Germany Severing Profitable Ties to Russia

[stevewinn]

@Stevewinn:

1. There is no evidence to support your claim that the EU funded any such protest

Are we to believe that in the face of no paper trail that the EU didn't help fund the protests. It's well known America was funding them, did the EU just standby watching, the EU wouldn't have like the US coming over running the show in Europe's own back yard - the EU wouldn't have liked that so would have at least matched the US spending. we can guarantee that. As for providing a link from a credible source its not going to happen. Were not exactly going to read on the EU balance sheet under outgoings €1million for Ukraine protest. your asking us to believe the EU is whiter than white and doesn't use funds as a tool for influence?

2. If Cathy Ashton was not welcome in the Ukraine then Yanukovych could simply have repealed her visa and entry to the country.

What about the Americans flying in Victoria Nunland. or even John McCain. All the big hitters where there. remember who they were backing at the time in the early days, a eurovision contestant and an ex-boxer. It's to simplistic to say he could have revoked their visas. why would he? at the time they were not conspiring against him. in fact Yanukovych's position wasn't under threat, they were still holding talks with him, It was in November Yanukovych postponed the signing. it was later that month the first protests started. before that Yanukovych held a number of meetings with the EU's Cathy Aston. one of the last meetings they had was in late January. Yanukovch wasn't removed from office until February. so why cancel visas. in early February the EU was still talking about keeping him in office until the next elections. corrupt or not, they hadn't totally given up on their man. by the time events turned nasty the Ukrainian government was in turmoil, events had over taken Yanukovych and he was on a downward slide.

4. This is entirely irrelevant to the argument. It would appear though, that Yanukovych had been embezzling from the Ukraine people for a very long time.

So what your saying is the EU had no idea their man was corrupt, or caught up in embezzlement. even though he'd been doing it for years. shocking at best naive at worst.

5. So a Prime Minister receiving massive backhanders from the Russian leader to renege on his election promise does not constitute “making a move”?

I actually said, they were both using soft power. But at that time Russia hadn't made a move beyond that. the first scenes of violence came as a direct result of the EU backed protests. Russia was only greasing Yanukovych hand. Are you asking us to believe the EU never offered Yanukovych sweeteners at any point? or is that just a Russian trick?

6. If Yanukovych had kept his pledge to sign an EU Association Agreement (his sole platform for election) then yes, he would still be in power, until his robbery of the Ukraine Citizens came to light, then he would have faced exactly the same pressure to leave.

So you agree he would still be in power if he'd signed the agreement. So he was fine to remain President as long as he played ball. by that statement and the point made above - you seem to think the EU was totally unaware of his corruption and embezzlement. I find that hard to believe and don't believe it. the EU knew nothing of the goings on. c'mon. I find it astonishing you think the EU were unaware, as your statement suggests - by stating once they find out he'd be removed.

As a general observation: Putin can cut off gas and oil supplies whenever he like because western stockpiles are all at record highs - enough to get through the harshest of winters - and the supply of LNG and LPG is at an all time high from Asia which has driven prices down. The pipeline to Ukraine is not a simple "one - way" only system. It can receive gas and oil from it's surrounding friendly neighbours at an equally low cost, and there are a number of would - be suppliers queuing up to offload their goods immediately.

The truth is that Putin's threat to cut off oil and gas has backfired spectacularly - expecting to actually lose this income stream (because the nations west of Russia don't need it) he has had to make a disastrous deal with China to export oil and gas at just a fraction above production costs.

So basically, there is nothing Putin can threaten in terms of sanctions that can have any real effect at all - all he can do is to "cut off his nose to spite his face".

It was a Do or Die scenario, the very fact its do or die would Putin worry if it backfired spectacularly. If he was going down he'd take everyone with him, sink the whole ship. seen in the News again to day. fears for the German economy. and the Eurozone. Putin mightn't have to do anything except sit back and watch. as the sanctions placed by Germany backfire on Germany followed by the Eurozone. Italy is already back in recession for the third time. It's a good job Spain is seeing growth.

[keithisco]

[/color][/size]

Are we to believe that in the face of no paper trail that the EU didn't help fund the protests. It's well known America was funding them, did the EU just standby watching, the EU wouldn't have like the US coming over running the show in Europe's own back yard - the EU wouldn't have liked that so would have at least matched the US spending. we can guarantee that. As for providing a link from a credible source its not going to happen. Were not exactly going to read on the EU balance sheet under outgoings €1million for Ukraine protest. your asking us to believe the EU is whiter than white and doesn't use funds as a tool for influence?

