Near-death experiences are 'electrical surge

[baro67]

the simple electrical activity does not explain the fact that the subject just returned describe in many cases with impressive details what happened around him during his near-death State ... This is impossible unless a part of him was not present and had seen ...

[spacelizard667]

http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-23672150

As i've also said, it's a knee jerk reaction to the extreme occurance of life turning into death.

No, both reports mentioned in the opening of this topic [one of them in the opening quote] are quite inaccurate. Even if a person dies instantly they still go through all of the flashbacks of their own life. That is the after-physical-death process of actual termination of all their physical processes and survivors of Near Death Experiences (hence, NDEs) have always known and said that.

[psyche101]

This "electrical hypothesis" has been the generally accepted hypothesis for the last few decades. However, there's really no evidence for this, no surge of electrical activity at the time of death has ever been documented that definitively coincides with a near death experience. At this time there exists no concrete (ie, scientifically supported) explanation for the so-called near death experiences.

A very interesting case is that of Dr. Eben Alexander: http://www.nytimes.c...eaven.html?_r=0

Dr. Alexander's own near death expereince resulted in him writing a book and making a complete 360...and for a Harvard medical School, Mass. General Hospital, Brigham and Women' s Hospital l trained neurologist that's really something. Dr. Alexander is what one would call a "expert witness" .

http://en.wikipedia....exander_(author)

That is really interesting, I had not heard of him before. It amazes me that a man of science would dabble in the supernatural, however, when he says:

Still, he said, he has a trump card: Having trained at Duke University and taught and practiced as a surgeon at Harvard, he knows brain science as well as anyone. And science, he said, cannot explain his experience.

Does not this from the link fulfill that requirement?

We identified a transient surge of synchronous gamma oscillations that occurred within the first 30 s after cardiac arrest and preceded isoelectric electroencephalogram. Gamma oscillations during cardiac arrest were global and highly coherent; moreover, this frequency band exhibited a striking increase in anterior–posterior-directed connectivity and tight phase-coupling to both theta and alpha waves. High-frequency neurophysiological activity in the near-death state exceeded levels found during the conscious waking state. These data demonstrate that the mammalian brain can, albeit paradoxically, generate neural correlates of heightened conscious processing at near-death.

[psyche101]

How do you give a spiritual explanation of this to an athiest? Someone who doesn't want to believe will make up every excuse not to. Those who want to believe or understand will seek the answers for themselves.

When my Father passed away, I was more religious, and did look into afterlife phenomena, but found nothing. There was no excuse, what I wanted was to speak to my father again more than anything, but the only experiences I have seen seem to ones people convince themselves of. Afterlife claims seem to stem from the Egyptian concepts, it is one of the oldest belief systems that we have, inspired by even more ancient tales of Gilgamesh who sought the secret of immortal life and was told to give it up because the gods had ordained that human life is only temporary.

It seems to me we worked out long ago that we just die, but nobody wanted to believe it, so we made up several versions of the afterlife tailored to suit individual tastes. It makes dying easier I would guess. And the very fact that we all succumb to that fate.

[psyche101]

the simple electrical activity does not explain the fact that the subject just returned describe in many cases with impressive details what happened around him during his near-death State ... This is impossible unless a part of him was not present and had seen ...

Don't people dream like that all the time?

[psyche101]

I just have to point out that DMT is not proven to be in the brain it is just a theory.

http://forteansquirr...scientists-say/

http://www.erowid.or..._article2.shtml

So everyone stop watching the spirit molecule lol

From your link:

Is DMT produced in our brain? While some cling to evidence that suggests it is, there is also very good reason to be skeptical. Putting together my own minimal review of the available literature, as well as the direct responses from two scientists with a level of expertise in the field of neuroscience, it leads me to believe that the evidence is limited and, therefore, the probability not so great.

One thing we can see is DMT does definitely exist and is produced in the body where it putatively functions as a trace amine, perhaps DMT isn't produced in the Pineal Gland, but it is synthesised somewhere within the human body. It is the link from DMT to the spiritual experiences which has been put in question, and I imagine that is a very hard thing to prove. So it is suspect only by ignorance, that does not mean it is definitely not a catalyst.

Can anyone say the same for the afterlife? Has any one bit been proven to exist? Why is it a better explanation?

[coolguy]

I wonder if doctors could copy this for people to try it,

[Frank Merton]

I don't have any idea what happens when we die except that by definition most of the ideas have to be wrong. I am hopeful there is something, but, then, again, if there isn't, I won't know it.

