847 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Llychlyn:
Fabulous or infernal region beneath the waves in such early Welsh texts as Breuddwyd Rhonabwy [The Dream of Rhonabwy]. Like the Irish cognate Lochlainn [..or 'Lochlann'..], Llychlyn comes also to mean Scandinavia, its definition in contemporary Modern Welsh.

http://www.answers.com/topic/llychlyn
http://www.answers.c...pic/lochlainn-1

So, initially Lochlann/Llychlyn was the name for a region beneath the waves, but later it became the name for Scandinavia.

Maybe because the Vikings came from the same direction (let's say, the north-east as seen from Ireland) as where once the original Lochlann/Llychlyn was located?

Now, if the Doggerlanders would have wanted to sail to ancient Ireland, then they would have to go north, pass by Scotland, and then go south again to reach Ireland, and so apparently coming from the north or north-east in the eyes of the people inhabiting ancient Ireland.

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Edited by Abramelin, 16 March 2010 - 02:25 PM.

[SlimJim22]

Very interesting Abe, from your map above I was starting to strongly consider Doggerland et al as a possibility. If the tectonic shift claim is in accurate then it would make a lot of sense. I love Tolkien and I think he hit upon some dynamite stuff, perhaps even from ancient memories.

I am just learning about dna but am way off the pace. The thing that jumps out as signifcant to me is the few elements of high or megalithic culture that can be found. The best example imo being New Grange but Stonehenge also suggests something was going on back then. I'm not saying aliens or anything but just much more advanced than we would expect.

I saw a doc a while back and it focussed on the inhabitants of the Brittish Isles and the main groups were the Picts, the Bretons and those who spoke gaelic. Are they Gauls like the Celts. I really like De Vere's take on all this because tha assumes that all Europe and much of Asia shared common elements of culture. These are largely the things that have been passed down through folklore. Yes it is about the Elfin or elves so maybe Tolkien was on to something after all even if he didn't know it.

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 16 March 2010 - 02:32 PM, said:

Very interesting Abe, from your map above I was starting to strongly consider Doggerland et al as a possibility. If the tectonic shift claim is in accurate then it would make a lot of sense. I love Tolkien and I think he hit upon some dynamite stuff, perhaps even from ancient memories.

I am just learning about dna but am way off the pace. The thing that jumps out as signifcant to me is the few elements of high or megalithic culture that can be found. The best example imo being New Grange but Stonehenge also suggests something was going on back then. I'm not saying aliens or anything but just much more advanced than we would expect.

I saw a doc a while back and it focussed on the inhabitants of the Brittish Isles and the main groups were the Picts, the Bretons and those who spoke gaelic. Are they Gauls like the Celts. I really like De Vere's take on all this because tha assumes that all Europe and much of Asia shared common elements of culture. These are largely the things that have been passed down through folklore. Yes it is about the Elfin or elves so maybe Tolkien was on to something after all even if he didn't know it.

> "Very interesting Abe, from your map above I was starting to strongly consider Doggerland et al as a possibility. If the tectonic shift claim is in accurate then it would make a lot of sense. I love Tolkien and I think he hit upon some dynamite stuff, perhaps even from ancient memories."

Doggerland is certainly a possibility, and not just because of the map, but because - based on scientific finds - Doggerland must have been a post-ice-age Eden, and very possibly the homeland for many modern Europeans.

The map depicts Europe during the Last Glacial Maximum, and that would mean that everything above the line from Ireland/South-England/Holland/northern Germany would be covered with an ice sheet with a huge glacial lake in what is the southern part of the present North Sea.

Doggerland was an area above sea level, dating from around 11,000 BP  to 8100 BP , and during that period the map in my former post would have to be different (see earlier posst in this thread, depicting Doggerland long after the Last Glacial Maximum).

-

What you mean with 'tectonic shift' ? You mean the 'isostatic rebound' that occurred after the ice sheets covering North Western Euorope disappeared?

-

I quoted Tolkien, not just because he talks about his dreams of some giant wave, but also because he said it was a silent wave. So, not accompanied with erupting volcanoes and violent earthquakes, details that belong to Plato's story about the destruction of Atlantis.  And that makes me very glad, LOL.



