Do you do your will? Or God's will?

[Mr Walker]

This is untrue, a secularist can choose not to assume your POV while at the same time be able to see that you have one. In a sense you are offering blue sky, correct?

I am not sure about this because no one can yet see inside another's head.I am not sure that any individual can truly see or understand another's constructed world view. We can read and understand the words they use to describe and explain it, but that doesn't guarantee truly appreciating it.

If we could truly 'see' or appreciate another's POV, we would tend to come to the same view.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Mr Walker

[+Paranoid Android]

You put those things under a category of your choosing. That category was not helping people, nor meeting their needs, but it was helping the lost find god. Now you're trying to say putting those things in that category has nothing to do with what that category is called. I must say that doesn't make all that much sense. So which is it? Do you do those things to meet peoples needs (a you claim now) or to help the lost find god (as you originally cliaimed)? Because there is a difference. One is motivvated by compassion the other is merely grooming them to become another follower.

Why not both? We help people because we are called to be compassionate and help the needy, and if that opens a door to bring them into the folds of the faithful then all's the better, but if not then no harm no foul, we'll still be compassionate regardless of anything else.

[shadowhive]

Why not both? We help people because we are called to be compassionate and help the needy, and if that opens a door to bring them into the folds of the faithful then all's the better, but if not then no harm no foul, we'll still be compassionate regardless of anything else.

It seems more like conditional compassion. Compassion with a motive and that just seems, well wrong.

Let's say I needed help and you came along and you came along. Sure, you helped me, but then you bought god up and how christianity is so great yada yada... I'd be suspicious. I'd think that you hadn't helped out of the 'goodness of your heart' but instead to show that there can be 'good christians' and try to reel me in. The attempt to 'bring me into the folds' would backfire, making me suspicious of the whole thing.

[+Paranoid Android]

It seems more like conditional compassion. Compassion with a motive and that just seems, well wrong.

Let's say I needed help and you came along and you came along. Sure, you helped me, but then you bought god up and how christianity is so great yada yada... I'd be suspicious. I'd think that you hadn't helped out of the 'goodness of your heart' but instead to show that there can be 'good christians' and try to reel me in. The attempt to 'bring me into the folds' would backfire, making me suspicious of the whole thing.

Well if you misunderstood my motives (and it would without doubt by a misunderstanding, at least with me) then I can't help that.

[little_dreamer]

I thought God gave us free will, according to the bible. That means we are always doing our own will. Since we don't know the mind of God, how can we know his will at all, unless he he gives a direct message.

Otherwise we are just guessing at what he wants now, not what he wanted 2000 years ago.

[J. K.]

In general, it seems that you are interested in amassing numbers. Not necessarily got your own church, but to follow your god. (Enlarging the kingdom as you put it.)

Okay, here's the point-of-view test for you. As a Christian, I believe that people who get "saved" will experience God's presence in life now as well as after physical death. A non-Christian will miss out on God's presence both now and after death. Therefore, I tell people what God has done for me in my life in hope that they will want to experience what I have experienced. It's not about numbers; it's about individuals. I am motivated by my compassion for others, not by hope of numerical gain. Now, can you understand evangelism from my point-of-view?

[White Crane Feather]

Let's go back in the time I grew up in a church. I won't say which one, but like many churches they say don't chase desires or money. And just go spread the word of God, and that is the only purpose. Supposely that is doing the will of God or try to convert as many people to Christian as you can right?

I was not very happy there. The way I saw it the church just got more rich and powerful. And I was slavery away doing what I didn't want to do.

Now all the Jesus and end of the world stuff could be true. It could be a clever plot to just control people.

Either way I am now much more happier now doing magick.

Mostly I am one with nature, and I meditate and feel God in my soul.I

don't think i need a church or leader to feel close to nature and creation.

I also now do what makes me happy and am now finally reaching my dreams and will.

But according to the church I am evil. They will say I worship devils and am pure evil.

I also don't follow any offcial group or anything.

I am still somewhat affilated with the church.

However I do things my way and it has been working out.

I am happy doing as I wish and getting what I want as long as I dont hurt others

or commit crimes etc.

I don't see the harm. Oh but those peskey church control systems.

If you watch harry potter oh no that's evil!

You are going to hell. That is how they see it.

For the first time I feel happy and free.

and now I am not a satanist. I see that as just a reverse of Christianty...

which tries to hard to rebel and is just another set of rules and control.

I suppose I wrote my own philisophy and it's working out for me.

I suppose as long as I am happy and doing well it's what counts in the end right?

But what about all of you? Do you do the will of the church or God as they say?

Or your own will?

The christian church does not define god for the rest of us.

I Believe I do both.

Edited November 22, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[White Crane Feather]

Okay, here's the point-of-view test for you. As a Christian, I believe that people who get "saved" will experience God's presence in life now as well as after physical death. A non-Christian will miss out on God's presence both now and after death. Therefore, I tell people what God has done for me in my life in hope that they will want to experience what I have experienced. It's not about numbers; it's about individuals. I am motivated by my compassion for others, not by hope of numerical gain. Now, can you understand evangelism from my point-of-view?

I'm not Christian. And god certainly is apart of my life.

