Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * * * 1 votes

Bradley Manning court testimony leaked


  • Please log in to reply
108 replies to this topic

#61    Stellar

Stellar

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 14,887 posts
  • Joined:27 Apr 2004
  • Gender:Male

  • The objective of war is not to die for your country. It's to make the other son of a b**** die for his!
    -Patton

Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:21 PM

View Postregeneratia, on 20 March 2013 - 08:01 PM, said:

Quite honestly, that era is emotionally super-charged for me. To avoid bad feelings, I generally do not like to think about it at all,  unless it is to prevent it from ever happening again. I don 't mean warring to stop it. I mean literally preventing it from happening. It could easily have been prevented and wasn't. Why wasn't it prevented?

We have different perspectives on this. I think prevention, preventing it from happening. You imply stopping it after it happens. I like to think about nipping these things in the bud. You imply that you deal with it after it has blossomed and is seeded in fertile soil.

But again, I have one line of typing from you to assess your thinking. Thus I leave room for my being inaccurate in what I connote from your one line.

Well, it wasn't prevented because Europe didn't want to risk going to war. It didn't work out that way too.

Now, if something is preventable then yes, prevent it --- but sometimes, things aren't preventable, or what people/countries thought was the safest course of action didn't end up working out. At that point, you have no other choice but to deal with the situation that has arose. That's what happened with WWII. Regardless of whether in hindsight WWII could have been prevented, once Hitler started WWII, the only option was to either sit back and be conquered, or fight him. Did they make the wrong choice by fighting him, according to you?

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

----Seraphina

#62    Babe Ruth

Babe Ruth

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,678 posts
  • Joined:23 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:27North 80West

Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:39 PM

View PostBama13, on 20 March 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

So you think, back in May of 1944, the American people should have been told that we were going to invade Europe at Normandy on the 5th/6th of June? Sometimes they are secrets because letting We The People know equates to letting Them The Enemy know also.

Keep in mind that in WWII we were involved in a war declared in accordance with Constitutional provisions.

In Iraq and Afghanistan, we are involved in 2 cases of military aggression, illegal under international law.


#63    Babe Ruth

Babe Ruth

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,678 posts
  • Joined:23 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:27North 80West

Posted 20 March 2013 - 08:45 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 19 March 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

I've actually never said anything about that video. Exposing it was actually a commendable action. That video clearly shows enough for a Whistleblower to expose it. If Manning had sent it to just about any US citizen, I'd have zero problem with it, but he sent it to a foreign national. So, in that case, it was a crime. Otherwise I specifically have not commented on that video because it is a weak point in my end of the debate.

If Manning had stopped there, there would be no issue really. And if he had continued to send out glaringly obvious military errors/crimes, that would have been in his favor too. But he did not. He started to just grab whatever he could, copy it to a DVD and then send it out unread. Those are not the actions of a crime fighter, but the actions of a spy.


When I was reading about the Pentagon Papers it was McNamara who wanted a history of the Vietnam War with all the details, created so that Historians would record it right. His intent was to eventually give it to his friends among the Kennedys and at the Rand Corporation. Which would inevitibly end up in public publication. It was in a packet labeled Secret, but according to what I read it was not actually a high level classification.


http://en.wikipedia....Pentagon_Papers

MacNamara's autobiography "Fog Of War" was most interesting.  I'll bet my last dollar that the papers released by Ellsberg would NEVER have been included in his little memento for historians and the Kennedy's.  We will never know.

Again, your failure to have actually read Manning's recent statement to the court puts you at a disadvantage in this discussion.  It turns out that Manning ATTEMPTED to release his material to Washington Post, but they were not interested.  Further, WikiLeaks is very much an international organization.  Your point there is absurd.  You and Barack make this out to be an espionage case, and that is completely wrong.

Considering that you and I both took the same oath--to protect and defend the USC from enemies both foreign and domestic--you're in a real pickle here, having to defend the actions of a government committing blatant criminal acts.  I do not envy you.


#64    regeneratia

regeneratia

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,379 posts
  • Joined:20 Jun 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:All my posts are my own views, my own perceptions. Will not be finding links for why I think the way I do.

  • It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:08 PM

I think Europe wanted to prevent the rise of HItler. But there were powerful world factions that supported Hitlet. I think these factions should be eliminated from world events, ... completely,... entirely,... and forever.


View PostStellar, on 20 March 2013 - 08:21 PM, said:

Well, it wasn't prevented because Europe didn't want to risk going to war. It didn't work out that way too.

Now, if something is preventable then yes, prevent it --- but sometimes, things aren't preventable, or what people/countries thought was the safest course of action didn't end up working out. At that point, you have no other choice but to deal with the situation that has arose. That's what happened with WWII. Regardless of whether in hindsight WWII could have been prevented, once Hitler started WWII, the only option was to either sit back and be conquered, or fight him. Did they make the wrong choice by fighting him, according to you?


Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#65    regeneratia

regeneratia

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,379 posts
  • Joined:20 Jun 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:All my posts are my own views, my own perceptions. Will not be finding links for why I think the way I do.