> "I am just learning about dna but am way off the pace. The thing that jumps out as signifcant to me is the few elements of high or megalithic culture that can be found. The best example imo being New Grange but Stonehenge also suggests something was going on back then. I'm not saying aliens or anything but just much more advanced than we would expect."

I don't think you will have to worry about being way of pace concerning DNA/genetics,  the DNA-based migration theories change about every year because of new finds (see one of my former posts on this page of the thread).

The New Grange and Stonehenge structures were built long after Doggerland was gone, but from the Stonehenge area artifacts were found dating from 7000 BP (or BC? lemme check). Anyway, these structures didn't get built overnight, and it may have been that the culture(s) responsible for these structures occupied the area way earlier.


> "I saw a doc a while back and it focussed on the inhabitants of the Brittish Isles and the main groups were the Picts, the Bretons and those who spoke gaelic. Are they Gauls like the Celts. I really like De Vere's take on all this because tha assumes that all Europe and much of Asia shared common elements of culture. These are largely the things that have been passed down through folklore. Yes it is about the Elfin or elves so maybe Tolkien was on to something after all even if he didn't know it."

I didn't see that documentary, but the culture that was spread out from England, over Doggerland, to the eastern Baltic and Asia is called the Maglemosian (after the end of the last ice age), and very probably the language was related to proto/pre-Uralic/Finno_Ugric. Maybe one of Tolkien's invented languages?? lol.

And the Picts (the original ones, not the later Celticised variety) were an interesting group of people, and maybe directly related to the Doggerlanders.

=============


Something about Lochlan, where it may have been located, and who it's inhabitants were:


THE DEAN OF LISMORE'S BOOK

A SELECTION OF ANCIENT GAELIC POETRY FROM A MANUSCRIPT COLLECTION MADE BY SIR JAMES MCGREGOR, DEAN OF LISMORE, IN THE BEGINNING OF THE SIXTEENTH CENTURY.

EDITED WITH A TRANSLATION AND NOTES BY THE REV. THOMAS M'LAUCHLAN AND AN INTRODUCTION AND ADDITIONAL NOTES BY WILLIAM F. SKENE ESQ.

EDINBURGH
EDMONSTON AND DOUGLAS

1862.





Lochlan was the north of Germany, extending from
the Rhine to the Elbe ; l and the name of Lochlanach
was originally applied to the ancient traditionary pirates
termed the Fomorians. When the Norwegian and Dan-
ish pirates appeared in the ninth century, they were like-
wise called Lochlanach ; and the name of Lochlan was
transferred to Norway and Denmark, from whence they
came. There is every reason to believe that the Low
German race were preceded, in the more ancient Lochlan,
by a Celtic people.

The Feinne then belonged to the pre-Milesian races,
and were connected, not only with Erin, but likewise
with Alban, Breatan, and Lochlan. Now, there are just
two people mentioned in the Irish records who had
settlements in Ireland, and who yet were connected with
Alban, Breatan, and Lochlan. These were the people
termed the Tuatha De Danann, and the Cruithne.

The traditionary migration of the Tuatha De Danann
brings them from Lochlan, where they possessed four
cities, to Alban, where they inhabited a district termed
Dobhar and Jr Dobhar; and from thence they went to
Erin, where they drove out the Firbolg, to be subdued
in their turn by the Milesian Scots.

The Cruithne are likewise brought from Lochlan to
Erin and from Erin to Alban, where they founded a king-
dom, which included, till the seventh century, the Cruithne
of Ulster, and which was subverted in the ninth century
by the Milesian Scots.

