Comparing Atlantis

[jaylemurph]

.....No puzzle that has lasted so many thousands of years can be explained in one short sentence, especially when the minds of the listener is fully closed.

I never find it less than amazing that "a closed mind" and "doesn't listen to my pet theory" has pretty close to 100% overlap here at UM.

--Jaylemurph

[docyabut2]

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors.

Plato

Exactly and what empire did have a destuction in the Atlas sea,that had a confict with ancient Athens, that no one seem to remember or write about, but the minoian empire and the destrution of Thera.

[Harte]

Thera was not in the Sea of Atlas.

Harte

[cormac mac airt]

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors.

Plato

Exactly and what empire did have a destuction in the Atlas sea,that had a confict with ancient Athens, that no one seem to remember or write about, but the minoian empire and the destrution of Thera.

As Harte pointed out Thera wasn't in the Sea of Atlas, it was in the Mediterranean. Which suggests that you either didn't understand, or purposely ignored, what Plato wrote.

cormac

[Quaentum]

:-)))

All it will take is a simple study of a body of water that is only 70 meters deep......

If it is in the Gulf of Tonkin it will be just one more data set that matches a very consistent theory.

If not......as I said who cares.

Theories are not there to be proven.

Theories are there to be destroyed.

But so far one single theory has explained the Pyramids, Stonehenge, Callanish Stone Circle, Long Meg stone Circle, the Mayan Reset, the Atacama Giant, the origin of writing and successfully predicted the location of geoglyph fields in Iraq, and Russia.

Predicting the location of a sunken city that is located under the constellation Hercules and has the correct dimensions and a central island that is also of the correct dimension makes you think...

But when one has already made up there mind that the city does not exist then the best thing to do is to not to look......

:-)))))

Given the theory has been right so many times before I think there is a good chance that you will find the theory is correct again here :-))))

As written in the Timaeus:

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles;

The power which was called Atlantis, was physically located in the Atlantic ocean not far from the geographical feature, straits, that were commonly called the Pillars of Heracles. The Gulf of Tonkin is not now, nor has it ever been located in the Atlantic Ocean or anywhere near the Straits of Gibraltar.

The clear indication that the pillars are straits eliminates any possibility that the reference was to a celestial body.

No single theory ties together or explains the Pyramids, Stonehenge, Callanish Stone Circle, Long Meg stone Circle, the Mayan Reset, the Atacama Giant, the origin of writing and successfully predicted the location of geoglyph fields in Iraq, and Russia especially if that theory includes Atlantis. If I am wrong please post the evidence for each that ties them to that single theory.

There is no evidence that Atlantis is anything other than a story told by Plato. For evidence that it is just a story we turn the Plato's work Timaeus. In Timaeus it says:

PERSONS OF THE DIALOGUE: Socrates, Critias, Timaeus, Hermocrates.

Let's look at the birth/death dates for each:

Socrates 469-399

Critias 460-403

Timaeus 420-380

Hermocrates ?-407

Knowing that Hermocrates was involved in war in the East Aegean Sea from 412-410 and was killed on his way home in 407 we can surmise that the supposed dialogue could not have taken place later than 413. Timaeus would only have been 7 years old at the time and wouldn't have been involved in such a discussion.

For further evidence that Atlantis is just a story we have this line from the Timaeus:

I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard from Solon and related to us.

Solon's birth/death dates 638-558

In essence Solon died 98 years before Critias was born so Critias could have heard nothing from Solon.

[docyabut2]

As Harte pointed out Thera wasn't in the Sea of Atlas, it was in the Mediterranean. Which suggests that you either didn't understand, or purposely ignored, what Plato wrote.

cormac

As some suggest Atlas `s task`s were never outside of the Agean,so any water ways outside of that would be consider the sea of Atlas who knew the depths of the sea and held up the sky at the farthest ends of the earth,

[granpa]

it's interesting to note that one of the sons of Poseidon at Atlantis was also named atlas

[cormac mac airt]

As some suggest Atlas `s task`s were never outside of the Agean,so any water ways outside of that would be consider the sea of Atlas who knew the depths of the sea and held up the sky at the farthest ends of the earth,

That's not the way it worked. The ancients knew quite well the extent of the Mediterranean, no part of which was ever called the Sea of Atlas, as well as the difference between the Atlantic Ocean (outside the straits) and the Mediterranean (inside the straits). Along with the Atlas Mountains, knowledge of which predated Plato, as well as Cadiz/Gadeira. None of which are located anywhere near the Aegean.