[/color]

What about the Americans flying in Victoria Nunland. or even John McCain. All the big hitters where there. remember who they were backing at the time in the early days, a eurovision contestant and an ex-boxer. It's to simplistic to say he could have revoked their visas. why would he? at the time they were not conspiring against him. in fact Yanukovych's position wasn't under threat, they were still holding talks with him, It was in November Yanukovych postponed the signing. it was later that month the first protests started. before that Yanukovych held a number of meetings with the EU's Cathy Aston. one of the last meetings they had was in late January. Yanukovch wasn't removed from office until February. so why cancel visas. in early February the EU was still talking about keeping him in office until the next elections. corrupt or not, they hadn't totally given up on their man. by the time events turned nasty the Ukrainian government was in turmoil, events had over taken Yanukovych and he was on a downward slide.

So what your saying is the EU had no idea their man was corrupt, or caught up in embezzlement. even though he'd been doing it for years. shocking at best naive at worst.

[/color]

I actually said, they were both using soft power. But at that time Russia hadn't made a move beyond that. the first scenes of violence came as a direct result of the EU backed protests. Russia was only greasing Yanukovych hand. Are you asking us to believe the EU never offered Yanukovych sweeteners at any point? or is that just a Russian trick?

So you agree he would still be in power if he'd signed the agreement. So he was fine to remain President as long as he played ball. by that statement and the point made above - you seem to think the EU was totally unaware of his corruption and embezzlement. I find that hard to believe and don't believe it. the EU knew nothing of the goings on. c'mon. I find it astonishing you think the EU were unaware, as your statement suggests - by stating once they find out he'd be removed.

It was a Do or Die scenario, the very fact its do or die would Putin worry if it backfired spectacularly. If he was going down he'd take everyone with him, sink the whole ship. seen in the News again to day. fears for the German economy. and the Eurozone. Putin mightn't have to do anything except sit back and watch. as the sanctions placed by Germany backfire on Germany followed by the Eurozone. Italy is already back in recession for the third time. It's a good job Spain is seeing growth.

Steve: you have shown nothing whatsoever to support your claims.

Yes he would have remained in office whilst pursuing the Ukrainian Electorates desire for closer EU Links. He UNILATERALLY (and lets not forget that) dumped the EU and forged ahead with a co-operation pact with Russia - he did not have a mandate to do that, it was against the express wishes of the electorate hence the Maidan protests.

The man ran away just one day after claiming to have made an agreement with the opposition parties.

Cathy Ashton turned up on 11 Dec 2013 - so Yanukovych could certainly have repealed visa's as he was already under incredible pressure to resign.

Don't believe everything you might read about Spain turning an economic corner - of the new jobs created in the last 3 months 93% were temporary, seasonal jobs. Temporary employers are hiring more than normal because the labour has become very cheap - end of September = realistic employment figures.

Edited August 14, 2014 by keithisco

[stevewinn]

Steve: you have shown nothing whatsoever to support your claims.

Yes he would have remained in office whilst pursuing the Ukrainian Electorates desire for closer EU Links. He UNILATERALLY (and lets not forget that) dumped the EU and forged ahead with a co-operation pact with Russia - he did not have a mandate to do that, it was against the express wishes of the electorate hence the.

The man ran away just one day after claiming to have made an agreement with the opposition parties.

Cathy Ashton turned up on 11 Dec 2013 - so Yanukovych could certainly have repealed visa's as he was already under incredible pressure to resign.

What claims am i not supporting? The EU along with Cathy Aston was in Ukraine early November and i don't mean with the protesters, but with Yanukovych. she also held a meeting with him in January 2014. and as late as February 5th 2014. just 17 days before being ousted. nice picture of the pair. so again why would Yanukovych repeal visas? when their still shaking hands and on amicable terms? thinking a deal can be done.

picture taken on 5th February 2014. 17 days before being ousted.

http://ec.europa.eu/avservices/video/player.cfm?ref=I086143

I have a feeling were going to end up going in circles. instead i've taken the time to highlight the bigger picture and what led up to events. a good snap shot of events - i hope those interested take the time to read it and watch the reports. it'll save going over old ground again and again.

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.