[shadowhive]

Okay, here's the point-of-view test for you. As a Christian, I believe that people who get "saved" will experience God's presence in life now as well as after physical death. A non-Christian will miss out on God's presence both now and after death. Therefore, I tell people what God has done for me in my life in hope that they will want to experience what I have experienced. It's not about numbers; it's about individuals. I am motivated by my compassion for others, not by hope of numerical gain. Now, can you understand evangelism from my point-of-view?

That's not the first time I've heard that line, or similar. It still sounds like just wnting to make more people follow your god. The motivation is 'compassion' but it still seems very wrong.

I look at your god in the bible. He doesn't sound terribly compassionate. You know, with the smiting, the sending non-belivers to hell andall. He just wants more followers luring them in with promises of making them feel more comfortable, or if that fails 'saving' them from hell (a place where he sends people so it sounds smore like a hero complex). Outside the bible god seems content with 'helping' believers, while letting everyone else suffer out of... what? Your god only strikes me s an entity that's compassionate when it suits him, as he's quite content to let people suffer both in this world and the next.

You're motivated, like many before you to get more people to follow your god becuse you think your god is wonderful. That motivtion has led to terrible things throughout history, right to this day. It's just masked as compassion.

[Ogbin]

White Crane Feather,

The God of the Bible no one knows without Christ in their lifes. This is the point of the NT. We must know Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior in order to be accepted of God. John 3:18 says if we don't Believe in Jesus we are condemned and in 1John 4:3 if we do not confess that Jesus is the Son of God and that he came in the flesh we are liars and have the spirit of anti-christ. I condemn no one, but the NT is as plain as day, that we must know Jesus Christ and follow his commandments in order to know and please God.

[shadowhive]

Well if you misunderstood my motives (and it would without doubt by a misunderstanding, at least with me) then I can't help that.

You do good not just for it's own sake, not even just to help others, but with the secondary motivation of getting more followers. Of course you consider this a good thing, but why?

[shadowhive]

White Crane Feather,

The God of the Bible no one knows without Christ in their lifes. This is the point of the NT. We must know Jesus Christ as our Lord and savior in order to be accepted of God. John 3:18 says if we don't Believe in Jesus we are condemned and in 1John 4:3 if we do not confess that Jesus is the Son of God and that he came in the flesh we are liars and have the spirit of anti-christ. I condemn no one, but the NT is as plain as day, that we must know Jesus Christ and follow his commandments in order to know and please God.

It's odd how believers pratle on about condemning people then add 'I codemn no one' or similar right after isn't it?

[J. K.]

That's not the first time I've heard that line, or similar. It still sounds like just wnting to make more people follow your god. The motivation is 'compassion' but it still seems very wrong.

I look at your god in the bible. He doesn't sound terribly compassionate. You know, with the smiting, the sending non-belivers to hell andall. He just wants more followers luring them in with promises of making them feel more comfortable, or if that fails 'saving' them from hell (a place where he sends people so it sounds smore like a hero complex). Outside the bible god seems content with 'helping' believers, while letting everyone else suffer out of... what? Your god only strikes me s an entity that's compassionate when it suits him, as he's quite content to let people suffer both in this world and the next.

You're motivated, like many before you to get more people to follow your god becuse you think your god is wonderful. That motivtion has led to terrible things throughout history, right to this day. It's just masked as compassion.

Your first statement indicates that you can't accept that my motivation is compassion, so you are still not perceiving my point-of-view.

Your final statement indicates that you are not aware that there is no one denomination that represents the entirety of Christianity.

Very well, then. You have your message and motivation, and I have mine.

[Ogbin]

Shadowhive,

It is not for us to judge one another.

Romans 2:1-3 "Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself, for thou that judgest doeth the same things. But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things. And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them that do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?"

I condemn no one because I judge no one.

[Mr Walker]

I thought God gave us free will, according to the bible. That means we are always doing our own will. Since we don't know the mind of God, how can we know his will at all, unless he he gives a direct message.

Otherwise we are just guessing at what he wants now, not what he wanted 2000 years ago.

You are correct in part, but also we have modern knowledge and understandings with which to comprehend those old words. Also, god's nature and desire for us is not likely to change in a mere few thousand years. I use both ancient wisdoms and the direct teaching of god to live my life. All I can say is that it works exceptionally well for me.

[Mr Walker]

It's odd how believers pratle on about condemning people then add 'I codemn no one' or similar right after isn't it?

This is an ancient dichotomy not restricted to christian's I can condemn peoples behaviour as destructive without condemning the person.Heck my parents taught me that when I was about 2 years old. They loved me but condemned certain behaviours of mine Society and individuals cant simply allow certain behaviours to exist. Thus they create laws and consequences for those behaviours. If you are found guilty of those behaviours you are condemned for them, but that doesn't mean that as an individual human you are judged. Even in Christianity a person condemned to death for a crime may not be condemned as a soul or as a person. On the other hand we are responsible for our behaviours and whether we like it or not must accept that repsonsibilty in our hearts and minds. My harshest judge of my behaviour is always my self because I know what's going on in my heart and mind, and the reasons why I act as I do.