All of which ignores what Plato wrote concerning the story to begin with, which you repeated in Post #977 but apparently failed to understand.

cormac

[docyabut2]

That's not the way it worked. The ancients knew quite well the extent of the Mediterranean, no part of which was ever called the Sea of Atlas, as well as the difference between the Atlantic Ocean (outside the straits) and the Mediterranean (inside the straits). Along with the Atlas Mountains, knowledge of which predated Plato, as well as Cadiz/Gadeira. None of which are located anywhere near the Aegean.

All of which ignores what Plato wrote concerning the story to begin with, which you repeated in Post #977 but apparently failed to understand.

cormac

Like you said the Egyptians never went outside of their own agenda but in the case of atlantis they knew what the greeks did not know of the destruction of Thera

[cormac mac airt]

Like you said the Egyptians never went outside of their own agenda but in the case of atlantis they knew what the greeks did not know of the destruction of Thera

And yet again you're promoting a conclusion that is not backed by any evidence. The Egyptians had no knowledge of Thera's eruption, nor could they have seen its plume from the Delta.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

Like you said the Egyptians never went outside of their own agenda but in the case of atlantis they knew what the greeks did not know of the destruction of Thera

And yet again you're promoting a conclusion that is not backed by any evidence. The Egyptians had no knowledge of Thera's eruption, nor could they have seen its plume from the Delta.

cormac

Doby, think about the geographical proximity of these places. I don't want to contradict cormac and will only say it's likely the Egyptians learned about Thera quite promptly because it's more than likely some Minoan refugees ended up in Egypt. But to cormac's point—about which he is correct—we have no evidence from the Egyptians about the destruction of Thera. Nothing at all. So while the Egyptians would've learned of the disaster, we have no evidence about it from any of their own texts or inscriptions.

But back to proximity. Given the location of Santorini in the Aegean (as well as Crete, for that matter), the Mycenaeans would've learned about it directly and much sooner than the Egyptians. Most residents of Thera who had fled the island before the eruption would've ended up on Crete, other Aegean islands, or mainland Greece.

Always try to remember extent evidence. All students of history are obligated to adhere to it. Speculation has its uses, but speculation is an intellectually dangerous tactic if not used with great care.

[Derek Cunningham]

:-)))))

......and what if the word Pillar meant a link between the earth and the stars above?

Then there would be whole lot of Pillars.....

The description in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillars_of_Hercules produces an exact match with the description given in the book 400,000 years of Stone Age Science for the location of Gades/Hades.

and it gives a location that matches Atlantis.

Plato only mentioned beyond the Pillars of Hercules. That's it.....nothing more

He did not say the Pillars to the west and just after Barcelona turn left travel 10 steps and you'll be there..

:-))))

[jaylemurph]

:-)))))

......and what if the word Pillar meant a link between the earth and the stars above?

Then there would be whole lot of Pillars.....

The description in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia....ars_of_Hercules produces an exact match with the description given in the book 400,000 years of Stone Age Science for the location of Gades/Hades.

and it gives a location that matches Atlantis.

Plato only mentioned beyond the Pillars of Hercules. That's it.....nothing more

He did not say the Pillars to the west and just after Barcelona turn left travel 10 steps and you'll be there..

:-))))

All right, I'm game: WHAT IF a word with a specific meaning had an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT meaning from the documented, linguisitc use of its denotation? Other than the entire semiotic breakodwn of how language works? Or rather, smurf gesamtkuntswerk boing-boing larpingo datoi?

--Jaylemurph

[docyabut2]

If the story is true, it would have to be based on a real empire that did exist in history, that may have ruled the seas of Egypt, and Europe to the Tyrrhenia,the Minoan empire or the Tartessian empire.

Plato

because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries,

Surely there would be a record of trades to a place called Atlantis if that were the name.

[kmt_sesh]

...

rather, smurf gesamtkuntswerk boing-boing larpingo datoi?

--Jaylemurph

Well, boing-boingo larpingo datoi smurf-gesam doodle-poop back at ya.

[kmt_sesh]

If the story is true, it would have to be based on a real empire that did exist in history, that may have ruled the seas of Egypt, and Europe to the Tyrrhenia,the Minoan empire or the Tartessian empire.

Plato

because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries,

Surely there would be a record of trades to a place called Atlantis if that were the name.

That's one of the inherent weaknesses of the tale, doby—at least, if one is trying to approach it as real history. No empire of the ancient Mediterranean world was anything close to that size till the Romans came along. And no empire, period, existed 9,000 years before Solon.

[Harte]

Well, boing-boingo larpingo datoi smurf-gesam doodle-poop back at ya.

Really, Kmt!

I shouldn't have to remind a mod of this, but:

3c. Profanity: Do not use profanity (for example, terms such as larpingo datoi,) crude language or attempt to deliberately bypass the profanity filters.

