Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Knul]

I think the verb TOHRÉDA belongs to this list:

[065/06] THAT.ET VR SIN RÉDE NAVT MOCHT TO WÁKANE ==> that it could not watch over its reason/ sense/ ratio

I would feel ashamed to publish such a quasy learned etymology !

[NO-ID-EA]

A general note, Dr. No, can you please try to be more precise next time?

Layamon's Brut (ca. 1190 - 1215), also known as The Chronicle of Britain

The first few centuries of christianity are indeed very interesting (as is your idea about 'gentisle').

Do you know the lectures from Edmund Marriage?

I think you will like them.

[media=]

[/media]

Thanks Gestur .. i will certainl enjoy watching that later

[Ott]

Egypt wasn't called "Egypt", 2600 years ago

It does not say so in the text you quoted.

If the Greeks said 'Aígyptos', there is no reason why the Fryans could not have said 'Egiptaland'.

[Knul]

It does not say so in the text you quoted.

If the Greeks said 'Aígyptos', there is no reason why the Fryans could not have said 'Egiptaland'.

First check the Statenbijbel with hundreds of Egyptelands.

http://www.statenvertaling.net/concordantie/e/2390-1.html

[Ott]

I think the verb TOHRÉDA belongs to this list:

[065/06] THAT.ET VR SIN RÉDE NAVT MOCHT TO WÁKANE ==> that it could not watch over its reason/ sense/ ratio

I would feel ashamed to publish such a quasy learned etymology !

You misquoted me.

In red, here's what was left out:

I think the verb TOHRÉDA belongs to this list:

[059/19] MITH A FINNESTE WÉRUM TO HRÉDA ==> prepare/ load with the finest goods

[...]

And finally RÉDE = ratio, reason, sense, mind, intelligence

[...]

[065/06] THAT.ET VR SIN RÉDE NAVT MOCHT TO WÁKANE ==> that it could not watch over its reason/ sense/ ratio

You are not ashamed of accusing Over de Linden and Staderman - men who can not defend themselves - of serious lies and fraud, without having evidence?

[Ott]

First check the Statenbijbel with hundreds of Egyptelands.

So you think the Icelanders got their name for the land from our Statenbijbel?

[NO-ID-EA]

OK, good, so the Icelanders called it "Egi/ypteland" centuries earlier.

But most if not all of the Eddas were written by Icelandic monks or those heavlily influenced by Christianity and the Bible.

==

Your alternative etymologies for 'prester' don't seem right.

Interesting that you say that as Charles Vallancey say exactly the opposite , he says the vast majority of the Eddas were written in Norway ,Denmark etc but that Iceland was populated by the British (Landnamabok)So was more protected from destruction. and it is just that when the persecutions of Pagan religions started , many of the Eddas were taken to Iceland for safekeeping, and many were copied......but obviously the other countries had their books destroyed..which has now made it seem as though the majority came from/or were written in Iceland.( whether that is the truth of it.. who knows ?)

In Collectanea de rebus hibernicas(1804) ..Vallencey quotes an earlier book by Astle , who says in Ireland there are examples of Ogam MS written in the form of a dart (nail)called in french clue , ie cuneiform , and he says the fact of which the ms are still extant is sufficient proof, although the power of these letters is now lost , but the fact that there were shown to be 17 alphabets ( he means letters ) in the Irish Ogham is also adequate proof that either the Irish were Phoenician , had interbred with Phoenicians , or at the very least had their Alphabet from them.

Ogam Vallencey says means either mysterious or secret in both Irish , and Sanskrit . Astle included in his book , says Vallacey an interesting paragraph :-

OGAM VIRD IN TORD BIS FORNA FEELAIB IN AIPGIT...................aipgit later written ajpgitir , and says another form of aibgitir , and this is a form of the word

ogam ujrd jn tord bjs forma feelajb jn ajpgjt......................alphabet, and is also used as a.b.g.ittir.......note in Chaldean gittir signifies a letter of the alphabet.

ogam word in ???? was formed firstly in Egypt.....................he also says that another form of aipgitir was with a movement of the order of letters aigiptir (egypt)

Edited November 19, 2013 by NO-ID-EA

[Van Gorp]

You misquoted me.

In red, here's what was left out:

You are not ashamed of accusing Over de Linden and Staderman - men who can not defend themselves - of serious lies and fraud, without having evidence?

Very interesting Gestur.

There seem to be abundant variaties on the theme re-en.

Not everyone is ready to see that :-) wak!