Four things. First, it seems likely our existence is in a simulation. That offers some promise, assuming the simulators are aware of us, that when we die we reach down and unplug the machine we were attached to.

Second, I have had personal experiences that make me wonder about ghosts. I certainly hope that is not our fate.

Third, it seems to me the processes we call mind often demonstrate an independence of the physical brain and body. Whether there is enough independence and how this could have evolved are huge problems. Sentience and consciousness do not seem to be physical in nature.

Finally, it occurs to me that in the distant future it may become possible for society to bring back to life those who have died -- through now unimaginable technologies. I have to imagine that if this is possible it will be done. Then there will be the question of whether or not such a resurrected person "really" is me.

[psyche101]

I don't have any idea what happens when we die except that by definition most of the ideas have to be wrong. I am hopeful there is something, but, then, again, if there isn't, I won't know it.

Indeed, however, if you feel there is an afterlife, many religions insist it is for people only, and you wont be reunited with your pet dog when you get to heaven.

What is the general consensus on this? Does not seem like a pleasant afterlife if parts of your physical existence are stripped back from you? That is what makes what I consider "The Spirit" of a person.

Four things. First, it seems likely our existence is in a simulation. That offers some promise, assuming the simulators are aware of us, that when we die we reach down and unplug the machine we were attached to.

If we were part of a simulation, would it not be impossible for us to know that, therefore the only reason to believe in a simulation is belief in a simulation?

Second, I have had personal experiences that make me wonder about ghosts. I certainly hope that is not our fate.

I cannot comment on your personal experience, but mine tell me no such thing exists. If such does exist, why are people who want to visit this realm denied, and mostly people of dubious character offered entrance or insight by default? Like the Sylvia Browns of the world? Or that jumped up upstart braggit, Allison DuBois. Middle aged women with mid life crisis issues seem to be a target for the manifestation of this ability?

Third, it seems to me the processes we call mind often demonstrate an independence of the physical brain and body. Whether there is enough independence and how this could have evolved are huge problems. Sentience and consciousness do not seem to be physical in nature.

But doesn't brain malfunction affect these abilities? Cognitive, thought processing etc etc? Is that not a physical connection?

Finally, it occurs to me that in the distant future it may become possible for society to bring back to life those who have died -- through now unimaginable technologies. I have to imagine that if this is possible it will be done. Then there will be the question of whether or not such a resurrected person "really" is me.

I am not sure that is possibly for everyone, as some have lived and died alone I am sure, but if everyone did return, it would be awful crowded wouldn't it? We would strip the entire planet of resources in a matter of month's wouldn't we?

[spacecowboy342]

Yet another thing an NDE can be. My favorite 'explanation' of what the bright light is was that it was a memory from coming down the birth canal. Gave me a chuckle to say the least.

I wonder if our geniuses have ever considered that possibility that if one is perceiving a spirit world their might be some changes in the brain to alow that perception....

This is the problem with physicalist fundamentalism.

I thought the birth canal thing sounded pretty plausible. Any evidence that these are anything other than hallucination or that your supposed spirit world has any basis in reality?

[Frank Merton]

Indeed, however, if you feel there is an afterlife, many religions insist it is for people only, and you wont be reunited with your pet dog when you get to heaven.

Who knows. Buddhists think animals are generally reborn the same animal, but animals domesticated by humans have a greater chance to get the good karma that brings about rebirth in a "higher" state (that is as a human or in a heaven).

What is the general consensus on this? Does not seem like a pleasant afterlife if parts of your physical existence are stripped back from you? That is what makes what I consider "The Spirit" of a person.

We constantly change and we constantly lose things and replace them. Death can be considered just a particularly severe episode of such losses.

If we were part of a simulation, would it not be impossible for us to know that, therefore the only reason to believe in a simulation is belief in a simulation?

The argument is that if it is possible it will happen, and simulations within simulations will happen, and so on, so that if it is possible the odds are overwhelming you are in one. That at least is the argument.

I cannot comment on your personal experience, but mine tell me no such thing exists. If such does exist, why are people who want to visit this realm denied, and mostly people of dubious character offered entrance or insight by default? Like the Sylvia Browns of the world? Or that jumped up upstart braggit, Allison DuBois. Middle aged women with mid life crisis issues seem to be a target for the manifestation of this ability?

My experiences can be "explained" in more mundane ways so I don't dwell on them, but they have been enough to make me worry. Obviously what you refer to are frauds.

But doesn't brain malfunction affect these abilities? Cognitive, thought processing etc etc? Is that not a physical connection?

So that shows there is interdependence and that at least while we are alive we are highly dependent on physical brain. I still think there are times when mind can be independent of body, but that "proves" little.

