to be available online.

[NO-ID-EA]

I may have got the wrong end of the stick from the above posts, but if Gestur is looking for Worp van Thebor's ..Vierde boek Kronijk van Friesland...i think this may be a translation into Dutch by G.T.N.Suringar.........it has a voorberigt by J.G.Ottema .

http://archive.org/s...ge/n11/mode/2up

if not , no harm done !

a coincidence the translators name is Suringar , so close to a book i am in the middle of about the alleged tomb of jesus in Srinagar

Congrats to Puzzler.........10,000 insightful posts

Edited October 30, 2013 by NO-ID-EA

[Knul]

I may have got the wrong end of the stick from the above posts, but if Gestur is looking for Worp van Thebor's ..Vierde boek Kronijk van Friesland...i think this may be a translation into Dutch by G.T.N.Suringar.........it has a voorberigt by J.G.Ottema .

Book I-III in Latin, Book IV-V in Dutch. The migration of the Frisians from the Middle East to their homeland is in Book I. The Worp of Thabor (1538) has been published by Dr. J.G. Ottema on behalf of the Frisian Society. s. http://nl.wikipedia....Worp_van_Thabor . Not in English.

Edited October 30, 2013 by Knul

[Knul]

Correction: appearantly these are different works.

The latter is from 1593 and doesn´t seem to be available online.

De scriptoribus Frisiae, decades XVI et semis: in quibus non modo peculiares Frisiae, sed & totius Germaniae communes antiquitates plurimae indicantur, & veterum historicorum ad geographorum loci, hactenus non intellecti, explicantur ... (Google eBoek)

[The Puzzler]

Congrats to Puzzler.........10,000 insightful posts

Yay me! lol Thanks NO-ID-EA!

[Ott]

A correction of the existing translations:

LÉJAR LAJA = lichterlaaie

(not the current meaning of a big fire, but the old meaning: a light, smoldering or glowing flame)

[original 084/14]

THÀT LJUCHT THÀT EROST ALLÉNA GLORADE

SKIL THAN FON LÉJAR LAJA TO.N LOGHA WERTHA

[Ottema and Sandbach, p.117]

Het licht, dat eerst alleen gloorde,

zal dan van lieverlede tot eene vlam worden.

The light which at first only glimmered

shall gradually become a flame.

[Goffe Jensma, 2006]

Het licht dat eerst alleen gloorde,

zal dan van liever lede tot een vlam worden.

[Menno Knul]

Het licht, dat eerst alleen gloorde,

zal dan van lieverlee tot een vlam worden.

Source: etymologiebank.nl/lichterlaaie:

Vnnl. lichte laeye ‘roodgloeiende vlam’ [1599; Kil.],

het herte in een vier scheen lichter-laey te branden

‘het hart leek in vuur en vlam te staan’ [1630; WNT branden],

al voor den dageraet [stont] een derdepart van Londen in lichter laeye [1666; WNT];

nnl. 't vuur ... zette Amsterdam ... in lichtelaeije vlam [1741; WNT].

Het tweede lid is het buiten deze uitdrukking verouderde zn. laeye ‘vlam’, zoals in

die laye die dat hout vut gheft

‘de vlammen die uit het hout slaan’ [1340-60; MNW-R].

Het gaat terug op een Noordzee-Germaanse nevenvorm *leia van mnl. loghe ‘vlam, gloed’ [midden 14e eeuw; MNW],

dat later ook nog voorkwam in in lichte loogh [ca. 1645; WNT].

Nfri. yn ljochte lôge ‘in lichterlaaie’;

nzw. i ljusan låga,

nde. i lys lue ‘id.’.

Bij mnl. laeye horen:

os. logna;

ohd. loug (mhd. louc);

oe. leg (me. leye);

on. leygr;

ofri. loga (nfri. lôge);

on. logi (nzw. låga, nde. lue; ook ontleend als me. lowe, ne. (Schots) low);

al deze woorden betekenen ‘vlam, gloed’.

Mnl. loghe kan zowel uit pgm. *luga- als uit *laugi- zijn ontstaan.

Daarnaast bestonden ook vormen zonder grammatische wisseling:

mnd. lo(he);

mhd. lohe (nhd. Lohe)

Also see: gtb.inl.nl/lichterlaaie

Edited November 1, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

A correction of the existing translations

That is, of the dutch and english translations.

After posting, I saw that the german translation by Wirth (1933) was in fact right:

Das Licht, das zuerst getagt hat,

wird dann von lichter Lohe zu einer wallenden Glut werden.

[Ott]

A sentence that Ottema missed, and thus also lacks in Sandbachs translation.

[original 125/29]

DÉMÉTRIUS WAS NÉI ATHENJA FÁREN.

THA VS KÉNING THÀT VNDERSTANDE LÉD.ER VS TO BEK.