[Knul]

So you think the Icelanders got their name for the land from our Statenbijbel?

Certainly not, but that is not the question.

[Knul]

You misquoted me.

In red, here's what was left out:

You are not ashamed of accusing Over de Linden and Staderman - men who can not defend themselves - of serious lies and fraud, without having evidence?

Just call it a cold case investigation. If you want to defend Over de Linden and Stadermann, please give us evidence, that they did not lie and fraud. Why did Over de Linden hide the name of Stadermann from Verwijs, Ottema and his grandson ? Why did he come out with the O.L.B. after the dead of Stadermann ? Why did het omit the trip to Enkhuizen in 1845 in his story for his grandson, which has been confirmed by his son-in-law ? Why owned Over de Linden learned boks, which he (according to his son and Ottema) could not read and understand ? A grandson of Stadermann wrote to the Frisian Society, that these boooks belonged to his grandfather. Evidence enough, I would say.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Knul

[Ott]

Certainly not, but that is not the question.

Then what is?

If the Statenbible had "Egipteland", then that was how it was known back then.

Who knows since when the Dutch and before them the Oldfrisians have used that name?

The oldest known source of a word only tells how old a word is at least, not at most.

This misunderstanding keeps coming back in this thread.

[Ott]

If you want to defend Over de Linden and Stadermann, please give us evidence, that they did not lie and fraud.

A suspect is to be considered innocent, until proven guilty.

The burden of proof lies with the accuser, not with the defender.

Why did Over de Linden hide the name of Stadermann from Verwijs, Ottema and his grandson ?

"Hide"? He just did not mention te name, probably because it was irrelevant.

How would this proof he lied?

Why did he come out with the O.L.B. after the dead of Stadermann ?

Why would that be suspect?

Why did het omit the trip to Enkhuizen in 1845 in his story for his grandson, which has been confirmed by his son-in-law ?

Perhaps he thought it was irrelevant, because the trip had no succes.

As I have argued before, I suspect OdL of a small lie: that he took the OLB under pressure from his niece in 1848, or maybe even without her consent (as her son Hendrik Kofman claimed later), instead of receiving it from his aunt by surprise. But I see no reason to doubt that he had the OLB in his possession since 1848 and that it had been with his family in Enkhuizen before that. Many witnesses confirm this. You think they all lied?

Why owned Over de Linden learned boks, which he (according to his son and Ottema) could not read and understand ?

He had many interests and wrote much himself. He was self-taught and tried to make sense of the manuscript through study.

What is the source for your claim that Ottema and his son would have thought he could not read or understand those books?

A grandson of Stadermann wrote to the Frisian Society, that these boooks belonged to his grandfather. Evidence enough, I would say.

So OdL got some books from book-trader Stadermann.

How does this prove anything at all?

Is the best 'evidence' you have?

Using your method, I can prove that Donald Duck and Mickey Mouse wrote the OLB.

[Knul]

Perhaps he thought it was irrelevant, because the trip had no succes.

As I have argued before, I suspect OdL of a small lie: that he took the OLB under pressure from his niece in 1848, or maybe even without her consent (as her son Hendrik Kofman claimed later), instead of receiving it from his aunt by surprise. But I see no reason to doubt that he had the OLB in his possession since 1848 and that it had been with his family in Enkhuizen before that. Many witnesses confirm this. You think they all lied?

He had many interests and wrote much himself. He was self-taught and tried to make sense of the manuscript through study.

What is the source for your claim that Ottema and his son would have thought he could not read or understand those books?

I don't think that they lied. Cornelis over de Linden himself kept silent about the trip of 1845 and Stadermann.

Just read the letters of Ottema and L.F. over de Linden.

I wonder, if you have ever read Ottema's De Koninklijke Akademie and the O.L.B.

[Ott]

Cornelis over de Linden himself kept silent about the trip of 1845 and Stadermann.

Cornelis' statements of how he had received the manuscript in 1848 were inconsistent and in confict with other witness accounts.

Cornelis basically claimed that his aunt had given it to him by surprise:

- Letter to Eelco Verwijs (7 Oct. 1867):

Some 18 years ago, visiting my family, my aunt gave me two manuscripts, that she had not been allowed to give me when her husband was still alive, although my grandfather had demanded it.

