karmakazi, on 02 July 2012 - 03:46 PM, said:
I did not mean that our incapability to communicate made us different from other species, as far as we know, there is no species that can effectively communicate with a different species.
What I meant was, because we cannot communicate with other species, we assume ourselves to be unique. They cannot tell us otherwise.
Yes. Their OWN belief systems. That was my point.
I said truth, not proof. There's a difference, especially in spiritual matters. Truth is something that is ultimately elusive because of the human condition, which is why anyone who believes they know truth is harmed by that belief - it is a falsehood.
Jumping to conclusions? Just because I don't have a specific belief in who or what god is does not mean I'm an atheist. I prefer to allow whatever is out there to reveal itself to me as it deems fit, not chase after a story written by someone else about their own personal experience.
Therein lies one of my biggest problems with belief. Just because you have spiritual experiences does not mean the source of those experiences fits in the nice neat little package of a belief system. Hence the reason I said belief closes people off from the truth.
None of us knows what is out there. A belief is the assertion that you do know what is out there. That is a delusion whether you like it, or not.
Incidentally, I have been clinically depressed off and on throughout my life. A pill isn't a magic fix and I've never taken depression medication. Instead, I've worked through my feelings by writing about them until I work through them. It's very effective and it has really improved my ability to cope and interact with other people. There are studies that show that exercising regularly may be as effective as anti-depressants. Between journalling and exercise, there are two ways a person can help themselves rather than relying on magic pills.
That's what I'm talking about... doing the work to aleviate one's own suffering rather than taking a dodge.
Coping is simply a method of aleviating suffering. Instead of avoiding it, you push through it to the other side and that is the only way to genuinely put the suffering behind you.
I am talking about people I have known all of my life, inside and out, and the other people I've met who have very, very similar personalities and beliefs.
Here's an example. If you walked into a home where the person had boxes and garbage piled floor to ceiling with barely any room to walk, or a middle aged woman's house that was chock full of dolls or stuffed animals, would that seem healthy to you? Would you look at it and think "Nope, this person is not suffering." ?
There is something that happens in the mind that causes a person to do those things, something that most people agree isn't natural or healthy, and usually happens after tragedy that the person never fully copes with. I'm talking about that exact same personality type, which instead of (or in addition to) hoarding turns to religion.
What makes you think I want to deny them? I was merely pointing out something that I have observed. Everyone has the right to believe what they want to believe. This isn't me laying down laws of how to live, I am discussing observations I've made that relate to the overal context of the thread. A discussion doesn't force or deny anyone the right to anything.
Furthermore, in reference to my example above, if someone is living in a hoarded house, the people who care about them recognize that it is not safe for them or healthy for them to avoid coping. The same is true of anyone who avoids coping. It degrades a person's ability to interact with others, to really live their lives, to even experience spiritual joy.
Not coping with something prolongs the pain... a placebo only masks the pain.
Think whatever you like, but understand that this has nothing to do with my own fears and prejudices.
Or because they are afraid not to... punishment for turning away is usually ultimate.
Yet a person who is not stupid is likely to give up their own sensibilities in order to be a part of something. Scientific study has observed this effect, it's called groupthink.
I am suggesting that as human beings the great answers are too great for us to comprehend. Therefore we should practice faith rather than belief.
I'm suggesting that forgiveness comes from within first, not from without.
I'm suggesting that belonging is awesome, only if you belong because you're being true to yourself rather than liking or believing or buying or saying something because it will make you appear to belong. This is something many people do (dare I say most?) even if you can't see it.
Ok with each response I am coming to understand your world view a little better. I agree, in part withyour first two points but our science allows us to understand our own neurological and linguistic capabilities, and also to look at those of all other life forms. We can see and understand ourselves and other life forms and we CAN ascertain the differences .
Third point. i was asking a question. If you dont/cant KNOW that god does not exist, then your position is a belief, same as a believers; and formed on the same basis and using simliar logic and rationales. You are absolutley wrong in regards to belief in saying that believe something as truth is harmful All the evidences and statistics illustrate otherwise. If a physical truth is unknowable then any belief about it which is productive is a good belief. Thats WHY human form and hold beliefs. It is beneficial and productive to do so, irrespective of any unknowable truth.
An assertion is not a delusion it is just an assertion. If i argue that gravity is not a universal constant, then there is nothing delusional about that belief position.
As i suspected you believe in personal effort to overcome personall problems. Very commendable and yes rational. But you are wrong to argue that because this works for you it is the BEST method. There is nothing wrong (and a lot of logic) in acieveng exactly yht e same results withnothing more than a change in mindset.
I can see why you might be upset, having worked so hard, if i told you, truthfully, that you could achieve the same results just by mental discipline or by a belief system. You see that as cheating or a weakness. I see it as a highly effective/efficient evolved abilty of humans to cope with many of the problems our self aware ness creates within us, such as our own inevitable mortality and abilty to grieve ..
I dont have much sympathy for martrys especially those who believe al others should also martyr them selves There is nothing wrong with coping while the grief cycle progresses Education in the stages of grief is essential but amny humas are rendered incapable for a time by the process of grief This is neither natural nor necessary Grief is a state of mind produced by the level of our self aware spaience It can be manipulated and controled through that same self aware process. it is natural to grieve but not productive to grieve to a point where one is incapable or suicidal.
. I understand your points about pain and coping, but i repeat. Do you think pain and suffering should be accepted as a part of the natural human condition and why? If so, do you refuse to take pain killers etc.
Sure one can learn to cope wit excruciating toothache but we gave up having to 150 years ago. Why should we see psychological pain and suffering as any different from, or inevitable than, physical pain in our lives. We must recognise its purpose and consequences but we do not have to cope with it or endure it any more than we do with physicl apain There are many ways to cope and reduce pain one of the best known to mankind is faith /belief. It even considerably reduces the degree of physical pain a person experiences and strongly enhances psychological coping.
I think i must be missing something you are trying to explain, because i dont get your separation of faith /belief and religion. Religion is just a way humans codify their own spiritual beliefs and faiths. They may create their own or connect to one which appeals to them. It is the belief and faith which performs the healing, more than the religion, although social aspects of religion such as a community of supporters also helps.
Not coping with something prolongs the pain... a placebo only masks the pain.
I dont get this as part of your argument unless you honestly see pain as a good and neceesaary part of the human condition. Humans heal naturally but often need professional help to do so. Such professional help has only been effectively available in the last two centuries for physical pain and in the last century for psychologial pain. There is no need for pain in a modernTlife true coping allieveates pain and so do placebos Belief and faith do the same They also integrate a person into a more healthy and productive relationship with others and with their their environment bleifs have helped humans cope and reduce pain and suffering since we became self aware
I suspect you dont like/appreciate the use of faith and belief to cope. Fair enough dont use it for yourself, although i think that makes you a mug like someone who wont use painkillers when needed because they dont believe in them. BUT dont tell others or suggest, that it is cheating, unfair, dangerous, or counter productive. Both history and modern science proves that faith and belief is highly beneficial to human beings.
There is no evidence that the reasons for belief influence its outcomes. If the belief is genuine it will produce positive outcomes.
I disagree with you about why people believe, based on reading material on the construction of human belief. I accept that there are many motivators for belief, but basically belief endures BECAUSE it works. We ALL live our life around a set of inner beliefs. Our moralities, ethics, even love and hate, are belief sets which determine our behaviours.
You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.
With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.
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