Source

On second thought and upon further reading:

5i. Rule quoting: Do not quote the site rules to other members, if you believe the rules have been broken please hit the 'report' button.

Oops and oops!

Harte

[Quaentum]

:-)))))

......and what if the word Pillar meant a link between the earth and the stars above?

Then there would be whole lot of Pillars.....

The description in wikipedia http://en.wikipedia....ars_of_Hercules produces an exact match with the description given in the book 400,000 years of Stone Age Science for the location of Gades/Hades.

and it gives a location that matches Atlantis.

Plato only mentioned beyond the Pillars of Hercules. That's it.....nothing more

He did not say the Pillars to the west and just after Barcelona turn left travel 10 steps and you'll be there..

:-))))

I love how you ignore facts. I have already shown that Plato himself refers to a geographic feature for the Pillars of Heracles and that he also refers to Atlantis as a power that came from out of the Atlantic Ocean. In no way, if you are actually thinking, can this be interpreted as space.

[kmt_sesh]

Really, Kmt!

I shouldn't have to remind a mod of this, but:

Source

On second thought and upon further reading:

Oops and oops!

Harte

LOL I'm going to let that one pass because it was too damn funny. You doodle-poop.

[Lion of Judah]

I Ancient times communing with the Gods was more possible and Plato had this psychic ability just look at this artists impression of Atlantis as children of Zion we all have this ability but theres a darkside to this as it envokes evil cause you are more open to another dimension I've seen the other side

[ShadowSot]

I Ancient times communing with the Gods was more possible and Plato had this psychic ability just look at this artists impression of Atlantis as children of Zion we all have this ability but theres a darkside to this as it envokes evil cause you are more open to another dimension I've seen the other side

lol

It seems modern Atlantis hunters have very little to do with Plato and more Ignatius Donneley or Madame Blavatsky.

[Harry_Dresden]

That's one of the inherent weaknesses of the tale, doby—at least, if one is trying to approach it as real history. No empire of the ancient Mediterranean world was anything close to that size till the Romans came along. And no empire, period, existed 9,000 years before Solon.

...well that's right to a point. The time period pretty much excludes it from the realm of possibility that Atlantis was a real advanced city BUT there were other civilisations before the Romans, that could have created cities that have been destroyed for whatever reason that now "pass" for Atlantis.

Kinda sad though... that every time they find one of these sunken remains of some long forgotten civilisation that it's automatically 'Atlantis.' Surely the archeological community can extract funds to further investigate these sites on their own merit without labelling everything they find as the utopian Atlantis.

[spacecowboy342]

I hope that's not the conclusion EnigmaticLines is trying to draw. About Alexander's motivations, I mean. I didn't read that in his post, but I'll let him reply to it.

I could write all day about Alexander. To me he is one of the most fascinating and accomplished figures from the ancient Mediterranean world. But as far as that goes, and as the ancient biographers record, Alexander was never quite the star pupil and had a less than perfect relationship with his tutors (Aristotle included), although he appears to have respected them (especially Aristotle, to whom he sent specimens of exotic flora and fauna as he campaigned eastward).

There is only one written text we know which kept Alexander's interest, and that was The Iliad. A man of action, Alexander fashioned himself after the great heroes of that tale, especially Achilles (just as succeeding conquerers from Greece and Rome fashioned themselves after Alexander). I know of no evidence that Alexander ever read of Plato's Atlantis tale, nor was Alexander probably the type of man who would've found an interest in it.

It's always struck me as somewhat ironic that as profoundly mystical and powerful as Timaeus and Critias are to modern Atlantis "believers," they appear to have been of minor import to most Greeks and Romans of that age.

I've always been a big fan of Alexander as well. The story of his meeting with Diogenes, though maybe not historically factual has always been one of my favorites Edited December 21, 2013 by spacecowboy342

[cormac mac airt]

...well that's right to a point. The time period pretty much excludes it from the realm of possibility that Atlantis was a real advanced city BUT there were other civilisations before the Romans, that could have created cities that have been destroyed for whatever reason that now "pass" for Atlantis.

Kinda sad though... that every time they find one of these sunken remains of some long forgotten civilisation that it's automatically 'Atlantis.' Surely the archeological community can extract funds to further investigate these sites on their own merit without labelling everything they find as the utopian Atlantis.

The alleged location of Atlantis excludes it from the realm of possibility as well.

It's even sadder when an ancient site is found and automatically declared a civilization, without actually showing evidence that meets the criteria for same.

cormac

[jaylemurph]

Funny Plato himself never mentioned his psychic superpowers. Or Aristotle. Or anyone else who ever wrote about him.

Must have been in one of those lost dialogues, hunh, Lion?

--Jaylemurph