Edited August 14, 2014 by stevewinn

[keithisco]

What claims am i not supporting? The EU along with Cathy Aston was in Ukraine early November and i don't mean with the protesters, but with Yanukovych. she also held a meeting with him in January 2014. and as late as February 5th 2014. just 17 days before being ousted. nice picture of the pair. so again why would Yanukovych repeal visas? when their still shaking hands and on amicable terms? thinking a deal can be done.

picture taken on 5th February 2014. 17 days before being ousted.

http://ec.europa.eu/...cfm?ref=I086143

I have a feeling were going to end up going in circles. instead i've taken the time to highlight the bigger picture and what led up to events. a good snap shot of events - i hope those interested take the time to read it and watch the reports. it'll save going over old ground again and again.

.

Having spent too much of my life going over your interminable links I can say - without reservation - that NONE of them support your views.

The only thing that they do support is that Yanukovych, unilaterally and with NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER, decided to change the face of Ukrainian Foreign Policy to suit his own larcenous activities. Having fled with much of his stolen fortune intact, what do you hear from him now? Nothing

[Space Commander Travis]

Wherein nobody , except RT, seems to have any evidence that the shooter were not paid for by Janukovich.

What, even the neo-Nazi elements? Svodoba, aren't they called? They were paid by the ex Tyrant as well? Or wouldn't they possibly involve themselves in anything so underhand, only the Russkies would do that. Is there a rolleyes smilie here?

[Helen of Annoy]

What, even the neo-Nazi elements? Svodoba, aren't they called? They were paid by the ex Tyrant as well? Or wouldn't they possibly involve themselves in anything so underhand, only the Russkies would do that. Is there a rolleyes smilie here?

Why are you commenting if you can’t even copy the name right?

Svoboda.

Very simple. It means Freedom and the lack of freedom is too often the reason why people sometimes go to the extreme.

Spodobo jedna (mild, humorous, not really an insult)

Some of the most extreme extremists were pacified by Ukrainian forces, so I leave it to you to guess who was their actual boss.

[stevewinn]

Having spent too much of my life going over your interminable links I can say - without reservation - that NONE of them support your views.

The only thing that they do support is that Yanukovych, unilaterally and with NO SUPPORT WHATSOEVER, decided to change the face of Ukrainian Foreign Policy to suit his own larcenous activities. Having fled with much of his stolen fortune intact, what do you hear from him now? Nothing

expand on it Keith what's my view.

[keithisco]

expand on it Keith what's my view.

This getting tedious Steve:

1. It would appear that you believe that the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine.

2. You appear to believe that this sovereign Nation can be manipulated like a "puppet".

3. You appear to believe that the Democratically Elected Govt. is actually only in place by sanction of the EU / USA

4. You appear to believe that the popular uprising against the former PM was all orchestrated and funded by the EU / USA, and deny the right of the Ukraine people to actually instigate peaceful - the demand for a new set of elections

I think that covers what your views appear to be... let me know if I am wrong.

[questionmark]

This getting tedious Steve:

1. It would appear that you believe that the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine.

2. You appear to believe that this sovereign Nation can be manipulated like a "puppet".

3. You appear to believe that the Democratically Elected Govt. is actually only in place by sanction of the EU / USA

4. You appear to believe that the popular uprising against the former PM was all orchestrated and funded by the EU / USA, and deny the right of the Ukraine people to actually instigate peaceful - the demand for a new set of elections

I think that covers what your views appear to be... let me know if I am wrong.

As long as 1. applies Steve will let you have the other three as good faith measure, I'd venture to say....

[Guest]

Why are you commenting if you can’t even copy the name right?

Svoboda.

Very simple. It means Freedom and the lack of freedom is too often the reason why people sometimes go to the extreme.

Spodobo jedna (mild, humorous, not really an insult)

Some of the most extreme extremists were pacified by Ukrainian forces, so I leave it to you to guess who was their actual boss.

You can call yourself the little fluffy bunnies if you like, but if your manifesto and creed are Nazi that don't change a thing.

Br Cornelius

[Space Commander Travis]

Why are you commenting if you can’t even copy the name right?

Svoboda.

Very simple. It means Freedom and the lack of freedom is too often the reason why people sometimes go to the extreme.

Boy, that can cover a whole range of sins, can't it. No attempt to protest that they're not extreme right wing, note, and no apparent criticism of them for that. So they were suffering so harshly under the iron heel of the Yanukovich dictatorship that it was completely understandable that they'd turn to the far-right?

