the ideal youth

[me-wonders]

Do you want to guess who is quoted? What are your opinions?

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERyouth.htm

n my great educative work," said XXXXXXX, " I am beginning with the young. We older ones are used up. Yes, we are old already. We are rotten to the marrow. We have no unrestrained instincts left. We are cowardly and sentimental. We are bearing the burden of a humiliating past, and have in our blood the dull recollection of serfdom and servility. But my magnificent youngsters! Are there finer ones anywhere in the world? Look at these young men and boys! What material! With them I can make a new world.

"My teaching is hard. Weakness has to be knocked out of them. In my Ordensburgen a youth will grow up before which the world will shrink back. A violently active dominating, intrepid, brutal youth - that is what I am after". Youth must be all those things. It must be indifferent to pain. There must be no weakness or tenderness in it. I want to see once more in its eyes the gleam of pride and independence of the beast of prey. Strong and handsome must my young men be. I will have them fully trained in all physical exercises. I intend to have an athletic youth - that is the first and the chief thing. In this way I shall eradicate the thousands of years of human domestication. Then I shall have in front of me the pure and noble natural material. With that I can create the new order.

"I will have no intellectual training. Knowledge is ruin to my young men. I would have them learn only what takes their fancy. But one thing they must learn - self-command! They shall learn to overcome the fear of death, under the severest tests. That is the intrepid and heroic stage of youth. Out of it comes the stage of the free man, the man who is the substance and essence of the world, the creative man, the god-man. In my Ordensburgen there will stand as a statue for worship the figure of the magnificent, self-ordaining god-man; it will prepare the young men for their coming period of ripe manhood."

[Robbie333]

Do you want to guess who is quoted? What are your opinions?

My guess would be Hitler but I am sure you will tell me something different. If your opinion agrees with this rubbish then I say go away. We got rid of you animals long ago.

[ShadowSot]

It's about Hitler youth, but I've seen similar themed and stated remarks from a diverse backing of groups, including religious and some secular or supposed secular ones, and political.

Edited July 2, 2011 by ShadowSot

[me-wonders]

My guess would be Hitler but I am sure you will tell me something different. If your opinion agrees with this rubbish then I say go away. We got rid of you animals long ago.

Yes, this is a quote from Hitler. Now our schools put a lot of money in foot ball, and do not have public speaking classes. Which is more important to a democracy, the ability to play foot ball or the being a skilled public speaker?

[me-wonders]

It's about Hitler youth, but I've seen similar themed and stated remarks from a diverse backing of groups, including religious and some secular or supposed secular ones, and political.

Excellent you are getting to the point. Actually this thread goes with the one about education, because we learn what is the socially expected ideal, and public education is the source of education that touches all our lives. It appears you do not think Hitler's opinion of the ideal young man is the best one, but then what is? What should our society through text books, and the media, be teaching us about the ideal man and woman? Should have any agreements about what is socially acceptable and what is not?

[Trog]

MW. You have such a positive outlook .... Was that something you were born with or something cultivated ? .... Just curious as all people interest me .

[Robbie333]

Yes, this is a quote from Hitler. Now our schools put a lot of money in foot ball, and do not have public speaking classes. Which is more important to a democracy, the ability to play foot ball or the being a skilled public speaker?

I am confused at what your point is. I agree that education with the addition of public speaking is by far more important than sports and many other subjects taught in the public school system but... why the quote from a madman. Hitler had an agenda of genocide and the creation of the perfect Aryan race that was the underline of his quote. I might as well ask. Are you pro Nazi?

[StarMountainKid]

Children, having mailable minds that tend to submit to authority figures (believe it or not), their education is an important process to society. Adults are the result of their childhood education to a great extent.

Or is it? Isn't society as a whole a greater influence on a child's mind than education? Schooling teaches children the tools necessary to function in society, but their attitudes are shaped by the society they grow up in.

Should we regiment children in school to some doctrine or government/religious/moral agenda to change society?

[Mr_Snstr]

I am confused at what your point is. I agree that education with the addition of public speaking is by far more important than sports and many other subjects taught in the public school system but... why the quote from a madman. Hitler had an agenda of genocide and the creation of the perfect Aryan race that was the underline of his quote. I might as well ask. Are you pro Nazi?