THA WI ANDA HÁVE KÉMON ...

[Ottema/ Sandbach p.173]

Demetrius was naar Athene gevaren.

[Toen onze koning dat verstond (begreep), leidde hij ons terug.]

Toen wij in de haven kwamen, ...

Demetrius had sailed to Athens.

[When our king understood that, he led us back.]

When we came into the harbour, ...

[Knul]

A correction of the existing translations:

LÉJAR LAJA = lichterlaaie

(not the current meaning of a big fire, but the old meaning: a light, smoldering or glowing flame)

[original 084/14]

THÀT LJUCHT THÀT EROST ALLÉNA GLORADE

SKIL THAN FON LÉJAR LAJA TO.N LOGHA WERTHA

[Ottema and Sandbach, p.117]

Het licht, dat eerst alleen gloorde,

zal dan van lieverlede tot eene vlam worden.

The light which at first only glimmered

shall gradually become a flame.

[Goffe Jensma, 2006]

Het licht dat eerst alleen gloorde,

zal dan van liever lede tot een vlam worden.

[Menno Knul]

Het licht, dat eerst alleen gloorde,

zal dan van lieverlee tot een vlam worden.

Source: etymologiebank.nl/lichterlaaie:

Vnnl. lichte laeye ‘roodgloeiende vlam’ [1599; Kil.],

het herte in een vier scheen lichter-laey te branden

‘het hart leek in vuur en vlam te staan’ [1630; WNT branden],

al voor den dageraet [stont] een derdepart van Londen in lichter laeye [1666; WNT];

nnl. 't vuur ... zette Amsterdam ... in lichtelaeije vlam [1741; WNT].

Het tweede lid is het buiten deze uitdrukking verouderde zn. laeye ‘vlam’, zoals in

die laye die dat hout vut gheft

‘de vlammen die uit het hout slaan’ [1340-60; MNW-R].

Het gaat terug op een Noordzee-Germaanse nevenvorm *leia van mnl. loghe ‘vlam, gloed’ [midden 14e eeuw; MNW],

dat later ook nog voorkwam in in lichte loogh [ca. 1645; WNT].

Nfri. yn ljochte lôge ‘in lichterlaaie’;

nzw. i ljusan låga,

nde. i lys lue ‘id.’.

Bij mnl. laeye horen:

os. logna;

ohd. loug (mhd. louc);

oe. leg (me. leye);

on. leygr;

ofri. loga (nfri. lôge);

on. logi (nzw. låga, nde. lue; ook ontleend als me. lowe, ne. (Schots) low);

al deze woorden betekenen ‘vlam, gloed’.

Mnl. loghe kan zowel uit pgm. *luga- als uit *laugi- zijn ontstaan.

Daarnaast bestonden ook vormen zonder grammatische wisseling:

mnd. lo(he);

mhd. lohe (nhd. Lohe)

Also see: gtb.inl.nl/lichterlaaie

You may be right, but I cannot explain yet the word lejar. Anyway, it is a beautiful allitteration: lichte laaie.

[The Puzzler]

You may be right, but I cannot explain yet the word lejar. Anyway, it is a beautiful allitteration: lichte laaie.

'layer' would be my interpretation.

also as in himel-laia = sky/heaven-layer - the top layer

[Ott]

'layer' would be my interpretation.

also as in himel-laia = sky/heaven-layer - the top layer

Puzzler, are you telepathic?

I am working on a new video and this is just the clue I needed.

Thank you!

[Ott]

First try-out, so far only in dutch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-09a975vqu0

[Knul]

First try-out, so far only in dutch.

A skyscraper doesn't scrape either.

Edited November 3, 2013 by Knul

[Ott]

A skyscraper doesn't scrape either.

Right. Even IF the OLB had something like "HIMEL-AJA" => "hemel-aaien" (stroke/ caress heaven), it would not prove that it was ment as a joke and thus be fake.

Just like we do, our prechristian ancestors will have been creative with their language. Why would they not?

The prevailing etymology of Himalaya is from Sanskrit, him (snow) + alaya (dwelling).

This may be right or not. Etymologists often disagree with eachother.

Whatever the right original meaning was, it is possible that people who knew an 'Indogermanic' language in that time, believed it was "Himel-Laya", meaning something like "leading to heaven" or "laying/ lying in heaven".

[Knul]

Right. Even IF the OLB had something like "HIMEL-AJA" => "hemel-aaien" (stroke/ caress heaven), it would not prove that it was ment as a joke and thus be fake.

Just like we do, our prechristian ancestors will have been creative with their language. Why would they not?

The prevailing etymology of Himalaya is from Sanskrit, him (snow) + alaya (dwelling).

This may be right or not. Etymologists often disagree with eachother.

Whatever the right original meaning was, it is possible that people who knew an 'Indogermanic' language in that time, believed it was "Himel-Laya", meaning something like "leading to heaven" or "laying/ lying in heaven".