Some of the most extreme extremists were pacified by Ukrainian forces, so I leave it to you to guess who was their actual boss

The CIA, you mean, realizing that being seen to support neo-Nazis might be rather bad PR?

[keithisco]

You can call yourself the little fluffy bunnies if you like, but if your manifesto and creed are Nazi that don't change a thing.

Br Cornelius

You haven't actually read the Svoboda manifesto have you ***NO****.

You are fixated on anyone not agreeing with your point of view, as being neo - Nazis, or plain Nazi's.

You really take Godwinism to new extremes, and this makes your posts pretty irrelevant because they lack any factual basis, you do not independently research any of the "facts" you present (relying on extremely biased bloggers and quoting them verbatim) as I have had to point up your errors time and again.

[keithisco]

Boy, that can cover a whole range of sins, can't it. No attempt to protest that they're not extreme right wing, note, and no apparent criticism of them for that. So they were suffering so harshly under the iron heel of the Yanukovich dictatorship that it was completely understandable that they'd turn to the far-right?

The CIA, you mean, realizing that being seen to support neo-Nazis might be rather bad PR?

Your responses are becoming fatuous in the extreme - I understand exactly what Helen is saying, yet you pretend she is saying something else. The Ukraine people did not "turn to the extreme right" . They protested a Failed and corrupt PM who decided, all by himself, to change the direction that a future Ukraine would take - against the wishes of the Ukraine Electorate as expressed in the 2012 General Elections.

You are also labouring under the false premise (exhorting Godwinism again) that the Ukraine Electorate are all neo - Nazi.

Edited August 15, 2014 by keithisco

[stevewinn]

This getting tedious Steve:

1. It would appear that you believe that the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine.

2. You appear to believe that this sovereign Nation can be manipulated like a "puppet".

3. You appear to believe that the Democratically Elected Govt. is actually only in place by sanction of the EU / USA

4. You appear to believe that the popular uprising against the former PM was all orchestrated and funded by the EU / USA, and deny the right of the Ukraine people to actually instigate peaceful - the demand for a new set of elections

I think that covers what your views appear to be... let me know if I am wrong.

It's not a case of I Believe, So in reply and in a word NO i do NOT believe the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine. but this is contrast to yourself who seems to believe all the events in Ukraine are down to Russia.

The fact of the matter is both the EU and Russia are to blame, the tug of war with the pair over Ukraine as been going on for at least a decade or more. one minute Ukraine is leaning towards Russia then swings back towards Europe. and all we are witnessing is events coming to ahead.

The EU is not entirely to blame but it has a lot to answer for, Their - EU eastern partnership programme was always going to antagonise Russia, just look at the countries within that program. Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine all ex soviet states - the EU is playing in Russia's backyard. Ukraine within that group was seen as the jewel in the crown. But did people think Russia was just going to sit on its hands while the EU in its ill conceived expansion policy gobbled up its former states. NO was, and still is the answer. So the political elite in the EU must have analysed events and decided the risk versus reward was worth it, and now we are witnessing the fallout. They knew sticking their nose in the Hive, they were going to get more than a nose full of Honey.

What is clear Ukraine is not politically strong enough and throughout has been manipulated from both sides, Both the EU and Russia. The EU underestimated Russia's response. never had a coherent policy of what to do in the event Russian aggression. they failed on Ukrainian foreign and domestic policy, The EU failed to provide enough (bribe) money which allowed Russia to move in and offer more (bribe) money.

When the Ukrainian President suspended the signing of the EU association agreement, the EU should have bided their time because the possibility existed for Ukraine to sign the agreement in five years time (2019). in which time the EU could have consolidated its position bided its time, would have been in a stronger position politically and economically - currently with the Eurozone still recovering from recession and with growth forecast - the EU as got the timing all wrong. - in five years time Europe would have been in a strong position compared to Russia, currently and before this crisis the Russian economy was and, is hovering just above recession and likely to enter recession before the years end, - Its highly likely in five years time Russia would be just emerging from four years of recession - Putin would be in trouble domestically as his approval rating dropped, (due to recession) coupled with the fact Putins term in office would be coming to a end, 2018. The second chance for Ukraine to sign the agreement with the EU would be in 2019 a year after Putins gone. Russia would be weaker, a new leader and economy in turmoil or recovering from recession. Russia's influence and ability to react limited, So why not wait? time was on the EU's side and so were events. But No, the EU made a pigs ear out of it, and the use of sanctions against Russian in a time when europes economy isn't strong enough. in fact its getting weaker. If these sanctions backfire then trouble really is on the horizon.