Yikes, I don't think the quote was meant as a sympathetic view of Nazi ideals. More meant to be shock and awe, I beleive. A blitzkreig of your mind if you will. To bring you to the final solution, which would be the point of the post. As I see it:

Be mindful what what ideals are being taught to our youngsters and for what purpose are they being taught.

Oh and just a side note: For something to be more shocking it'd probably have to be less obvious :-P.

Edited July 5, 2011 by Mr_Snstr

[SlimJim22]

Hitler sure was crazy but he acquired enourmous power and popular support. He was also quite astute in recruiting the youth because they were easier to program/condition to act out his will of violence. By giving them positive feedback they were willing to kill or die for the cause. This 'cause' was where it went fundamentally wrong and if we invert some of Nietzche's ideas we may achieve a better result such as the actualization of self.

Under different circumstances Hitler could well have turned out to be another Baden Powell as he was an excellent motivator but due to socio-economic and personal factors he was tainted by prejudice to the extreme.

To blame everything on the man Hitler is to ignore all the other factors that played a role. I'm not an apolegist for the Nazis in anyway but war is a complex business and Hitler was a pawn in a greater game. The Nazi military complex did set the tone for the industrialization of the world thereafter so arguably that it one of the worst things to come out of WW2 but there are many other atrocities associated with that and other wars.

If I was looking for the Ideal Youth, I would look to the vision Baden Powell had for the Scout Movement but also to the positive elements of early hiphop before crack and the commodification of culture to such levels. Perhaps by combining the two we would have something unique and effective for engaging the youth of today in positive activity centred on their personal development and social interactions.

http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-bp.htm

Four Elements

1. Bboying = breakdancing = physical fitness

2. MCing = Performance and public speaking

3. DJing = Music appreciation, rhythm and improvisation/composition

4. Graffiti = Artistic Expression

It may not be perfect but it is a good start and nothing like the way mainstream media portrays it and it has sadly become in large part.

Edited July 5, 2011 by SlimJim22

[Robbie333]

Yikes, I don't think the quote was meant as a sympathetic view of Nazi ideals. More meant to be shock and awe, I beleive. A blitzkreig of your mind if you will. To bring you to the final solution, which would be the point of the post. As I see it:

Be mindful what what ideals are being taught to our youngsters and for what purpose are they being taught.

Oh and just a side note: For something to be more shocking it'd probably have to be less obvious :-P.

Yes, I feel you are right. This post was instated to oil the gears and make us think. Thanks. I was hoping I did not receive a "Pro Nazi" answer. I distain everything the Nazi regime and Hitler stood for. He was simply a maniac.

[me-wonders]

MW. You have such a positive outlook .... Was that something you were born with or something cultivated ? .... Just curious as all people interest me .

Thanks so much, but I am afraid I also have a dark side that sees conspiracies and evil intent everywhere. Usually I am wrong, with I flip to the negative and it is so embarrassing. I read a book by a very successful leader, that advised us to assume that others are acting on good intentions, I try to remember that to avoid embarrassing myself. I also think of "The Prophet" Gibran and that we do good when we feel good and do bad when we feel bad. Our industrial reality largely caused us to forget how important those feelings are.

I am becoming more and more aware that is a matter of spirit, and that we need to take care of our spirit. I have a profound sense that what really went wrong in Germany, went wrong on the spiritual level, and that the same is happening to the US, because it has imitated Germany. Such thinking brings up my dark side, and then I think of the title of this thread, and I think of Greek mythology and I see in my mind Greek statues, nude, dignified, alive and my spirits pick up. I wish we paid more attention to spirit. We might also pay more attention to what is the ideal youth, as the ideal will become our future.

[Robbie333]

Thanks so much, but I am afraid I also have a dark side that sees conspiracies and evil intent everywhere. Usually I am wrong, with I flip to the negative and it is so embarrassing. I read a book by a very successful leader, that advised us to assume that others are acting on good intentions, I try to remember that to avoid embarrassing myself. I also think of "The Prophet" Gibran and that we do good when we feel good and do bad when we feel bad. Our industrial reality largely caused us to forget how important those feelings are.