The term Indogermanic is oldfashioned, replaced by Indo-European.

Origin:

from Sanskrit Himālaya, from hima 'snow' + ālaya 'abode'.

It's your false etymology which causes laughter.

[Ott]

The term Indogermanic is oldfashioned, replaced by Indo-European.

Oops, I forgot. "Germanic" is politically incorrect.

It's your false etymology which causes laughter.

Which do you mean?

LÀJA = liggen = to lie, lay (translation Overwijn, 1941)

or

LÀJA = leiden = to lead (translation Jensma, 2006)

Both are supported by Wiarda (1786) Oldfrisian dictionary.

~

I'm working on an english version of the video, which will be better than the dutch one.

Edited November 4, 2013 by gestur

[The Puzzler]

Seems that Sanskrit is original name but maybe not.

The word HIM/HIMA in Sanskrit equates to HEIMS in Latin - and PIE and therefore Germanic. The word is not really SNOW but to do with WINTER.

The usage of himel may actually equate to the very same Sanskrit word of him/hima - which since both are IE languages should really be steeped in the same etymology. As shown below.

hibernation (n.) 1660s, from Latin hibernationem (nominative hibernatio) "the action of passing the winter," noun of action from past participle stem of hibernare "to winter, pass the winter, occupy winter quarters;" related to hiems "winter," from PIE *gheim- "snow, winter" (cf. Sanskrit heman "in winter," Hittite gimmanza, Greek kheima, Old Church Slavonic zima, Lithuanian žiema "winter").

http://www.etymonlin...hp?l=h&p=17

Hima therefore in Sanskrit may be the same usage as Frisian himel - this imo could mean that Frisian himel was taken into Sanskrit easy enough to become hima.

It's just the concept in Europe became Christianised to Heaven (on the top of the snowy mountains) but himel should really mean exactly the same as in Sanskrit.

That's the him/himel part anyway. If not laia - it could be aia, which is the ancient name of Colchis, where Helios ruled, (a very Northern European God) and King Aeetes lived, as well as where Medea came from in myth - indicating an affiliation with the sky or abode of the sun. More investigation needed on that yet.

Edited November 4, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Working on the above and looking for a word that could possibly mean abode or home that sounds like laia (going out on a limb) I thought of lair. This would be a meaning that may go back to a PIE word for home.

heima-lair - la/lay-ir/air - lai-a - laya

Since laya means apparently abode (place to lie down) it should be able to be found in all IE languages.

If hima+laya means snowy abode in Sanskrit it should also be found in other languages that share etymology.

So, on first glance himel-laia looks like heavenly layer - it might easily mean snowy abode.

lair (n.) Old English leger "bed, couch, grave; act or place of lying down," from Proto-Germanic *legraz (cf. Old Norse legr "grave," also "nuptials" ("a lying down"); Old Frisian leger "situation," Old Saxon legar "bed," Middle Dutch legher "act or place of lying down," Dutch leger "bed, camp," Old High German legar "bed, a lying down," German Lager "bed, lair, camp, storehouse," Gothic ligrs "place of lying"), from PIE *legh- "to lie, lay" (see lie (v.2)). Meaning "animal's den" is from early 15c. http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=lair

The above says Old Frisian leger - situation but in the Frisian dictionary it translates as 'camp'. The g below can be j and also i or y, which it possibly was in more ancient times.

leger 5, legor, leg-er, leg-or, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Lager; ne. camp (N.); Vw.: s. bi-, bī-, gad-er-, hor-n-, -ste-d-e; Hw.: vgl. got. ligrs*, an. legr, ae. leger, anfrk. *legar, as. legar, ahd. legar; Q.: R, W, S; E.: germ. *legra-, *legram, st. N. (a), Lager; s. idg. *legʰ-, V., sich legen, liegen, Pokorny 658; W.: nfries. leger; L.: Hh 63b, Rh 889b; R.: leg-er-es for-d-a, sw. M. (n): nhd. Dammweg; ne. way on a damm; L.: Hh 165

Nothing solid but again, since all IE languages are connected the etymologies should be the same for Sanskrit and Germanic.

Edited November 4, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

The (improved) English-language version of my new OLB-video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGxgT1DgEkA

[Knul]

Oops, I forgot. "Germanic" is politically incorrect.

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Europese_talen .

That's not the problem. The Slavonic languages belong to the groupe too, but nobody would speak of Indo-Slavonic languages or Indo-Roman languages to include Spanish, etc. So Indo-European is preferred, excluding Finn-Ugrian and probably Basque.

[Knul]

Right. Even IF the OLB had something like "HIMEL-AJA" => "hemel-aaien" (stroke/ caress heaven), it would not prove that it was ment as a joke and thus be fake.

Just like we do, our prechristian ancestors will have been creative with their language. Why would they not?