  • It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 20 March 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Keep in mind that in WWII we were involved in a war declared in accordance with Constitutional provisions.

In Iraq and Afghanistan, we are involved in 2 cases of military aggression, illegal under international law.

Meanwhile, we recently learned that Pearl Harbor lost lives could have been prevented. The public should have been informed about the threat and allowed to react accordingly.

Edited by regeneratia, 20 March 2013 - 09:10 PM.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#66    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 19,557 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 20 March 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

MacNamara's autobiography "Fog Of War" was most interesting.  I'll bet my last dollar that the papers released by Ellsberg would NEVER have been included in his little memento for historians and the Kennedy's.  We will never know.

Again, your failure to have actually read Manning's recent statement to the court puts you at a disadvantage in this discussion.  It turns out that Manning ATTEMPTED to release his material to Washington Post, but they were not interested.  Further, WikiLeaks is very much an international organization.  Your point there is absurd.  You and Barack make this out to be an espionage case, and that is completely wrong.

Considering that you and I both took the same oath--to protect and defend the USC from enemies both foreign and domestic--you're in a real pickle here, having to defend the actions of a government committing blatant criminal acts.  I do not envy you.
The only thing I've defended is the Right of the Government to keep secret documents that are of a damaging nature to our (non-criminal) interests. I've never defended a single criminal action. You on the other hand are defending an admitted criminal who has confessed to several crimes already. You are simply claiming that the Higher Ideals are more important then any national or military laws. That is not the Rule of Law, that is anarchy. The classic modern use of term Rule of Law is... No one is above the law. It does not mean... Only the US Constitution matters.

Thus, making a special case for Manning actually BREAKS the Rule of Law, as he would be getting special treatment outside the law. Thus, suggesting that Manning IS ABOVE THE LAW, because he was exposing some other crime.

Edited by DieChecker, 20 March 2013 - 09:18 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#67    AsteroidX

AsteroidX

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,570 posts
  • Joined:16 Dec 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Free America

  • it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security

Posted 20 March 2013 - 09:46 PM

Many Whistleblowers are going to prison these days while the crooks walk free. Thats the point. And its one not well received.



Edited by AsteroidX, 20 March 2013 - 09:47 PM.


#68    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 19,557 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 21 March 2013 - 02:34 AM

View PostAsteroidX, on 20 March 2013 - 09:46 PM, said:

Many Whistleblowers are going to prison these days while the crooks walk free. Thats the point. And its one not well received.
Probably people who want to blow the Whistle, need to study the Whistleblower Law before the blow the Whistle.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#69    Babe Ruth

Babe Ruth

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,678 posts
  • Joined:23 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:27North 80West

Posted 21 March 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 20 March 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

The only thing I've defended is the Right of the Government to keep secret documents that are of a damaging nature to our (non-criminal) interests. I've never defended a single criminal action. You on the other hand are defending an admitted criminal who has confessed to several crimes already. You are simply claiming that the Higher Ideals are more important then any national or military laws. That is not the Rule of Law, that is anarchy. The classic modern use of term Rule of Law is... No one is above the law. It does not mean... Only the US Constitution matters.

Thus, making a special case for Manning actually BREAKS the Rule of Law, as he would be getting special treatment outside the law. Thus, suggesting that Manning IS ABOVE THE LAW, because he was exposing some other crime.

I completely agree that the government has the right, and duty, to keep certain things secret, especially during war.  No problem with that.  But we are not at war, AND government greatly abuses that right.  Reynolds v. U.S. is perhaps the most notorious and well documented example of government abusing that right, brazenly lying to the court and the public when it was not necessary.  There are many thousands of examples of that.

Indeed, the documents released by Manning demonstrated that principle IN SPADES.  The "classified" material was ridiculous.  No need for that silliness to be classified, and that was pretty much the point of Robert Gates' comments on the Manning case.

In many attempts now, you have not been able to answer my simple question: Since when has it become a crime to expose the crimes of government?  That is, how can it be wrong or illegal to expose government crimes?

As we both know DC, an honest answer to those questions means Manning should be decorated, not tortured and imprisoned.

Sad to say, our government has become the wicked evil empire that we used to call Russia and China and others.  It's very sad.


#70    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 19,557 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:48 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 21 March 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

In many attempts now, you have not been able to answer my simple question: Since when has it become a crime to expose the crimes of government?  That is, how can it be wrong or illegal to expose government crimes?
It is wrong because... It is illegal. Simple. It may be heroic to expose miltary crimes, but if it is illegal be prepared to do the Time that comes with exposure of the crime.

Quote

As we both know DC, an honest answer to those questions means Manning should be decorated, not tortured and imprisoned.

Sad to say, our government has become the wicked evil empire that we used to call Russia and China and others.  It's very sad.
I say we punish the various military criminals. But, Manning did not just publish documents that showed military or government crimes, now did he? What percentage of those documents showed criminal actions? 1%, 3%, 50%??? The answer is that it is a tremendously small number compared to what was stolen. That is that actions of a criminal, not someone interested in exposing crimes.

I've posted over and over that there is no way Manning could have read all those documents, so he had no way to know what he was sending out.