I am becoming more and more aware that is a matter of spirit, and that we need to take care of our spirit. I have a profound sense that what really went wrong in Germany, went wrong on the spiritual level, and that the same is happening to the US, because it has imitated Germany. Such thinking brings up my dark side, and then I think of the title of this thread, and I think of Greek mythology and I see in my mind Greek statues, nude, dignified, alive and my spirits pick up. I wish we paid more attention to spirit. We might also pay more attention to what is the ideal youth, as the ideal will become our future.

Well said.

[me-wonders]

Children, having mailable minds that tend to submit to authority figures (believe it or not), their education is an important process to society. Adults are the result of their childhood education to a great extent.

Or is it? Isn't society as a whole a greater influence on a child's mind than education? Schooling teaches children the tools necessary to function in society, but their attitudes are shaped by the society they grow up in.

Should we regiment children in school to some doctrine or government/religious/moral agenda to change society?

Oh my, you pushed my buttons of joy. Before we had public schools, we had churches, and before this pagan temples, and before this camp fires with story tellers, singers and dancers. These are the creators of culture. Public education is like a genii in a bottle. The defined purpose is the wish and the students are the genii. Seriously what is the ideal youth, then the ideal man and woman? What do we want to teach our young to be? Seriously, how does society create and maintain its culture? WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT? MIGHT WE GIVE SOME THOUGHT TO WHAT WE WANT AND WANT WE NEED TO DO TO MANIFEST IT? LOOK AT THE POWER HITLER HAD, TO WHOM DO YOU WANT TO GIVE THAT POWER, IF YOU DON'T WANT THE RESPONSIBILITY?

[me-wonders]

Hitler sure was crazy but he acquired enourmous power and popular support. He was also quite astute in recruiting the youth because they were easier to program/condition to act out his will of violence. By giving them positive feedback they were willing to kill or die for the cause. This 'cause' was where it went fundamentally wrong and if we invert some of Nietzche's ideas we may achieve a better result such as the actualization of self.

Under different circumstances Hitler could well have turned out to be another Baden Powell as he was an excellent motivator but due to socio-economic and personal factors he was tainted by prejudice to the extreme.

To blame everything on the man Hitler is to ignore all the other factors that played a role. I'm not an apolegist for the Nazis in anyway but war is a complex business and Hitler was a pawn in a greater game. The Nazi military complex did set the tone for the industrialization of the world thereafter so arguably that it one of the worst things to come out of WW2 but there are many other atrocities associated with that and other wars.

If I was looking for the Ideal Youth, I would look to the vision Baden Powell had for the Scout Movement but also to the positive elements of early hiphop before crack and the commodification of culture to such levels. Perhaps by combining the two we would have something unique and effective for engaging the youth of today in positive activity centred on their personal development and social interactions.

http://www.infed.org/thinkers/et-bp.htm

Four Elements

1. Bboying = breakdancing = physical fitness

2. MCing = Performance and public speaking

3. DJing = Music appreciation, rhythm and improvisation/composition

4. Graffiti = Artistic Expression

It may not be perfect but it is a good start and nothing like the way mainstream media portrays it and it has sadly become in large part.

God bless you Slim Jim, some things just can't be talked about, without someone picking up the other side of the conversation.

I saw a show where a community used hip hop to achieve a positive social goal and it worked miracles! Gosh, I wish I could remember the name of it and see if I can buy a DVD of the show, now that someone else is interested. It was wonderful, as an unhappy neighborhood got happy, using hip hop music and art. I believe this was started by a teacher.

For NAZI Germany and the US, we must be very careful, because very little separates these countries. We must stop taking the democracy and liberty we had for granted. I watched Lawrence Welk the other night, and everyone was so innocent. Lawrence and Red Skelton would not be popular today. What happened to our spirit? I can move from Lawrence to Hip Hop, but we are not as a nation moving in a positive direction. We are so antagonistic and the Republicans and Democrats fighting, are tearing us apart. Some are positive, but the majority seem jaded and synical (sp?), or apathetic. We don't protect our youth anymore, but expect them to deal with the sensational news and tragedy around the world. We have reason for great hope, but pressure our 6 years to acheive, like we pressure college students! There is an evil spirit dragging us down, and I think we need to pay more attention to what we think about children, and schools, and what we want. Thank you for joining the conversation.

