France and the EU Constitution...

[Mekorig]

nee...to the moent, just you, Blackleaf and one or another UK nationalistic simpatizer.

[Saru]

Agreed, could everyone please avoid the discriminatary comments as they are becoming very tiresome and are highly inapropriate.

[Tommy]

I always thought the EU prided itself on the greatness of its centralised welfare orientated policies, which was always in stark contrast to the US laissez-faire capitalist model. Two competing powers driven by differing ideologies.

I thought that the main reason the French voted against the constitution was that they thought it would be a shift towards this ‘Anglo-Saxon’ model we have, which they don’t really want. Our reasons for voting no being the opposite; we think that this constitution will take us closer to a Europe draining away our sovereign powers.

People are calling for a ‘British miracle’ to save the EU, but this can’t come if the EU is not willing to embrace our Anglo-Saxon model, and personally I think Europe is structurally too different to deal with this sort of change. What is needed is a fundamental reform if it is to take on a British model, but I’m sure this won’t happen.

In any case, what works for us won’t necessarily work for the rest of Europe.

Edited June 1, 2005 by Tommy

[Blackleaf]

WASHINGTON TIMES

May 31, 2005

Puzzling out the meaning of no

By Wesley Pruden

Bureaucrats, like the politicians they supervise, always have trouble with plain speech. Words of a single syllable often confuse, confound and befuddle.

Both bureaucrats and politicians across Europe are suffering

something awful this morning, trying to get their brains around the plainest of all single-syllable words.

"No" is a conversation stopper in any language. Now we'll see whether "no" can stop a constitution that a lot of voters, peasants and others regarded as the lesser breeds without the law, clearly and emphatically don't want.

France may or may not have turned its back on the idea of "Europe," as some have suggested in the panic of a shocking election night in Paris, but the French, masters of the subtle and the artfully obscure, have with a shout and a scream turned their back on the "Europe" devised and imposed by the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels who want to organize and supervise every waking moment of a citizen's life.

Jacques Chirac has been humiliated as only Jacques Chirac deserves to be humiliated. The man who perfected contempt for George W. Bush as a continental art form can only wish he had some of George W.'s skill at persuading his countrymen to follow. George W. won his "referendum," and Jacques didn't. Who's entitled to laugh now?

But the smashing of the European constitution holds meaning that goes well beyond humiliating a vain and arrogant politician. London's Daily Telegraph puts it succinctly this morning: "It is hard to think of a graver crisis of legitimacy for the EU. If even France, Europe's most loyal daughter, wants no more of the racket, then surely the time has come to go back to the drawing board. If Europe's leaders had an ounce - a gram, rather - of decency, they would accept the verdict and change direction. For this constitution did not merely propose some new extensions of EU power; it restated the entire acquis communautaire: the accumulated pile of EU jurisdiction."

But such is a vain hope, as the London skeptics know well.

Jean-Claude Juncker, the prime minister of Luxembourg, the current president-nation in the EU's rotating presidential scheme, is typical of the leaders who are unable to translate "no" into pidgin even they can understand. Nearly half of the EU's 454 million citizens, he scoffs, inaccurately, have backed the charter, and "the European process does not come to a halt today." But nearly all of that half, as M. Juncker knows, have never had a say, one way or the other. Their parliaments ratified the constitution, and M. Chirac spent the weekend

in considerable rue that he, in a fit of democratic excess, chose to put the vote in France to the people rather than to a vote of politicians in parliament.

Similar reaction, borne of inability to parse the meaning of "no," is the norm all across Europe. The prime minister of Estonia a says ratification of the constitution should continue if Europeans know what's good for them. The foreign minister of Latvia looked up the meaning of "no" and is eager to share it: "I think we should really look at these signals [the French] are sending us. I would strongly

urge our parliament to go ahead ... and vote this constitution through ... and hopefully it will open France's eyes that we need this constitution."

Wise men like M. Chirac would be more likely to prevail if they tried to open skeptical eyes with respectful argument rather than with a meat ax. Their task will be far more difficult now. The French want their cheeses, like the Germans their sausages, and they want to keep their six-week vacations, 35-hour work weeks and other appurtenances of an indolent socialist society, without having to work very hard in a world where a lot of people, not only in North America and Britain but all across Asia, are willing - eager, in fact - to work very hard.