These two tribes were thus the prior race in each
country. Both must have been prior to the Low German
population of Lochlan. The Cruithne were the race
prior to the Scots in Alban, and the Tuatha de Dannan the
prior colony to the Milesian Scots in Erin. The Feinne
are brought by all the old historic tales into close contact
with the Tuatha De Danann ; a portion of them were
avowedly Cruithne ; and if they were, as we have seen,
in Erin, not of the Milesian race, but of the prior popu-
lation, and likewise connected with Alban, Breatan, and
Lochlan, the inference is obvious, that, whether a deno-
mination for an entire people or for a body of warriors,
they belonged to the previous population which preceded
the Germans in Lochlan and the Scots in Erin and Alban.
This view is corroborated by the fact, that in the old
poems and tales the Feinne appear, as we have said, in
close connexion with the Tuatha De Danann. They are
likewise connected with the Cruithne, as in the Lamen-
tation of Cuchullin over the body of his son Conlaoch, in
Miss Brooke's collection

http://www.archive.o...cluoft_djvu.txt


Well, I now say that Lochlann may have been the ancient name for Doggerland.

.... a name for a mythical country that disppeared beneath the waves.... and then much later a name for either Norway or Lower (north/north-west) Germany.

Well, Norway and Germany are still above sea level, so I think that Doggerland is a nice alternative for the original location of Lochlan.

Btw, I understand "Lochlan" is Irish for 'Land of Lakes'?? In that case Doggerland would be an even better candidate for Lochlan.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 March 2010 - 04:16 PM.

[SlimJim22]

It certainly makes a lot of sense, particularly being 'the land of the lakes'. Surely, not a lady of the lake reference but the geography is supporting Doggerland. I must have misread your post, the way I took it was that the breakup of islands off the mainland was due to tectonic shift and I prefered the idea that sea rise caused the separation of Britain from Europe.

The dating reminded me of the Picts of Ubaid and Black sea. They seemed to appear from nowhere with a defined culture. Is Lochlan/Doggerland too far for a migration post wave. I think Picts were the early inhabitants of Scotland so could be linked being right on the north sea. There is also a parallel between funerary rites, i.e. burying in mounds like the Dannan

It's interesting and you are doing great research but I'm not educated on the subject matter to offer anymore decent discussion sorry. Enjoying it though so I hope you find more on this here thread.  

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 16 March 2010 - 04:27 PM, said:

It certainly makes a lot of sense, particularly being 'the land of the lakes'. Surely, not a lady of the lake reference but the geography is supporting Doggerland. I must have misread your post, the way I took it was that the breakup of islands off the mainland was due to tectonic shift and I prefered the idea that sea rise caused the separation of Britain from Europe.

The dating reminded me of the Picts of Ubaid and Black sea. They seemed to appear from nowhere with a defined culture. Is Lochlan/Doggerland too far for a migration post wave. I think Picts were the early inhabitants of Scotland so could be linked being right on the north sea. There is also a parallel between funerary rites, i.e. burying in mounds like the Dannan

It's interesting and you are doing great research but I'm not educated on the subject matter to offer anymore decent discussion sorry. Enjoying it though so I hope you find more on this here thread.  

"Lady of the Lake"... that's about Avalon, right? I talked about Avalon in relation to the original meaning of the sea goddess Nehalennia (somewhere on the first pages of this thread).

-

Uhmmm.... "the Picts of Ubaid and Black Sea"?  Tel me about it, please.

-


OK Jim, I found something about Stonehenge, the 7000 BC date (and I think I posted it here before) :

Archaeology: The magic of Stonehenge: new dig finds clues to power of bluestones· Evidence points to belief in healing properties
· Charcoal fragments at site are dated to 7000BC


Maev Kennedy The Guardian, Tuesday 23 September 2008 | A handful of scraps of charred wood and a little pile of stone chips - finds from the first excavation at Stonehenge in more than 40 years - have added thousands of years to the history of one of the world's most famous prehistoric monuments.

There was no gold or bronze, but to the archaeologists who led the excavation, Professors Tim Darvill and Geoffrey Wainwright, the unlovely heap of finds is real treasure. They are convinced the stone chips are evidence of belief in the healing power of the "bluestones" brought 150 miles from south Wales, which endured long after the monument was thought to have been abandoned.

The magical bluestone, spotted dolerite which when newly quarried is a dark blue speckled with brilliant white stars of quartz, made Stonehenge into the Lourdes of prehistoric Europe, they believe, or as Darvill put it yesterday, "the accident and emergency unit of southern England".