[Mr_Snstr]

Yes, I feel you are right. This post was instated to oil the gears and make us think. Thanks. I was hoping I did not receive a "Pro Nazi" answer. I distain everything the Nazi regime and Hitler stood for. He was simply a maniac.

Maniac yes. But the real crazy part was the fact that the country made him their ruler. Hitlers have exsisted throughout history, and people capable of doing what he did exsist even now.

In a sense calling Hitler a monster or a maniac is true. But that belittles the real issue. The real issue being what happened to let a monster and a maniac rule one of the most powerful and advanced countries of the world at the time? How do you prevent this from happening again?

Eternal vigilance is the price as it's said.

[Robbie333]

Maniac yes. But the real crazy part was the fact that the country made him their ruler. Hitlers have exsisted throughout history, and people capable of doing what he did exsist even now.

In a sense calling Hitler a monster or a maniac is true. But that belittles the real issue. The real issue being what happened to let a monster and a maniac rule one of the most powerful and advanced countries of the world at the time? How do you prevent this from happening again?

Eternal vigilance is the price as it's said.

Sadly we as humans seem to have a short memory. We let things, uh, happen. Dafar, Bosnia, Pol Pot in the old Vietnam, etc, etc. I am afraid three key elements let this happen--in my opinion. Greed, Power and the almighty dollar. Less we forget that some humans are just plain crazy. I always wondered why we never went into Dafar when we first heard of the rapes and such. We all know that place had nothing to otfer the greedy world. Diamonds created another problem within African countries, as it still does. Sad. There will always be the forces of good and evil. The battle rages on. Have a good day.

[Mr_Snstr]

Sadly we as humans seem to have a short memory. We let things, uh, happen. Dafar, Bosnia, Pol Pot in the old Vietnam, etc, etc. I am afraid three key elements let this happen--in my opinion. Greed, Power and the almighty dollar. Less we forget that some humans are just plain crazy. I always wondered why we never went into Dafar when we first heard of the rapes and such. We all know that place had nothing to otfer the greedy world. Diamonds created another problem within African countries, as it still does. Sad. There will always be the forces of good and evil. The battle rages on. Have a good day.

Haha, indeed. Try not to get fooled my a maniacal mass murderer I'll do my best to do the same!

[Robbie333]

Haha, indeed. Try not to get fooled my a maniacal mass murderer I'll do my best to do the same!

What p***es me off the most is not being fooled but knowing the problem and not caring because of the benifit to the greedy.

[Mr_Snstr]

What p***es me off the most is not being fooled but knowing the problem and not caring because of the benifit to the greedy.

Aye. Its one thing to be unaware. But yeah, there are those who know better and go along with it.

[AmpleFyre]

To answer the "What is the ideal image of man and woman?", would require an answer to the question.

But to have an answer to such a question would belittle and deny freewill.

And even if there was such an image of the 'perfect human' and you had the power to show it to all of humanity, would you?

What if some resisted? What if many?

Now what if you had to power to enforce this 'perfect humanity' it upon all of mankind, would you?

Would you deny the freewill of an individual -- of all individuals -- to create such perfect harmony?

It's all a chain. A link. One leads to another, and it will spiral out of control.

The price of freewill is the pain and suffering of those who do not have it.

If there was no suffering in the world, you wouldn't have the freewill to think for yourself.

I see ideals as very dangerous things. Even if the intent is for the greater good of all mankind, there will always be someone who will take it to an extreme that only leads to more pain and suffering.

A good quote to sum up what I'm getting at would be: "The road to Hell is paved in good intentions."

[Robbie333]

I thinks everyone is missing the point. Hitler is not speaking about what is the right education for the youth and how to make a happier, harmonic world for them. He's talking about the perfect god-like MALE youth with which he can create powerful armies to conquer the world. That is his ideal youth. God Warriors. He had his own agenda in mind.

Well said.

[me-wonders]

To answer the "What is the ideal image of man and woman?", would require an answer to the question.