I am not sure that is possibly for everyone, as some have lived and died alone I am sure, but if everyone did return, it would be awful crowded wouldn't it? We would strip the entire planet of resources in a matter of month's wouldn't we?

It would require a technology that actually views past events. I think worries about overpopulation coming from all sorts of places are overblown. With that sort of technology all sorts of solutions to crowding can be imagined.

[White Crane Feather]

I thought the birth canal thing sounded pretty plausible. Any evidence that these are anything other than hallucination or that your supposed spirit world has any basis in reality?

You are kidding right. Have you ever watched a baby being born? And by that logic, c section babies could never have NDEs. I doubt that's the case, though it is certainly testable.

Yes there is tons of evidence. what you define as "hullucination" is impossible to get around because of some very common logical flaws. Primary petitio principii.

Edited November 22, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[spacecowboy342]

You are kidding right. Have you ever watched a baby being born? And by that logic, c section babies could never have NDEs. I doubt that's the case, though it is certainly testable.

Yes there is tons of evidence. what you define as "hullucination" is impossible to get around because of some very common logical flaws. Primary petitio principii.

Actually I haven't watched a baby being born, but I still don't see how you rule out hallucination.

[White Crane Feather]

Actually I haven't watched a baby being born, but I still don't see how you rule out hallucination.

I can't rule out that your words on this little screen is not a hallucination. If I were to try, I would ask other people to compare my experience with what they can see. Reading the same thing I would conclude that indeed I was not seeing something that really wasn't there. However, it gets more difficult if I were in remote china and no one reads English. I could only tell that there were indeed words but not if I were interpreting what they said correctly. Furthermore if all I could compare with we're blind people them it becomes more difficult. I could only have a consensus that English words exist. What about blind and deaf people? I could only know that my phone exists.

The point being you can only rule out hallucination to the extent that you can share in the experience. As it turns out indeed there are quite a number of shared themes in NDEs as well as confirmations by doctors of what NDErs have witnessed. Of course this dies not satisfy scientific scrutiny. Still about 12% of people brought back from near death report an NDE, do its actually reproduced all the time. Scientific scrutiny is necessarily hard to meet, but this does not change the reality of a thing. A good example is the Higgs boson. particle accelerators actually found it a long time ago. We already discovered it!!!!! The problem is that the probability that it was not what we thought it was was only like 1 in 100,000 or 1 in a million ( something like that). That's not enough certainty for high energy particle physics!!!!! They built the LHC partly just to get a few more decimal places on certainty. actually they new it was going to happen and saved that bit to have a poster boy to justify the money spent. Smart people those particle physicists.

Anyway. The striking part about NDEs is that they occur at all. If you were to tell some alien scientist that humans have souls and upon death this soul transitions into another realm that is undetectable by physical instruments, potentially a substrate realm that provides the structure for physical reality. That scientist would then make some predictions and tests to see if this is possible.

1) if humans can remember this transition upon being pulled back from the brink if death, then there should be a certain percentage of people that experience it. Given the human minds are frail, he wouldn't expect more than 8-15% if thise to experience it.

2) human beings are impressionable little things they can't even describe a car accident consistently when they are seated right next to each other much of the time. If they are having these experiences, then details are going to be irrelevant, but there should be certain sets of themes that are universal. They might interpret the little things through their perspective filters but that cannot be said for the major components if what might be happening.

3) if human beings do have a spirit world that they go to, then there are logically some things that should be there. The first and most logical one is that some of their dead family and friends might show up to greet them. There would most likely be a high incidence if some sort of transitional theme. A worm hole, a door or some sort of tunnel.

If human beings are really immature spirit beings with some sort of spirit parent or teacher on the other side, then there should be a high incidence of a review and some sort of grading during these experiences.

All this would have to be statistically consistent. If when they have NDEs all they see are random elements, then it would have to be just a part of their physical brain.

Also there would have to be an antenna of sorts that connecting them in some sort of resonance with these other places. If the human being is indeed apart of another dimension as well, then their brains would have to be this antenna and it should be able to be manipulated by substances, self alteration, accidental injury, or any number of changes to produce some of the experiences that exist in NDEs.

If all of that is satisfied, a very important regression would need to be calculated. If humans are really being pulled back from this place, Human incidence of NDEs must have a positive corolation with their technological improvements of life saving technology. Without this it will be hard he believe.