The prevailing etymology of Himalaya is from Sanskrit, him (snow) + alaya (dwelling).

This may be right or not. Etymologists often disagree with eachother.

Whatever the right original meaning was, it is possible that people who knew an 'Indogermanic' language in that time, believed it was "Himel-Laya", meaning something like "leading to heaven" or "laying/ lying in heaven".

I would rather link OLB laja with laaien as you did in: LÉJAR LAJA = lichterlaaie in the meaning of oplaaien, flare up to heavens.

[Knul]

Could you please translate part of a letter by Ottema to Over de Linen, dated May, 31th, 1872:

Gij zult zien dat ik het fantasie runskrift, dat in het H.S. voorkomt, heb laten varen. Dat is een bijvoegsel van veel lateren tijd, en zuiver fictie, dus onecht. Ik ben tot de eenvoudige overtuiging gekomen, dat het standskrift is de groote letter in den cirkel geteekend en het runskrift dat wat men in de gewone schriften gebruikt en waarin het geheele H.S. geschreven is. Men zou het eerste theoretisch en het laatste praktisch schrift kunnen noemen. Met veele vriendelijke groeten aan uwe familie.

[Ott]

part of a letter by Ottema to Over de Linen, dated May, 31th, 1872:

Gij zult zien dat ik het fantasie runskrift, dat in het H.S. voorkomt, heb laten varen.

Dat is een bijvoegsel van veel lateren tijd, en zuiver fictie, dus onecht.

You will see that I have left out the fantasy-'runskrift' from the manuscript.

That was added much later and pure fiction, thus inauthentic.

Ik ben tot de eenvoudige overtuiging gekomen, dat het standskrift is de groote letter

in den cirkel geteekend en het runskrift dat wat men in de gewone schriften gebruikt

en waarin het geheele H.S. geschreven is.

I have come to the simple conviction, that the 'standskrift' is the big letter,

drawn in the circle, and that the runskrift that what was used in common writing

and in which the whole manuscript was written.

Men zou het eerste theoretisch en het laatste praktisch schrift kunnen noemen.

Met veele vriendelijke groeten aan uwe familie.

The first might be called theoretic and the other practical writing.

With many friendly greetings to your family.

~

Answer from Cornelis Over de Linden to this, dated 11 june 1872:

Honorable and very learned Sir!

A request for revision, says W. de L. in Spectator magazine of 21 October 1871 # 42, the same I ask you, and all who reject the so-called 'RUN-SKRIFT' as of younger date.

In your translation I read: "Oh dear, never let the eyes of a monk gaze upon this script, they speak sweet words, but... etc."

From this fear of monks I dare conclude, that they had already captured many of our old manuscripts. I also dare believe dat the Over de Lindens have not been the only ones, who possessed the book of Adela Follistar. When I follow the history of the manuscript, I dare assume that the Romans, the Phoenicians, the Greeks and all Mediterranean peoples learned the letterscript from us.

Not copied from the geometric lines of the Jol, but from less neatly produced Frisian manuscripts.

In the times when I tortured myself trying to read the handwriting, someone said to me that they might be Phoenician letters. So I looked for a book about the Phoenician language and found one with the title: "Paläographische Studien über phönizische und punische Schrift - Herausgegeben von D. Wilhelm Gesenius. Mit 6 lithographirten tafelen. Leipzig 1835."

The letters in that book are very different, but many of them are similar to the STAND and the RUN-SKRIFT as presented in the manuscript. Many or most of the prints of tokens with letters, depict women's heads, that reminded me of the Frisian honorary Mothers. The author says that every Phoenician colony had its own letterscript. But I could not follow him, because he compared the letters with Hebrew ones, which I don't know.

If my notion is right, we have been the lettergivers of all Mediterranean peoples. As the Nordic peoples always have been - and still are - the real sea dogs, the French with all their elevated theories not excluded, they were also most in need of letters and ciphars.

That the monks, who have invented their own letterscript, stifled ours to make it unreadable, lies in their nature. But who knows how many Copies of the book of Adela's Folstar remain here and elsewhere with kings or in Rome. Now that more than a thousand years have passed, they may have introduced the walking script as capitals, because they are similar to our capitals.

If you are so weak as to reject the walking script, out of fear for some barkers, than it is as if you want to duel with the sheath, while passing the sword to them.

For in the manuscript it says: "When Fàsta was Mother of honor, she made the running or walking script out of it. The Witking, that is seaking Godfried... etc." So, if the runscript was added more recently, then the above fragment was also added, and then anything can have been added. So I keep protesting against the mutilation.

[...]

After affable greetings, also to your Niece,

Yours,

C. Over de Linden

I agree with Over de Linden. Ottema was terribly wrong.

Ottema was more learned, but Over de Linden more wise.

A new video about this infamous letter-page is in the making.