- In a diary (1873 or 1874):

Once when I visited my mother and some other family, I was at my aunts at a moment when her second husband Koop Meylhof was not at home. I think it was in the year 1847 or -8. We were in the garden that I loved because I had such good memories of when my grandparents lived there. A pear tree carried three ripe pears that I asked for, saying that since grandfathers death, I had not tasted fruits from this garden. She agreed and said: "Now that you mention your grandfather, I have something for you that I had to keep until you had grown up. Hendrik..." (Hendrik Reuvers was the name of her first husband) "... didn't want me to give it to you, but Koops doesn't know about it, therefore I should give it to you now." I expected something like a watch, but she came back with an old book. Then she said: "This is, as grandfather said, an old Frisian manuscript from our ancestors. He didn't want to give it to your father, because he wasn't interested, therefore I had to keep it for you."

I put it under my coat and could hardly hide my disappointment. "You don't seem very happy with it", she said. "But if you knew how much your grandfather loved it, you'd be more happy. I only heard about it, but I believe they are Frisian papers of nobility. Etc." To please her, I showed some more gratitude, and promised that I would learn to read it and that I would tell her what it said. (She died in the year 49. So if she would not had given it to me, Koops would have laid his hands upon it - or one of her children, that are named Reuvers.) One might as well have given me Hebrew, I couldn't read any of it and when I told my wife that they were papers of nobility, she thought it was a joke.

That he would have received the OLB by surprise is in conflict with this:

According to Beckering Vinkers ("Wie heeft...?"), Over de Linden's stepson-in-law Jacob Munnik told in 1876, that in 1845 he went with Cornelis and the book-binder Ernst Stadermann from Den Helder, to Over de Linden's mother in Enkhuizen, where he [Cornelis], appearantly without succes, tried to convince her to give him an old family-book.

That he would have received it from his aunt Aafje is in conflict with this:

Hajo Last in Enkhuizer Courant (9 jan. 1934):

"Once when he [Cornelis] was visiting in Enkhuizen, he came to his cousin, and that was a widow Kofman [the daughter of aunt Aafje! If this was in the 1840-s, she was not yet a widow], in the Rietdijk, now called the Vijzelstraat [...]. She said to him: 'Kees, I have some old manuscripts here, from your grandfather, and he always said: "Those are meant to be passed on to my heir ['stamhouder']".' That's how his cousin gave them to him; I still remember him saying it, sitting at our table."

That it was given to him voluntarily is in conflict with this statement from the same witness (Hajo Last in E.C. of 9 jan. 1934):

In this article, Last claims that Hein (Hendrik) Kofman, a son of Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers (daughter of aunt Aafje) and colleague of Last had told him: “Cousin Over de Linden stole it from my mother”.

(Note that Hajo Last reported the death of Anna Goemaat (in 1876), the mother of Cornelis. So he must have known the family well.)

So at least someone has been lying here.

It makes most sense to me that Cornelis lied about how he had received it (not that he had obtained it in 1848), simply because he had taken it by force or even without permission. Consider the fact that (he said) he initially believed it contained information about a family treasure.

I wonder, if you have ever read Ottema's De Koninklijke Akademie and the O.L.B.

Perhaps, I don't remember and don't have it at hand.

If it contains anything important, I will consider translating it for the forum.

Please do post the relevant parts or a link if it is available online.

Edited November 20, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

Knul, I thought I copied and posted that letter from Hajo Last in the Enkhuizer Courant of 9 jan. 1934, but I can't find it back.

I remember having read it though, in the Westfrisian Archives, in Hoorn.

Do you have it?

[Knul]

If it contains anything important, I will consider translating it for the forum.

Please do post the relevant parts or a link if it is available online.

I have put the brochure on my website, including the letter of L.F. over de Linden to the Royal Academy of Sciences. s. http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbcorrespondentie1874-1879.html . Here you find the next story about the visit 1845. They did not go, but aunt Aafje would send the Frisian book by post. You may decide which parts would be interesting for translation. Just a general note: the Academy of Sciences did not want to investigate the O.L.B., but individual members of the Department of Literature and History condemned the O.L.B. as mystification. The letter of L.F. over de Linden was more to the point than the brochure of Ottema.

[NO-ID-EA]

Just me thinking out loud again.....

Does the way certain letters can be exchanged with others , make you think of Egypt or Aigipt as being a Gift , being that P can be F , it just makes me wonder if Kemet or whatever it was called at that time , is the land that the bible states was given to the cainites , and they were promised it by either .......(A)gypt , a gift from a God , or (E)gypt.. a gift from a goddess........

[Ott]

Brand new discovery:

ANFANGA = αναφαινω

In the following eleven fragments, I have translated ANFANG(A) with (to) start, but as I will reveal below, more poetic translations are possible.

