[Merged] Madeleine McCann

[Duke Wellington]

How long does someone have to be dead in order for the dogs to pick up the scent? I always thought if she was killed in the apartment they'd have taken her body out pretty quickly. I don't think it'd be there long enough to leave a scent.

A sniffer dog needs the person to have been dead at least 2 hours. The dog used in the apartment detected a corpse had been in a bedroom cubboard and behind the chair in the main room. It also detected the smell of corpse on Kates clothes which when the Police arrived had been mysteriously just put through the washing machine. The smell of corpse was also on Maddies soft toy and pyjamas. Then there's the rental car too which I believe was hired sometime after she was reported as missing!

Assuming it was someone else then the criminal isn't behaving as 99% should when it comes to target selection and dumping. However with the sniffer dog, the personality makeup of the parents and what could be seen as their own dumping behaviour with the rental car then it would appear to indicate the McCanns. The lack of hard evidence and no trace of Maddie, which is virtually inconcievable, points towards the McCanns taking forensic countermeasures.

Why has the rental car not been examined? They should have gone over it with a microscope looking for plant material. Grains of pollen from unusual plants can show where the car was driven during their missing time on the way to Spain. It would have given the correct dumping ground. Does the car not have a GPS chip? Do their mobile phones not have a GPS chip? Do their watches or sat navs not have a GPS chip?

Come on Police do your job instead of letting the media attention bias your investigations in favour of the McCanns.

Edited July 9, 2014 by RabidMongoose

[skookum]

A sniffer dog needs the person to have been dead at least 2 hours. The dog used in the apartment detected a corpse had been in a bedroom cubboard and behind the chair in the main room. It also detected the smell of corpse on Kates clothes which when the Police arrived had been mysteriously just put through the washing machine. The smell of corpse was also on Maddies soft toy and pyjamas. Then there's the rental car too which I believe was hired sometime after she was reported as missing!

Assuming it was someone else then the criminal isn't behaving as 99% should when it comes to target selection and dumping. However with the sniffer dog, the personality makeup of the parents and what could be seen as their own dumping behaviour with the rental car then it would appear to indicate the McCanns. The lack of hard evidence and no trace of Maddie, which is virtually inconcievable, points towards the McCanns taking forensic countermeasures.

Why has the rental car not been examined? They should have gone over it with a microscope looking for plant material. Grains of pollen from unusual plants can show where the car was driven during their missing time on the way to Spain. It would have given the correct dumping ground. Does the car not have a GPS chip? Do their mobile phones not have a GPS chip? Do their watches or sat navs not have a GPS chip?

Come on Police do your job instead of letting the media attention bias your investigations in favour of the McCanns.

It's been said it was the Police in the UK that suggested to the Portuguese police they should look at the parents more carefully. It seems ever since then they have hung out to dry but following this line of enquiry.

My personal opinion is a lot of this nonsense being printed in the press has been carefully timed to grab headlines when things are released about the current libel trial.

I fully expect them to win this like they have won every other they have taken out. With their legal backing it would be hard to lose. I hear it has been adjourned again with a restart date, although it looks like September.

So I think we will hear very little from Scotland Yard until this restarts and we will probably have more ludicrous theories they will be working on.

[Duke Wellington]

It's been said it was the Police in the UK that suggested to the Portuguese police they should look at the parents more carefully. It seems ever since then they have hung out to dry but following this line of enquiry.

My personal opinion is a lot of this nonsense being printed in the press has been carefully timed to grab headlines when things are released about the current libel trial.

I fully expect them to win this like they have won every other they have taken out. With their legal backing it would be hard to lose. I hear it has been adjourned again with a restart date, although it looks like September.

So I think we will hear very little from Scotland Yard until this restarts and we will probably have more ludicrous theories they will be working on.

The sniffer dog detection of a corpse in the appartment means Maddie must have been dead for at least two hours before the Police were called. Did they kill her before going to dinner? Earlier that day? Or even on that day? Were their two other children of an age where they could report them hurting Maddie? If yes, surely they wouldn't have been present when Maddie was killed? Where there times when they were being looked after by the McCanns friends or dropped off at the day centre? Could that be when it happened?