It's A-Level politics.

[Guest]

You haven't actually read the Svoboda manifesto have you ***NO****.

You are fixated on anyone not agreeing with your point of view, as being neo - Nazis, or plain Nazi's.

You really take Godwinism to new extremes, and this makes your posts pretty irrelevant because they lack any factual basis, you do not independently research any of the "facts" you present (relying on extremely biased bloggers and quoting them verbatim) as I have had to point up your errors time and again.

Read the nice little Wiki description of them - they are as neo-nazi as it come - and it has nothing to do with my personal politics its an observation of the words they speak the origins in history and their actions.

That really is a sad retort Keith.

In February 2004, the arrival of Oleh Tyahnybok as party leader led a significant change in moderating the party's image.^[51] Then still the Social-National Party of Ukraine, it changed its name to the All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda",^[2] and abandoned the "I + N" ("Idea Natsii" Ukrainian "idea of a nation") Wolfsangel logo (a symbol popular among neo-Nazi groups)^[2][38] with a three-fingered hand reminiscent of the 'Tryzub' pro-independence gesture of the late 1980s.^[38] Svoboda also pushed neo-Nazi and other radical groups out the party,^[108] distancing itself from its neofascist past while retaining the support of extreme nationalists.^[51]

Olexiy Haran, a political science professor at the Kyiv-Mohyla Academy, says “There is a lot of misunderstanding surrounding Svoboda" and that the party is not fascist, but radical.^[109] Ihor Kolomoyskyi, president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine, stated in 2010 that the party has clearly shifted from the far-right to the center.^[110]

Political scientist Andreas Umland predicted the party would continue to become more moderate over time, and that "there's a belief that Svoboda will change, once in the Verkhovna Rada, and that they may become proper national democrats."^[53] Since then, the party has gained seats in parliament and has net over 10% of the national vote in the 2012 parliamentary elections. The US ambassador in Kiev, Geoffrey Pyatt, said in 2014 that he had been "positively impressed" by Svoboda's evolution in opposition and by its behavior in parliament. "They have demonstrated their democratic bona fides," the ambassador asserted.^[101] Alexander J. Motyl argues that Svoboda's brand of nationalism "has significantly diminished during, and possibly as a result of, the Euro Revolution."^[111]

http://en.wikipedia....olitical_party)

A party which has historically used a modified swastica and the name Social-nationalists (a reversed national socialist) has got to be considered highly suspect. It moderated its image to make itself more palatable but scratch the surface and there is still the stench of Nazi rising.

Newsnight investigated the fascistic elements of the new government:

Who is been wilfully ignorant here Keith ? your sort of excusing of these elements is a danger to us all.

Br Cornelius

Edited August 15, 2014 by Guest

[Helen of Annoy]

Be careful what you wish for, comrade commissar, for it may come true.

[keithisco]

Read the nice little Wiki description of them - they are as neo-nazi asd it come - and it has nothing bto do with my personal politics its an observation of the words they speak the origins in history and their actions.

That really is a sad retort Keith.

http://en.wikipedia....olitical_party)

A party which has historically used a modified swastica and the name Social-nationalists (a reversed national socialist) has got to be considered highly suspect. It moderated its image to make itself more palatable but scratch the surface and there is still the stench of Nazi rising.

Who is been wilfully ignorant here Keith ?

Br Cornelius

Once again you are revealing the paucity of your research to back up your personal position. The Swastika (revised or otherwise) is nothing to do with todays party (3 fingers is the emblem). The name Social - Nationalists has been extinct for years - and your constant reference to NAZI'sm is of course a Godwin fallacy because you mistakenly believe that everyone else is not willing to perform independent research beyond Wiki (which also does not support your claim that they are a Neo - Nazi Party by the way) and will simply accept your word for it. Sophistication in your posting is not one of your fortes Br, you simply regurgitate easily refuted sources.

Why are you even trying to turn the situation in Ukraine to be entirely about a Party that only won 1.16% of the Popular Vote. Shouldn't you really be focussing on the aspirations of the 98.84% of the people who did not vote for this party, the electorate that actually voted for the government???