1 [006/13]

WR.ALDA [...] MAKADE T.ANFANG

Wralda [...] made the start

2 [014/24]

ALLE THINGA THÉR MÀN ANFANGJA WIL

All things that one will start

3 [045/10]

THÀT FORMA SINNE BILD WR.ALDA.S.

AK FON T.ANFANG JEFTHA T.BIJIN WÉRUT TID KÉM

The first symbol of Wralda,

also of the start or beginning from which time/tide came

4 [067/07]

NV KÉM.T.ANFANG FON THÀT ENDE

Now the start of the end came

5 [084/07]

THÉRNÉI SKIL THET MORNERÁD WITHER ANFANGA TO GLORA

Thereafter, morningred shall again start to glimmer

6 [098/20]

FONUT WR.ALDA KVMTH.T.ANFANG ÀNDET ENDE

Out of Wralda comes the start and the end

7 [103/07]

BY T.ANFANG MIN ÀND BLÁT

At the start small and naked

8 [115/22]

BY T.ANFANG THERE ARNE MONATH

At the start of the Arnemonth

9 [141/11]

THA ÉWA THÉR WR.ALDA BI.T.ANFANG IN VS MOD LÉIDE

The laws that Wralda at the start laid in our mood

10 [141/19]

ALTHAM SKIL ANFANGA

FJUWER THUSAND JÉR NÉI ÁT.LAND SVNKEN IS

All that shall start

fourthousand years after Átland was sunken

11 [204/28]

BI T.ANFANG WÉRON HJA REINTJA NÍDICH

At the start they were jealous (needy) of Reintja

T.ANFANG (noun) - 1,3,4,6,7,8,9,11

ANFANGA (verb) - 5,10

ANFANGJA (verb) - 2

===

Noun:

anfang - german

aanvang - dutch

anevanc, aenvanc, anvanc - middledutch

Verb:

anfangen - german

aanvangen - dutch

anevaen, aanvanghen - middledutch

anafáhan - oldgerman

onfá - oldfrisian

oanfange - frisian

onfón - oldenglish

The online Dutch etymology bible does not make the link yet with the Oldreek word αναφαινω (anafaino).

According to my dictionary, this can mean:

ignite, let shine, bring to light, reveal, inform

(laten lichten, laten schitteren, aan 't licht brengen, openbaren, meedelen)

That a link is evident is even more obvious from this Greek-German dictionary (1786):

establish, explain, demonstrate, reveal, come to the fore, begin

(aufstellen, darlegen, zur Schau bringen, bekant machen, zum Vorschein kommen, beginnen)

It was here and there assumed that "templum quod Tanfanae vocabant" from Tacitus Annales, referred to a goddess-temple, but the text really does not say so (see below).

Therefore, it may very well have been a temple where T.ANFANG was celebrated.

===

Tacitus (Annales I, 50-51)

Laeti neque procul Germani agitabant,

dum iustitio ob amissum Augustum,

post discordiis attinemur.

There was exultation among the Germans, not far off,

as long as we were detained by the public mourning for the loss of Augustus,

and then by our dissensions.

at Romanus agmine propero silvam Caesiam

limitemque a Tiberio coeptum scindit,

castra in limite locat,

frontem ac tergum vallo,

latera concaedibus munitus.

But the Roman general in a forced march, cut through the Caesian forest

and the barrier which had been begun by Tiberius,

and pitched his camp on this barrier,

his front and rear being defended by intrenchments,

his flanks by timber barricades.

inde saltus obscuros permeat

consultatque ex duobus itineribus breve et solitum sequatur

an inpeditius et intemptatum

eoque hostibus in cautum.

He then penetrated some forest passes but little known,

and, as there were two routes, he deliberated whether he should pursue the short and ordinary route,

or that which was more difficult unexplored,

and consequently unguarded by the enemy.

delecta longiore via cetera adcelerantur:

etenim attulerant exploratores festam eam Germanis noctem

ac sollemnibus epulis ludicram.

He chose the longer way, and hurried on every remaining preparation,

for his scouts had brought word that among the Germans it was a night of festivity,

with games, and one of their grand banquets.

Caecina cum expeditis cohortibus praeire

et obstantia silvarum amoliri iubetur:

legiones modico intervallo sequuntur.

Caecina had orders to advance with some light cohorts,

and to clear away any obstructions from the woods.