In the McCann interviews, dispite them appearing upset and appearing to be crying, why when we look closely do we notice no actual tears rolling down their faces? Why were the McCanns seen apparently happy a few days after her reported disappearance and what about their claims on tv that the reason why they weren't upset (this was 5 days later) was because they had gotten over the distress quickly?

Normal parents never get over something like that happening and would still be in quite a state months after losing a child. The guilt, the fear for the child, the shame of not doing a better job looking after her would cause them emotional problems for a long time. Yet the McCanns cheerily go out jogging a few days later. They appear happy in photos of them running. Thats strange.

Why did the McCanns lie about their credit card? Could there be transactions that show them being somewhere they'd prefer the Police not to know about? A dumping ground?

Edited July 9, 2014 by RabidMongoose

[The Puzzler]

Hold on. You start off by saying there's no jealousy then you say that Maddy's abduction has publicity because of who the McCanns are and the influence they have. That's not logical.

And I'm not replying now specifically to you but there appears to be a lot of what can I say? putting down of the McCanns especially from the Brits. I don't know the McCanns and I doubt any of you do either. I have posted with someone on another board who lives not far from them and speaks of them in glowing terms.

Doesn't mean much, I know but again, this malignment (I just invented a word!!) of the McCanns is the same as what the Ramseys went through.

We all agree, they made a mistake but they are the ones who have lived through this, not you. I have no idea how much they have suffered and are still suffering but what they did what was apparently a common thing at the time. Unfortunately for them and Maddie, they were targeted.

And Becky's Mom, while you're getting all steamed up about parents leaving their kids alone, sometimes both my parents worked at night and my brother and I were left alone in the house. We didn't burn it down, we didn't hurt each other, we didn't wreck anything and we weren't concerned.

My parents had to work too and I spent much of my young childhood at home alone.

Its a shame how many here are so judgemental on the parents.

My friends 7 year old daughter jumped out her open bedroom window after being sent there for being naughty, then walked to a creek, fell in and drowned.

Should my friend condemn herself because she didn't shut the window or have screens on them? She's already condemned to a life without her beautiful little girl, and her last words to her were angry, room sending words.

Where do we stop judging of what we should have, could have done...?

[The Puzzler]

Normal parents never get over something like that happening and would still be in quite a state months after losing a child. The guilt, the fear for the child, the shame of not doing a better job looking after her would cause them emotional problems for a long time. Yet the McCanns cheerily go out jogging a few days later. They appear happy in photos of them running. Thats strange.

"Normal parents" act in very different ways to what others expectations are of them. Even though Maddie was missing at that point, there was nothing to say she was dead and they had other young children, are they meant to be balling their eyes out, being an emotional wreck whilst still tending to them? That can be frightening for the other children and parents will try and be brave and put on a front for that reason alone.

Lindy Chamberlain was also judged harshly for not going around crying her eyes out like so many expected that she should do.

Kate's situation reflected that of Lindy Chamberlain, mother of Azaria Chamberlain, the baby who was killed by a dingo in Australia in 1980. Lindy spent three years in prison for a murder that had not occurred after the public judged her too unemotional in her responses;

http://en.wikipedia....adeleine_McCann

Rather than judge the parents why not look at the corruption that is abundant within police circles toward child pornography and abuses of children, this is where I'm pretty sure the real culprit lies, unfortunately, in the McCann case.

Amaral was head of the regional Polícia Judiciária in Portimão at the time of the disappearance, and was himself an arguido in another case. A month after Madeleine went missing, he and four other officers were charged with offences related to their investigation into the disappearance of Joana Cipriano, an eight-year-old Portuguese girl who vanished in September 2004 from Figueira, seven miles (11 km) from Praia da Luz. Her body was never found and no murder weapon was ever identified. The girl's mother, Leonor Cipriano, launched a campaign to find her daughter, but was accused of having killed her; the mother and her brother were convicted of murder after confessing to the killing. The mother retracted her confession, saying she had been beaten by police; the police accounted for bruising on her face and body by saying she had thrown herself down some stairs in the police station. Amaral was not present when the beating is alleged to have taken place, but was accused of having covered up for others. In May 2009 he was convicted of perjury and received an 18-month suspended sentence