You seriously need to get some true perspective on the situation otherwise it is YOU who is the "Puppet" of Russian expansionism, annointing Putin's feet and absolving him of all blame.

Edited August 15, 2014 by keithisco

[Guest]

Be careful what you wish for, comrade commissar, for it may come true.

It has come true - the facists are in substantial control of the Kiev Government. We can thank, at least in part, the EU and the US for that state of affairs.

Br Cornelius

[Guest]

Once again you are revealing the paucity of your research to back up your personal position. The Swastika (revised or otherwise) is nothing to do with todays party (3 fingers is the emblem). The name Social - Nationalists has been extinct for years - and your constant reference to NAZI'sm is of course a Godwin fallacy because you mistakenly believe that everyone else is not willing to perform independent research beyond Wiki (which also does not support your claim that they are a Neo - Nazi Party by the way) and will simply accept your word for it. Sophistication in your posting is not one of your fortes Br, you simply regurgitate easily refuted sources.

Why are you even trying to turn the situation in Ukraine to be entirely about a Party that only won 1.16% of the Popular Vote. Shouldn't you really be focussing on the aspirations of the 98.84% of the people who did not vote for this party, the electorate that actually voted for the government???

You seriously need to get some true perspective on the situation otherwise it is YOU who is the "Puppet" of Russian expansionism, annointing Putin's feet and absolving him of all blame.

What I am pointing out is that this ex-nazi party (as you would like to characturize them as) gained subnstantially more influence in kiev than their pausity of votes warrant. So they cleaned their public image up a bit, so did the NF in Britain before they eventually imploded. Didn't make then the good guys. Meanwhile Ukraine has taken a major lurch to the far-right and there will be very bad consequences as a result.

Stop throwing around Godwins law - I am pointing out the reality not making false accusations.

And Keith neither I or Steve have denied the dirty hands of Putins Russia, but the situation is as bad as it is because the West started pumping money into the country to encourage regime change. This could easily escalate into the next major European war and the EU will have to take its fair share of the blame.

Br Cornelius

Edited August 15, 2014 by Guest

[keithisco]

It's not a case of I Believe, So in reply and in a word NO i do NOT believe the EU is entirely responsible for all of the events in Ukraine. but this is contrast to yourself who seems to believe all the events in Ukraine are down to Russia.

The fact of the matter is both the EU and Russia are to blame, the tug of war with the pair over Ukraine as been going on for at least a decade or more. one minute Ukraine is leaning towards Russia then swings back towards Europe. and all we are witnessing is events coming to ahead.

The EU is not entirely to blame but it has a lot to answer for, Their - EU eastern partnership programme was always going to antagonise Russia, just look at the countries within that program. Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Republic of Moldova and Ukraine all ex soviet states - the EU is playing in Russia's backyard. Ukraine within that group was seen as the jewel in the crown. But did people think Russia was just going to sit on its hands while the EU in its ill conceived expansion policy gobbled up its former states. NO was, and still is the answer. So the political elite in the EU must have analysed events and decided the risk versus reward was worth it, and now we are witnessing the fallout. They knew sticking their nose in the Hive, they were going to get more than a nose full of Honey.

What is clear Ukraine is not politically strong enough and throughout has been manipulated from both sides, Both the EU and Russia. The EU underestimated Russia's response. never had a coherent policy of what to do in the event Russian aggression. they failed on Ukrainian foreign and domestic policy, The EU failed to provide enough (bribe) money which allowed Russia to move in and offer more (bribe) money.

When the Ukrainian President suspended the signing of the EU association agreement, the EU should have bided their time because the possibility existed for Ukraine to sign the agreement in five years time (2019). in which time the EU could have consolidated its position bided its time, would have been in a stronger position politically and economically - currently with the Eurozone still recovering from recession and with growth forecast - the EU as got the timing all wrong. - in five years time Europe would have been in a strong position compared to Russia, currently and before this crisis the Russian economy was and, is hovering just above recession and likely to enter recession before the years end, - Its highly likely in five years time Russia would be just emerging from four years of recession - Putin would be in trouble domestically as his approval rating dropped, (due to recession) coupled with the fact Putins term in office would be coming to a end, 2018. The second chance for Ukraine to sign the agreement with the EU would be in 2019 a year after Putins gone. Russia would be weaker, a new leader and economy in turmoil or recovering from recession. Russia's influence and ability to react limited, So why not wait? time was on the EU's side and so were events. But No, the EU made a pigs ear out of it, and the use of sanctions against Russian in a time when europes economy isn't strong enough. in fact its getting weaker. If these sanctions backfire then trouble really is on the horizon.