"Anglo-Saxon" or not, free markets work, and socialism doesn't. M. Chirac, like the early European visionaries like Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman and the circle of current European leaders, understands this. But he despairs of making persuasion work. Hence the scheme to put all the power in the hands of unelected schemers who devised an absurd constitution that runs to hundreds and hundreds of pages, setting out who gets to cut the cheese and how thin the slices must be.

Such a "constitution" can only be imposed, and anyone with a taste for freedom and the self-respect freedom imparts, instinctively rebels. The European elites insist they admire Jefferson and our Founding Fathers, but they clearly do not understand what happens when Jefferson's ideas are unleashed.

The people always understand what the elites don't. Can 54.88 percent of 50 million Frenchmen be wrong?

Wesley Pruden is editor in chief of The Times.

[__Kratos__]

Just one big mess over there... and nobody really has the motivation to clean it all up.

[wunarmdscissor]

Change of direction ,but i have noticed all the time i have been a UM member i have never spoke or seen a French person on this Site

Any French memberes ?if so would be good to hear their side of the coin

there were a couple however they were scared of by some outrageous comments by a few particular members.

[wunarmdscissor]

And in many peoples voices all over Europe

its much more to do with frances economy dying an poor leadership by chirac than the french being anti-euro.

its being exagerrated by blackleaf by his incessant postings .

[wunarmdscissor]

surprise surprise ,

the sun , the telegraph , would we expect anything less?

[wunarmdscissor]

we get loads outta the european union , our rebate for one.

[Mr Ed]

blackleaf, you really have some issues with Europe.

[wunarmdscissor]

it isnt a big mess and blackleaf is being just a tad one sided.

[Mr Ed]

blackleaf, this constant barrage of stories on Europe is getting annoying.

[wunarmdscissor]

i agree.

personally i think the EU is a great idea, i dont personally beleiev wholly in the constitution however as someone said , if your not in it then you cant work it.

you see we WILL be left behind .

and if france is doing so badly, as you so gladly inform us and they are as utterly clueless as you portray, then why are you so happy to willingly follow them with a 'non'. should we say 'oui'?

[zandore]

What part of the word "NO" can't they understand?

[Tommy]

blackleaf, this constant barrage of stories on Europe is getting annoying.

651116[/snapback]

Yes, it is getting extremely tiring reading all these threads, which all say the same thing. I’m merging all these ‘French and the EU’ threads together. There is no point having over a dozen of them floating around, each for a related article posted.

Edited June 1, 2005 by Tommy

[Commander CMG]

Thank god for that.. I am not a lover of the French but I was beginning to see them on every discussion.

[warden]

Remember if Blackleaf has strong opinions and views on Europe and particilary France that is his right,isnt it up to yous to persued him of your points of view and hopefully sway him into the middle or onto your side

[Tommy]

By all means I wish to encourage debating and discussion on these issues, but all these stories are very similar in content and are better suited in one thread rather than clogging up the whole current affairs forum.

isnt it up to yous to persued him of your points of view and hopefully sway him into the middle or onto your side

Some people no matter how persuasively you argue will not change their opinions. I know I sometimes find it hard to accept certain arguments, but politics is all about these differences of opinion. Who can truly say who is wrong and who is right on such matters? The best you can do is to justify your arguments as best you can and try to determine how rational they are. IMO

[Erikl]

The EU is really hard to accomplish for several reasons:

A. Culturally there isn't such a thing as Europe. The only thing which unites all of Europe is Christianity. Yet many Europeans are atheists, or simply find religion unimportant or down right racist way to define identity.

B. One could point out that Europeans have managed to be united in the US into one nation - but one has to remember that what really happened was that 13 British colonies that took over the entire current US territory became target location for mass immigration - meaning that it's not much different than say from suddenly most of European immigrating into France.

C. the EU today could never survive the real world because it is protected by the US and NATO. So the current standard of living in the EU should not be confused with how EU citizens will live after they'll break out of the US umbrella (and that's bound to happen sometimes).

D. As opposed to Western Europe which is fed up of nationalism (the EU is a western european project after all), Eastern Europe just recived freedom and independence from the Soviet Union and so is pretty nationalistic.

[Tommy]

I think D in particular demonstrates the different speeds and direction Europe is traveling. This EU Constitution is trying to standardize Europe to a greater degree, but looking at these referendums Europe clearly does not want this.

[Mekorig]

But the integration path has begun...in one way or another, Europe will become a power block, like it the USA or some poor nationalsocialistic like Blackleaf or not.

[warden]

But the integration path has begun...in one way or another, Europe will become a power block, like it the USA or some poor nationalsocialistic like Blackleaf or not.