Edited July 9, 2014 by The Puzzler

[Mr.United_Nations]

Still you don't leave kids alone ina a place they have never been before

[skookum]

The sniffer dog detection of a corpse in the appartment means Maddie must have been dead for at least two hours before the Police were called. Did they kill her before going to dinner? Earlier that day? Or even on that day? Were their two other children of an age where they could report them hurting Maddie? If yes, surely they wouldn't have been present when Maddie was killed? Where there times when they were being looked after by the McCanns friends or dropped off at the day centre? Could that be when it happened?

In the McCann interviews, dispite them appearing upset and appearing to be crying, why when we look closely do we notice no actual tears rolling down their faces? Why were the McCanns seen apparently happy a few days after her reported disappearance and what about their claims on tv that the reason why they weren't upset (this was 5 days later) was because they had gotten over the distress quickly?

Normal parents never get over something like that happening and would still be in quite a state months after losing a child. The guilt, the fear for the child, the shame of not doing a better job looking after her would cause them emotional problems for a long time. Yet the McCanns cheerily go out jogging a few days later. They appear happy in photos of them running. Thats strange.

Why did the McCanns lie about their credit card? Could there be transactions that show them being somewhere they'd prefer the Police not to know about? A dumping ground?

There is so much the average Joe doesn't know. The press and Government paint the picture of a dream couple of doctors who were the victims of a viscous crime and then subjected to injustice.

I don't know what happened, but I have read a hell of a lot more than people who rely on the biased accounts written in the press. I can see you have too.

I fully expect them to win their libel, and be fully cleared of any involvement by the Scotland Yard investigation. They had powerful people on their side at the time and still do now. What happened to that poor child will remain a mystery imo.

[Duke Wellington]

There is so much the average Joe doesn't know. The press and Government paint the picture of a dream couple of doctors who were the victims of a viscous crime and then subjected to injustice.

I don't know what happened, but I have read a hell of a lot more than people who rely on the biased accounts written in the press. I can see you have too.

I fully expect them to win their libel, and be fully cleared of any involvement by the Scotland Yard investigation. They had powerful people on their side at the time and still do now. What happened to that poor child will remain a mystery imo.

The case notes are on the internet for all to see. People should educate themselves instead of reading The Sun Newspaper. Hopefully the libel will be delayed and delayed until the parents get rearrested.

[CuriousLittleOne]

How long does someone have to be dead in order for the dogs to pick up the scent? I always thought if she was killed in the apartment they'd have taken her body out pretty quickly. I don't think it'd be there long enough to leave a scent.

its 2 hours, the same for rigor mortis to set in

[Duke Wellington]

The fact is, she's missing from that apartment and investigators will look for her in obvious locations.

When the second, more thorough search of that field came up empty, then all that would indicate to investigators is that if she's dead, then that's not where her body is.

The Police would have created a list of scenarios - killer parents, child abductor, robbery gone bad, etc. The criminologists on the case would have put themselves into the shoes of each looking at why they would target Madeline and where they would dump the body. With thousands of murders every year they know the thought processes criminals go through when choosing where to dump corpses.

For the body not to be in those searched areas it means the killer(s) have enough knowledge of criminology to have taken forensic counter measures. Everything points towards the parents. I think its a case of they know that we know that they know that we know and both sides are trying to outsmart the other.

[Regi]

The Police would have created a list of scenarios - killer parents, child abductor, robbery gone bad, etc. The criminologists on the case would have put themselves into the shoes of each looking at why they would target Madeline and where they would dump the body. With thousands of murders every year they know the thought processes criminals go through when choosing where to dump corpses.

They have to follow the evidence for any hope of an effective/productive investigation.

For the body not to be in those searched areas it means the killer(s) have enough knowledge of criminology to have taken forensic counter measures.

Not to me, it doesn't.