It's A-Level politics.

Simply stated Steve, the Ukraine is a Sovereign nation. If there is a popular uprising against a govt that fails to meet the electorate's expectations then that is their right.

If the PM on one day announces that he has come to a compromise with the opposition leaders (both Political and Popular) only to run away from his post the very next day then impeachment and removal from office is the obvious consequence.

End of the day it is very much an internal situation - no-one has to accept the EU's advances, no - one has to accept the Russian Federations advances, but it was, and remains historically true, that Ukraine wanted to re-assert it's position within the European sphere of influence. It was just 1 MAN that thought otherwise, and the Ukraine would never accept that situation again.

[Guest]

Simply stated Steve, the Ukraine is a Sovereign nation. If there is a popular uprising against a govt that fails to meet the electorate's expectations then that is their right.

If the PM on one day announces that he has come to a compromise with the opposition leaders (both Political and Popular) only to run away from his post the very next day then impeachment and removal from office is the obvious consequence.

End of the day it is very much an internal situation - no-one has to accept the EU's advances, no - one has to accept the Russian Federations advances, but it was, and remains historically true, that Ukraine wanted to re-assert it's position within the European sphere of influence. It was just 1 MAN that thought otherwise, and the Ukraine would never accept that situation again.

That would only be true if the West had not pumped money into achieving that outcome. This was not a spontaneous uprising - it was a carefully choreographed regime change.

Br Cornelius

[Helen of Annoy]

It has come true - the facists are in substantial control of the Kiev Government.

No, they’re not. They’re in fact under your bed. All of them. With swastikas.

I’m coming too, as soon as I find my armband.

We can thank, at least in part, the EU and the US for that state of affairs.

Br Cornelius

No, we can’t. We have Putin to thank for you, though.

You can move to Greater Russia soon and live under that grand bridge to Crimea he’ll most certainly build. If EU keeps its saintly patience and keeps buying Russian gas. Chinese won’t buy it for the same overblown price, you know.

[Helen of Annoy]

That would only be true if the West had not pumped money into achieving that outcome. This was not a spontaneous uprising - it was a carefully choreographed regime change.

Br Cornelius

If only the world was that easy to control... but what would you know about the world, especially our little dark corner of it.

[Guest]

If only the world was that easy to control... but what would you know about the world, especially our little dark corner of it.

i know you also have your own little problems with the far right, but I am sure you would deny that also.

Anythings better than Russia hey !

Br Cornelius

Edited August 15, 2014 by Guest

[keithisco]

What I am pointing out is that this ex-nazi party (as you would like to characturize them as) gained subnstantially more influence in kiev than their pausity of votes warrant. So they cleaned their public image up a bit, so did the NF in Britain before they eventually imploded. Didn't make then the good guys. Meanwhile Ukraine has taken a major lurch to the far-right and there will be very bad consequences as a result.

Stop throwing around Godwins law - I am pointing out the reality not making false accusations.

And Keith neither I or Steve have denied the dirty hands of Putins Russia, but the situation is as bad as it is because the West started pumping money into the country to encourage regime change. This could easily escalate into the next major European war and the EU will have to take its fair share of the blame.

Br Cornelius

Show me whenever in the history of Political Science did a nation voting 98.84% AGAINST a perceived Right Wing Party then result in an entire Sovereign Nation then "Lurching to the Extreme Right"? It is nonsense, it is not internally self - consistent with your argument, in fact it flies in the face of your biased pre-conceptions.

You have still not corrected your earlier, completely erroneous claim that Svoboda was in control of 5 Ministries in Ukraine - you simply looked at the word "Minister" and assumed that each name meant that they were in charge of Ministries - without external governance.

Every single one of your arguments is a "Straw Man" based on the use of Godwinism to support, unsupportable statements and arguments.

If you rely exclusively on using the terms "Fascist", "Nazi" and "Far Right" to characterise a Sovereign nation that has demonstrably voted against the implications of being governed by such people then you have nothing else to add to this thread. You views are certainly not worth my time arguing against because you are completely "closed off" from reasoned debate.