The legions followed at a moderate interval.

iuvit nox sideribus inlustris,

ventumque ad vicos Marsorum

et circumdatae stationes stratis etiam tum per cubilia propterque mensas,

nullo metu,

non antepositi vigiliis:

They were helped by a night of bright starlight,

reached the villages of the Marsi,

and threw their pickets round the enemy, who even then were stretched on beds or at their tables,

without the least fear,

or any sentries before their camp, so complete was their carelessness and disorder;

adeo cuncta incuria disiecta erant neque belli timor,

ac ne pax quidem nisi languida et soluta inter temulentos.

and of war indeed there was no apprehension.

Peace it certainly was not- merely the languid and heedless ease of half-intoxicated people.

Caesar avidas legiones quo latior populatio foret quattuor in cuneos dispertit;

quinquaginta milium spatium ferro flammisque pervastat.

Caesar, to spread devastation widely, divided his eager legions into four columns,

and ravaged a space of fifty miles with fire and sword.

non sexus, non aetas miserationem attulit:

profana simul et sacra et celeberrimum illis gentibus templum quod Tanfanae vocabant

solo aequantur.

Neither sex nor age moved his compassion.

Everything, sacred or profane, the temple too of Tamfana, as they called it, the special resort of all those tribes,

was levelled to the ground.

sine vulnere milites, qui semisomnos,

inermos aut palantis ceciderant.

There was not a wound among our soldiers, who cut down a half-asleep,

an unarmed, or a straggling foe.

excivit ea caedes Bructeros, Tubantes, Vsipetes,

saltusque, per quos exercitui regressus, insedere.

The Bructeri, Tubantes, and Usipetes, were roused by this slaughter,

and they beset the forest passes through which the army had to return.

Sources: Latin, English

[Ott]

I have put the brochure on my website

...

the Academy of Sciences did not want to investigate the O.L.B., but individual members of the Department of Literature and History condemned the O.L.B. as mystification.

Thanks for all the work you did so far, creating a great source of information.

Yes, it shows the utter arrogance and ignorance of dutch academia.

It is not surprising why they were not happy with the OLB, as they were members of the powerful elite back then, and nowadays it's their lapdogs. (I can tell because I was one of them.)

Just one relevant quote from OLB to remind you:

[137/08] Jes.us

ALOMME HWÉR ER FORTH HINNE TÁCH LÉRDI AN THA LJUDA

THÀT HJA NÉNE RIKA NER PRESTERA TOLÉTA MOSTON

[Ott]

... the Oldreek word αναφαινω (anafaino).

According to my dictionary...

I forgot to mention that at αμφαινω (amfaino) it says: see αναφαινω.

[Knul]

Brand new discovery:

ANFANGA = αναφαινω

Sources: Latin, English

t anfang are two words (het aanvang - het begin). The original name of Tanfana was Tamfana, which ha no relation with αναφαινω or αμφαινω . s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanfana , in Tanfana, Tamfana -t- belongs to the stem.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Knul

[Ott]

The original name of Tanfana was Tamfana

Check the Tacitus fragment I added.

It is the only old source for the name.

He would not have known the exact spelling and they may have been spelling variety back then anyway.

I also showed that to the Greeks αμφαινω = αναφαινω.

[Knul]

Check the Tacitus fragment I added.

It is the only old source for the name.

He would not have known the exact spelling and they may have been spelling variety back then anyway.

I also showed that to the Greeks αμφαινω = αναφαινω.

Check the Tacitus fragment I added.

It is the only old source for the name.

He would not have known the exact spelling and they may have been spelling variety back then anyway.

I also showed that to the Greeks αμφαινω = αναφαινω.

Just read my comment better.

[Knul]

Thanks for all the work you did so far, creating a great source of information.

Yes, it shows the utter arrogance and ignorance of dutch academia.

It is not surprising why they were not happy with the OLB, as they were members of the powerful elite back then, and nowadays it's their lapdogs. (I can tell because I was one of them.)

Just one relevant quote from OLB to remind you:

[137/08] Jes.us

ALOMME HWÉR ER FORTH HINNE TÁCH LÉRDI AN THA LJUDA

THÀT HJA NÉNE RIKA NER PRESTERA TOLÉTA MOSTON

I just collect texts and information. I would be grateful, if you would send me additional information, e.g. texts of articles in the Leeuwarder Courant, letters by COdL, etc. in Dutch language. Besides I am working on a grammar and vocabulary.

[Ott]

Just read my comment better.

It doesn't make sense.