[mbrn30000]

The Police would have created a list of scenarios - killer parents, child abductor, robbery gone bad, etc. The criminologists on the case would have put themselves into the shoes of each looking at why they would target Madeline and where they would dump the body. With thousands of murders every year they know the thought processes criminals go through when choosing where to dump corpses.

For the body not to be in those searched areas it means the killer(s) have enough knowledge of criminology to have taken forensic counter measures. Everything points towards the parents. I think its a case of they know that we know that they know that we know and both sides are trying to outsmart the other.

I think you are correct that some law enforcement agencies have research and statistics about murders, but we don't have anything other than one witness who saw a man carrying a child maybe, and the version of events told by the parents. The type of criminal does not tell us possible dumpsite, the discovered dumpsite tells us about the criminal The green river killer dumped his bodies in hard to find places he liked to revisit and some in the river. The police could tell more about who he was by the nature of his victims and that is what led to the eventual capture....years later. I think you have the cart before the horse. They don't know who or what this perp is. As far as his or her knowledge of counter measures? there is nothing in this case that tells us that. I don't think the police can rule anything out. This could be a mentally ill person, one of the parents or both, a friend, a stranger, a sophisticated person, a hotel employee....anybody...all we know is the child was not in her room and how she went missing, we do not know. John Wayne Gacy hid bodies in his house for years, decades even, but he did not know counter measures, he just dug holes under his house. He messed up when one of the boys that disappeared told his mother where he was going. I think there are two schools of thought in this case, the parents did something or someone else did...other than that, the police are not much further along.

[CuriousLittleOne]

wherever the body is , there are only two likely scenarios

1 . the killer/s were knowledgeable to police protocol and knew of likely serch places

2. the killer/s had little to no knowledge of police protocol and did not know of likely police serch places, being very lucky that a body/parts / dna have not been found

( yes i believe madeleine is dead at this point, i believe she was killed up to a week after she was found to be missing)

[Mr.United_Nations]

any updates?

[skookum]

any updates?

Police to question the first suspect Robert Murat.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-30115913

He was cleared in the original investigation and won £600,000 damages against the UK press.

Murat offered his services as a translator early on and helped the Portuguese police. A Sky news reporter became suspicious of his behaviour and voiced their concerns. In addition Jane Tanner who claimed to have seen somebody carrying a child away changed her statement from not being able to see the person to it was definitely Murat with a child.

Since then the person carrying the child has been identified and it was neither Robert Murat or Madeline McCann that Tanner saw that night.

[danibear]

This is becoming more prevelant in the press now due to the fact that the police now want to question the guy again.

This is a link from the McCanns website - What the mother says is interesting regarding Robert Murat.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id218.html - from 2008.

[skookum]

I never know what to think about Murat.

He was either a very good citizen stepping in to help out Brits in trouble or a man who was known could get things done, or have the connections to get them done.

I seem to remember Gerry McCann avoiding the question about whether he had ever met Murat before he got involved as a translator.

[danibear]

I never know what to think about Murat.

He was either a very good citizen stepping in to help out Brits in trouble or a man who was known could get things done, or have the connections to get them done.

I seem to remember Gerry McCann avoiding the question about whether he had ever met Murat before he got involved as a translator.

I'm a little unsure about him too. Agree with what you wrote above. Hes either a very good samaritan or a sketchy creature.

[Mr.United_Nations]

any updates?

[skookum]

any updates?

The McCann's have just won another libel case against the former Portuguese detective.

Scotland Yard are concentrating on the Smith sighting. A man reportedly carrying a child around 10pm that night. The other man carrying child has been eliminated.

Scotland yard wanted to end the case as its cost has risen above £10m and they do not feel they have any substantial leads. This has now been back tracked on and the so called Smithman is now centre of investigation.

[Sweetpumper]

SEARCH FOR MADELEINE

Police in McCann case turn to Australia after grisly find

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/07/28/search-for-madeleine-mccann-expands-to-australia/?intcmp=hpbt3

[Shadowpup]

Police have confirmed it was not Madeleine McCann.

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/madeleine-mccann-police-confirm-murdered-child-found-in-suitcase-in-australia-is-not-missing-youngster-31412488.html