The charcoal fragments also add haunting new evidence to the Stonehenge story. Darvill and Wainwright revealed yesterday, at the Society of Antiquaries in London, that the earliest has been dated to 7,000BC, and the most recent to medieval times, suggesting that the site was already important 4,000 years before the oldest stone circle, and continued to draw visitors for centuries after it was believed to have been abandoned.

http://www.guardian....eology.heritage

==


And aside from that, they recently discovered a 'Blue Henge', very close to Stonehenge, same age, at the Avon river.

So, there were people living at the sacred site of Stonehenge at the time Doggerland still existed.

For god knows what reason these ancient people considered that area as sacred.

Who were they, and why was that area sacred??

Many scientists think that the countries surrounding Doggerland were nothing but places they staid in for a short time of the year for hunting animals, and that for most of the rest of the year they would have retreated to Doggerland.

It may be that areas like where Stonehenge is located were nothing but sacred burial grounds for the Doggerland hunter/gatherers, and that that tradition continued for long after Doggerland disappeared under the sea.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

I don't know about Doggerland, but I have found Diggerland.  

[Abramelin]

747400, on 16 March 2010 - 05:53 PM, said:

I don't know about Doggerland, but I have found Diggerland.  

LOL, yeah, and they dug to deep and on too many places, and must've caused the flooding !!

[Abramelin]

I wonder why no Scots or Irish jump on this thread (I'll bet they are on 'uisge' right now, lol)...



Scottish Gaelic: Muir Lochlainn = North Sea

http://en.wiktionary.../Muir_Lochlainn



Scottish Gaelic: A' Mhuir a Tuath = North Sea

http://stopdog.com/d...;_Mhuir_a_Tuath

[Abramelin]

Another summary (especially for those who are too lazy to read up on this thread, heh) :



-1- Doggerland was a large stretch of land that became inhabited soon after the end of the last ice age, and became a good place for humans to live in, after a couple of thousand years (lets say from 8500 - 6100 BC)

-2- The culture of Doggerland was part of the Maglemosian culture (ca. 9500 BCE–6000) BCE) that existed in Northern Europe (from Britain to the Baltic)

-3- They were very probably seafarers

-4- The language spoken by the ancient Doggerlanders may have been (proto)-Finno-Ugric

-5- Doggerland got flooded and whiped from the map by a giant tsunami at around 6100 BC (the Storegga Slide). At 6100 BC -before it got hit by the Storegga tsunami - all that was left of Doggerland was an island the size of Ireland

-6- Those who survived the deluge (by being at a safe enough distance, or surfing the hell out of there by riding the tsunami, lol) fled to Scotland, England, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden.

-7- There are scientific clues (linguistic and genetic) that Doggerland was some sort of original homeland to many peoples now living at the borders of the North Sea

-8- It's possible (is it??) that the ancient Picts were the last remnants of the Doggerlanders who had survived the deluge. Maybe a relation with the Fomorians in the oldest Irish legends

-9- No idea at all, but maybe Nehalennia was the name of an ancient seagoddess worshipped long before the existence of Celtic and Germanic tribes at the coasts of the North Sea and maybe they - Celts and Germans - took over the worship (using slightly altered names, like "Elen", "Holle", "Hel", "Hulda" and so on. Maybe these Celtic and Germanic tribes were nothing but the offspring of these Doggerlanders, and maybe a mix of these Doggerlanders with people who came later to north-western Europe

-10- The Germanic name "Hel" or Celtic "Hal" (and lots of similar names) are the names of the old North Sea. There are even pilgrim roads through Germany and the Netherlands that are called "Hellweg", literally, "Road to Hell", Hell being the old name of the North Sea before the Christians stole it.

Over time the name Hell became synonym for everything evil. Maybe "hell" was connected to the original name of Doggerland, in some proto -IE or proto Finno Ugric language.