These are just a few predictions that our alien scientist would make being separate from us. Knowing full well that he lives in a physical "flatland" and other dimensions can only be measured by their effects, he is very interested in what affects other dimensions of reality that he knows exist might have on some part of the physical universe. The human mind might be an antenna or even an embryo of a much greater multi dimensional being. If he can just measure these effects and come back with a strong statistical likely hood supporting his predictions, then he can win the Planet X Nobel prize. He gets in his spaceship.... An low and behold every prediction he made was completely true. Irrefutable evidence that human beings are indeed some sort of larvi stage of inter dimensional beings.

Edited November 23, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[Frank Merton]

The problem I see with shared aspects of NDE experiences is the same as I see with the same thing in alien abductions, visits of the Virgin or angels, sightings of Sasquatch, ghosts and whatnot. They share commonalities because it is what people expect, from having heard the story before or from cultural expectations. Thus, the ghost seen in Vietnam is quite a different fellow from the translucent people dressed in old-fashioned clothes you get in the West.

[White Crane Feather]

The problem I see with shared aspects of NDE experiences is the same as I see with the same thing in alien abductions, visits of the Virgin or angels, sightings of Sasquatch, ghosts and whatnot. They share commonalities because it is what people expect, from having heard the story before or from cultural expectations. Thus, the ghost seen in Vietnam is quite a different fellow from the translucent people dressed in old-fashioned clothes you get in the West.

That's perfectly reasonable

However, NDEs/obes are well documented cross culturally with similar themes even in separated aboriginal cultures. if its not what it appears to be, then it's a universal part of the Human psyche

[SSilhouette]

I tend to like to stick to undeniable facts when examining NDEs for what they are. People who have died have rewoken to describe events and details happening while they were "out" some distances away even; miles away for some. These are details that could not have been known to the person awakening but were corroborated by other witnesses at the distant event or details; down to the ridiculously-small detail...

So, there you go. Random misfiring of the brain cannot explain details recalled from remote places by the patient at the time they were clinically dead.

Edited November 23, 2013 by SSilhouette

[spacecowboy342]

That's perfectly reasonable

However, NDEs/obes are well documented cross culturally with similar themes even in separated aboriginal cultures. if its not what it appears to be, then it's a universal part of the Human psyche

This still doesn't rule out that it is an hallucination produced by stress on the brain. Stress brains in similar ways and get similar results

[White Crane Feather]

This still doesn't rule out that it is an hallucination produced by stress on the brain. Stress brains in similar ways and get similar results

The point here is that you don't just get stressed braines, you get a common set of themes hinting at an afterlife. Life reviewes, meeting dead loved ones, Somone telling you it's not your time yet. If we are just talking about randomness here why not pink elephants on parade

[spacecowboy342]

The point here is that you don't just get stressed braines, you get a common set of themes hinting at an afterlife. Life reviewes, meeting dead loved ones, Somone telling you it's not your time yet. If we are just talking about randomness here why not pink elephants on parade

Perhaps because people desire to see dead loved ones rather than pink elephants. Wish fulfillment by the sub conscious mind Edited November 23, 2013 by spacecowboy342

[docyabut2]

The latest I read in the UK they are going to do some experiments as people seeing items in the room when they are brain dead.They are going to put differant items in the operating rooms, to see if these people are really seeing what they are seeing.

Edited November 24, 2013 by docyabut2

[spacecowboy342]

If the people are brain dead how will they relate what they see? Assuming that a brain dead person can see anything. A pretty tall assumption

Edited November 24, 2013 by spacecowboy342

[Skep B]

I tend to like to stick to undeniable facts when examining NDEs for what they are. People who have died have rewoken to describe events and details happening while they were "out" some distances away even; miles away for some. These are details that could not have been known to the person awakening but were corroborated by other witnesses at the distant event or details; down to the ridiculously-small detail...

So, there you go. Random misfiring of the brain cannot explain details recalled from remote places by the patient at the time they were clinically dead.

I'd like to see documentation of this happening.

[White Crane Feather]

Perhaps because people desire to see dead loved ones rather than pink elephants. Wish fulfillment by the sub conscious mind

Perhaps. But that certainly doesn't cover the life review. In fact it's even a clique in common language. "My life flashed before my eyes". Besides I sriously doubt that a dying brain has those kinds of cognitive abilities. Especially ones with no blood flow.

[spacecowboy342]

Perhaps. But that certainly doesn't cover the life review. In fact it's even a clique in common language. "My life flashed before my eyes". Besides I sriously doubt that a dying brain has those kinds of cognitive abilities. Especially ones with no blood flow.

Life review would seem a normal response to me. The brain goes into hyperdrive and can flash through things much faster than one might normally expect