Edited by DieChecker, 04 June 2013 - 09:54 PM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#71    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 19,557 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 04 June 2013 - 09:52 PM

The Trial of Bradley Manning has begun...

http://www.cbsnews.c...rosecutor-says/

Quote

Manning, 25, has admitted turning over hundreds of thousands of documents to the anti-secrecy website WikiLeaks, pleading guilty earlier this year to charges that could bring 20 years behind bars. But the military pressed ahead with a court-martial on more serious charges, including aiding the enemy, which carries a potential life sentence.

Prosecutors said they will present evidence that bin Laden requested and obtained from another al Qaeda member Afghanistan battlefield reports and State Department cables published by WikiLeaks.

"This is a case about a soldier who systematically harvested hundreds of thousands of documents from classified databases and then dumped that information onto the Internet into the hands of the enemy," prosecutor Capt. Joe Morrow said.

Quote

Manning's lawyers countered by arguing that he was a "young, naive but good-intentioned" soldier whose struggle to fit in as a gay man in the military made him feel he "needed to do something to make a difference in this world."

I think the military must have some evidence that is conclusive, otherwise they would have taken the 20 year guilty plea from earlier in the year and locked Manning up in Leavenworth.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#72    Babe Ruth

Babe Ruth

    Non-Corporeal Being

  • Member
  • 8,678 posts
  • Joined:23 Dec 2011
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:27North 80West

Posted 05 June 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 04 June 2013 - 09:48 PM, said:

It is wrong because... It is illegal. Simple. It may be heroic to expose miltary crimes, but if it is illegal be prepared to do the Time that comes with exposure of the crime.


I say we punish the various military criminals. But, Manning did not just publish documents that showed military or government crimes, now did he? What percentage of those documents showed criminal actions? 1%, 3%, 50%??? The answer is that it is a tremendously small number compared to what was stolen. That is that actions of a criminal, not someone interested in exposing crimes.

I've posted over and over that there is no way Manning could have read all those documents, so he had no way to know what he was sending out.

Your first claim--wrong because it's illegal--is incorrect.

But one example in US history is the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.  That made it illegal to assist a slave in escaping from slavery.

Illegal, but wrong?  No, not wrong.

With tortured reasoning like that, it's no wonder you don't understand what's at stake with Manning.


#73    Thanato

Thanato

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 4,256 posts
  • Joined:27 Jun 2004

Posted 05 June 2013 - 03:58 PM

I hope he has a comfy jail cell.

The man betrayed his position in the military.

"Your toast has been burnt, and no amount of scrapping will remove the black parts!" ~Caboose

"I will eat your unhappyness!" ~Caboose

****
"Freedom isn't bought in stores, it is bought on battlefields." ~Thanato
****

#74    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 19,557 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:00 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 05 June 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

Your first claim--wrong because it's illegal--is incorrect.

But one example in US history is the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850.  That made it illegal to assist a slave in escaping from slavery.

Illegal, but wrong?  No, not wrong.

With tortured reasoning like that, it's no wonder you don't understand what's at stake with Manning.
Well, I will admit that if ALL Manning did was expose criminal activity, they he would be a hero. But the FACT is that he sent out stuff that he had not screened, and had no idea what it was.

If you help an old lady across the street, that is honorable and to be commended, but even if you help that old lady across the street 20 times, if you push her into traffic even once, you are still a criminal. The "good" Manning did does not Automatically overide all the stupid he also did. And being stupid is no excuse as far as the Law is concerned.

One thing at stake with Manning is that every idiot with a grudge against the military will be able to cut and paste basically whatever they want and send it where ever they want. Which is no way to run a military or government.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#75    Thanato

Thanato

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 4,256 posts
  • Joined:27 Jun 2004

Posted 06 June 2013 - 02:27 AM

View Postregeneratia, on 20 March 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

I think Europe wanted to prevent the rise of HItler. But there were powerful world factions that supported Hitlet. I think these factions should be eliminated from world events, ... completely,... entirely,... and forever.

Hitler was brought to power because he was a great public speaker. He was a brilliant Politician. He was able to convince nearly an entire population of a country that all their problems where not their fault but the fault of a specific group of people. He managed to brain wash the population of Germany in the 1930's. He turned Germany from one of the poorest nations into one of the richest nations in a matter of years during the great Depression. If it wasn't for the whole holocaust thing, and the second world war. He could of gone down as one of the greatest leaders in modern history. Luckily brave men and women where ready to do terrible things to stop him.

Now back on topic, I really hope that this man spends the majority of his life behind bars. A lot of you civilian's think that what he did wasn't that bad at all. From a military perspective what he did was put men and women's lives in harms way. Had he leaked just the Apache Video, or other evidence of illegal activity I can see showing him mercy. But what he did was leak hundreds of thousands of protected and classified files. Because he did it with out any care or worry for those in harms way that is why I believe he needs to be made an example of.

~Thanato

"Your toast has been burnt, and no amount of scrapping will remove the black parts!" ~Caboose

"I will eat your unhappyness!" ~Caboose

****
"Freedom isn't bought in stores, it is bought on battlefields." ~Thanato
****




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users