-11- Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the 'white people' (god knows why, but some geneticists believe this to be true)

-12- The Oera Linda Book, a proven hoax btw, may have used ancient (and unknown Frisian or other) legends as a source. Btw, the Frisians are genetically distinct from other people living around the North Sea, and they were there, very probably millenia ago. And they builded clay/stone mounts to live on, whole villages were on those 'terps'.

-13- (I almost forgot) Some think that ancient seafarers (from the western Mediterreanean) depicted the remnants of Doggerland in petroglyphs in present Portugal ( Aboboreira/ "How the Sungod reached America") as a dangerous area in the North Sea, an area to avoid. But that must have been after Doggerland sank beneath the waves, and only left a dangerous sand bank ("Doggers Bank")

-14- A guess: are the present Frisians the descendants of those Doggerlanders??? And did their ancestors indeed sail the seas and oceans back then, and did they influence the cultures of the countries they landed upon/in (I dont know the right English word for it)??

-15- If Doggerland was the homeland of white people, and if it is true that they fled it when they saw it being submerged, what did they do?? Flee as far as they could? Tell other people they met on their voyages - being seafarers - about what had happened to them or their kin??

-16- Was Doggerland "Hyperborea"? If the surivors of that deluge fled to everywhere, on ship or on land, crossing Europe, they may have met the ancestors of Homer and told them their story. They had already established the amber routes across Europe...

-17- Were they the ones who started the Megalithic culture across western Europe? And if so, why??

-18- Hmmmm......maybe the Celts (of Ireland, Scotland and Wales) had a name for Doggerland ( a name they would much later use for Scandinavia and/or North West Germany), and that name would be "Lochlan" (and lots of different spellings).

-19- Stonehenge may have been a 'healing' culture, and may also have been a sacred burial ground for the Doggerlanders

-20- "Lochlan", an Irish Gaelic word for 'Land of Lakes' is an appropriate word for Doggerland, because scientists have found out Doggerland was a land of rivers, marshes, woodlands, and lakes.

-21- Lochlan/Doggerland may have been the place of origin of the Fo®morians and/or Cuithne, and/or Tuatha De Danann as described in ancient Irish legends

-22- At present the Scots have the following names for the North Sea :

Muir Lochlainn = North Sea
Mhuir a Tuath = North Sea


-23- Heh, maybe good ol'Tolkien dreamt about its destruction by a 'giant, silent Wave' (genetic memory, or something. Well, it earned him a lot of fame and money, right?

-24- Did ancient Native Americans travel to Doggerland along the Gulf Stream ( think "Red Paint People/Maritime Archaic")? Were they the 'dark haired, dark skinned' Fomorians? You tell me...  (there are reports dating from Roman times up to just a couple of centuries ago of Inuit arriving in Scotland, Ireland and Holland in their canoes).



.

Edited by Abramelin, 16 March 2010 - 08:14 PM.

[jmccr8]

Hello Abamelin,
  I've been following this thread since its inception and I must commend you on your research.You have presented a very detailed and compelling veiw of this subject and draws one in for more.I look forward to what may be revealed in the future.Thank you jmccr8

[Abramelin]

jmccr8, on 16 March 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

Hello Abamelin,
  I've been following this thread since its inception and I must commend you on your research.You have presented a very detailed and compelling veiw of this subject and draws one in for more.I look forward to what may be revealed in the future.Thank you jmccr8

Thank you very much, Jmccr8.

I do my best to dig up anything that is connected to this lost country called "Doggerland" by some scientist.

I love the dig, and that's just because next to nothing is known about this large stretch of land that got catastrophically flooded, 6100 years BC.

[Abramelin]

The next book is a must-read if you are interested in the topic; here's a 3 page review:

Book Review: Europe's Lost World: The Rediscovery of Doggerland by V. Gaffney, S. Fitch and D. Smith


Some quotes of the review:

Most cultures around the world have a Noah's ark-style story - of a great inundation that consumes the whole planet. One rare exception is the eastern parts of the British Isles. Which is odd, because the archaeologists have recently established that just off the east coast of England there was a great lost land, an area greater than the existing UK, you might even call it a culture, which disappeared completely beneath the waves only around 6,000 years before today.[..Me: actually, it's around 6100 BC...] One explanation for this loss might be that the repeated invasions of the east coast in the historical period disrupted regional myth cycles, in contrast to the continuity of Celtic cultures of the west coast.