652146[/snapback]

You cant stand his posts but you still cant keep him out of petty comments,i think blackleaf has succeeded in what he was trying to do

[Mekorig]

neee....its just that Blackleaf make me laught...its soo alike to some nationalistic rednecks we have in argentina. "insert country name" is great, the rest of the world, especially "insert country name" is "insert despevtive comment" .

[blablaz]

hi im french and I said yes, but some dumb frenchs said no because they thought the question was "are you happy with the money you get? do you like chirac?"... we should have done like other countries: parlement referendum... btw we are not at all anti euro, we love euro (at least me) I love the eurogirls

Edited June 6, 2005 by blablaz

[Blackleaf]

International Focus - 6/9/05

Requesting a French plumber to turn up on time is like asking an Italian to eat spaghetti with chopsticks – you’ll get the same look of bewildered confusion. Never mind the ever-flushing toilet or the leaking pipes, you will have to wait at home for days until the plumber deigns to answer your pleas for immediate assistance. Pressure him, and he will accuse you of trying to impose “your Anglo-Saxon values.”

The French worker suffers from a reluctance to perform hard work, combined with a conviction that French “civilization” is superior to any other. This was clearly reflected in the decisive rejection of the proposed new constitution for Europe. In spite of an energetic government propaganda campaign and personal pleas from President Chirac, the French were unwilling to go along with increased centralization of Europe and the implied weakening of French independence and culture.

One of the great fears raised by opposition to the new constitution was the specter of the “Polish Plumber” who would arrive on time, work better than a French plumber, and charge half the price. With the enlargement of the European Union to cover many former Soviet bloc countries has come an influx of cheap labor into France and other rich Western European countries. The French are most unhappy about it. And, looking at their high unemployment rate (over 10.2 per cent), who can blame them for being worried about their future?

But they only have themselves to blame. Strong unions have forced through legislation reducing the official work week to 35 hours and they are entitled to a legal minimum of five weeks paid vacation in addition to 11 public holidays. On average, a French worker works 339 hours less per year than an American worker. On average, they retire before the age of 60 with a pension that can be as high as two thirds of their final salary. It is no wonder that other Europeans are now able to produce goods and services far cheaper than can the French and that French factories are closing in the face of competition from imports.

Consider the case of my barber. For the seven years that I lived in France, each time he cut my hair he complained that it was unfair that he could not retire until 57. “I started work at 17 whereas others have only worked from the age of 21 or 22. Why should I have to work 40 years?” His lack of enthusiasm for working is reflected in a book Bonjour paresse (Hello Laziness), subtitled About the art and the necessity of doing the strict minimum for your company.

The French are not inherently lazy, but have been made so by heavy doses of socialism and punitive tax rates. Tax rates are so high on earned income and welfare benefits are also high. When workers look at their net pay check and compare that with what they can make by doing nothing, the cost of not working is low. But who will pay for these welfare benefits in the future?

France is aging rapidly and every year there will be fewer in the active working population supporting an ever increasing percentage of retired. By 2030 the population aged 65 and over will rise to 39.1 per cent. Adding the population aged 0-14, 68 per cent of the population will be supported by the remaining 32 per cent.

Already France is one of the more heavily taxed countries and employers are extremely reluctant to create new jobs because of the high social taxes the have to pay (80-90 per cent in addition to the employee’s salary) and the difficulty of downsizing in the event of a downturn. If you think that our own social security system may have problems in 20 to 30 years, just image the French problem that is not nearly so far away.

A number of French unions have blamed the eastern expansion of the EU for job losses, believing French workers are losing out to the low wage economies of the new EU member states, such as Poland and the Czech Republic. But the French unions themselves have contributed to the mess. Public sector workers such as firemen, police, teachers and doctors regularly go out on strike. And strikers not only strike against their own employers but often undertake industrial action “in sympathy” with other strikers. Just imagine the reaction in this country if truckers were to bring the highway system to a complete stop by blocking Interstate entrance and exit ramps, with the police standing by doing nothing.

The results of the referendum on the Constitution show that most French resent domination by Brussels, and now they have put a spanner in the works of the European Union. I hope that they are prepared to live with the consequences. VT

— Peter Leslie is a former CFO of the United Nations Development Program, now living in Vail. His comments on UN issues are on the web site of the Foreign Policy Association and his column appears periodically in The Vail Trail.

www.vailtrail.com . . .