---

The report then goes on to look at what is known from the land of the sites of the period - the Mesolithic, the intermediate culture that it says has traditionally been neglected between the deep mysteries of the Paleolithic and the excitement of great change into farming of the Neolithic. The authors here make a now fashionable claim that at least some of the peoples of the time were considerably less nomadic, and built grander structures, than has traditionally been thought.

---

"The analysis] has provided information on c. 16,000km of river channels and no fewer than 24 lakes or marshes [...Me: Lochlann, "Land of Lakes"...], with the largest of these covering more than 300 square kilometres... the heart of Doggerland was a massive water body, mapped for more than 1700 square kilometres, filling the Outer Silver Pit....It seems likely that Markham's Hole was also a large lake during the early Mesolithic... and may contain substantial palaeoenvironmental deposits that archaeologists might consider coring for further information...the features mapped are almost all areas where animal and plant resources that might be of value to hunter-gatherers are likely to be concentrated."

---

"The heartland of the Mesolithic in north-west Europe would have been constantly shrinking and this would have been obvious to the inhabitants. Sometimes slow then terrifyingly fast, the sea inevitably reclaimed ancestral hunting grounds, campsites and landmarks...[but]the emerging salt marshs may well have been regarded as a gift from the sea... the Mesolithic occupants of Doggerland and the adjacent regions would have regarded water in a unique manner, as a place where the ancestors dwelt and thus an area of special importance. At periods of low tide, these ancestral homelands could have been revisited and venerated"

[Abramelin]

See post 189 on this page (the summary):

Points -8- and -21- are the same.

Btw, in line -21- you read "Cuithne", but that should be "Cruithne", the old Irish name for the (Scottish) Picts.

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 17 March 2010 - 12:45 PM, said:

See post 189 on this page (the summary):

Points -8- and -21- are the same.

Btw, in line -21- you read "Cuithne", but that should be "Cruithne", the old Irish name for the (Scottish) Picts.

I will look into that name. Here is my source for the stuff I was saying. Be warned the author is very eccentric and may go past the point of reason at times but I think you'll enjoy it overall.

http://www.bibliotec...ncourt02_11.htm

I don't agree with all he claims obviously but he does make valid connections based on the few facts regarding the region. it certainly makes an alternative explanation for the development of near eastern culture.

[cormac mac airt]

While not downplaying the importance of the area known as Doggerland in the migration of early European peoples, post LGM, they may have been more of a way-station than the origin of any of the local peoples.

Quote

Archaeological evidences have suggested that the core of the oldest populations colonising Scandinavia 11 000 –12 000 thousand years ago came from the present Germany. They probably went through the Jutland and the now submerged Doggerland, and then headed northward via the ice-free coastal area of Norway. Their lithic tools suggest they belonged to the Ahrensburgian culture,41,42 that thrived in central and eastern Europe (artifacts have been found in Poland, Lithuania and Russia) in the so called ‘Late Glacial’, that is at the end of the LGM, when the increase of temperature and precipitation triggered the recession of the ice sheets. The analysis of many Ahrensburg sites and the related lithic tools has suggested that this culture started from the Dniepr valley in Ukraine,20 one of the sites were humans found refuge during the LGM. The analysis of Y chromosome polymorphisms in present European populations has indicated that Eu 19 (that is also characterised by other Y chromosome markers: 49a,fht11, SRY 1532G35) expanded between 13 000 and 7600 years ago from the Dniepr-Don Valley area, probably when groups that initially sought refuge in that area during the LGM were allowed to migrate by the improved climatic conditions to those regions of Europe previously covered by ice.7,37 In fact this Y chromosome lineage, is by far more frequent is eastern Europe with a decreasing westward gradient. In addition it is much more diversified in eastern European populations.

Different genetic components in the Norwegian population revealed by the analysis of mtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms

cormac