But to have an answer to such a question would belittle and deny freewill.

And even if there was such an image of the 'perfect human' and you had the power to show it to all of humanity, would you?

What if some resisted? What if many?

Now what if you had to power to enforce this 'perfect humanity' it upon all of mankind, would you?

Would you deny the freewill of an individual -- of all individuals -- to create such perfect harmony?

It's all a chain. A link. One leads to another, and it will spiral out of control.

The price of freewill is the pain and suffering of those who do not have it.

If there was no suffering in the world, you wouldn't have the freewill to think for yourself.

I see ideals as very dangerous things. Even if the intent is for the greater good of all mankind, there will always be someone who will take it to an extreme that only leads to more pain and suffering.

A good quote to sum up what I'm getting at would be: "The road to Hell is paved in good intentions."

Thank you for getting us back to the question. Before adopting education for technology, both English and US education was focused on transmitting culture and teaching character traits. The US used the classics and the hero model, and prepared everyone to be industrial and civic leaders. We created our own USA mythology, which we have since been taught to hate as we hate a lie, but the intentions of stories like Washington cutting down a cherry tree and being honest when his father asked what happened, and Lincoln walking a mile to give someone a penny, impressed young minds with ideas about what was the right thing to do, and made us a highly moral country. The Spirit of America is morale, that high spirited feeling that comes from believing we are doing right thing.

There are two ways to have social control, culture or authority over the people. We have destroyed our culture in the classroom, and have become increasingly dependent on authority over the people, and everyone believes this authority over the people is necessary. It is now unthinkable to do business with others based on trust, instead of contracts and law, but I remember when we had less law and more trust, and honesty was expected, and I would be shocked if a Quaker proved unworthy of trust. My great grandfather, owned a business and when his business partner embezzled from the company, he sold everything including his very nice family home, and he worked to pay everyone back in full. His honor was more important than money. Many years later, my father who was on the other side of my family, arrived in a town before his pay. He had to ask to for a dinner with the promise of paying, and he was given one. When he returned to pay the bill, he asked why, they were willing to give a meal when he couldn't pay for it, and he was told Hendron's were known to be honest and honorable people. That is better than a credit card, but my son and daughter never understood why honesty and why keeping my word were so important to me. Their generation is too far from when we had a different culture.

I met a man who was from my grandmother's generation and was very impressed by how he demonstrated the same sense of morality my grandmother lived with. He worked for the Register Guard Newspaper where I live, and obviously understood the meaning of the newspaper's name, and the sense of importance news reporters once had. We had a different reality when we educated for a different reality, and I think you might give more thought to what a good citizen is, in a country with self government, because teaching that was the priority of public education, and it is essential to liberty.

[Robbie333]

Thank you for getting us back to the question. Before adopting education for technology, both English and US education was focused on transmitting culture and teaching character traits. The US used the classics and the hero model, and prepared everyone to be industrial and civic leaders. We created our own USA mythology, which we have since been taught to hate as we hate a lie, but the intentions of stories like Washington cutting down a cherry tree and being honest when his father asked what happened, and Lincoln walking a mile to give someone a penny, impressed young minds with ideas about what was the right thing to do, and made us a highly moral country. The Spirit of America is morale, that high spirited feeling that comes from believing we are doing right thing.

There are two ways to have social control, culture or authority over the people. We have destroyed our culture in the classroom, and have become increasingly dependent on authority over the people, and everyone believes this authority over the people is necessary. It is now unthinkable to do business with others based on trust, instead of contracts and law, but I remember when we had less law and more trust, and honesty was expected, and I would be shocked if a Quaker proved unworthy of trust. My great grandfather, owned a business and when his business partner embezzled from the company, he sold everything including his very nice family home, and he worked to pay everyone back in full. His honor was more important than money. Many years later, my father who was on the other side of my family, arrived in a town before his pay. He had to ask to for a dinner with the promise of paying, and he was given one. When he returned to pay the bill, he asked why, they were willing to give a meal when he couldn't pay for it, and he was told Hendron's were known to be honest and honorable people. That is better than a credit card, but my son and daughter never understood why honesty and why keeping my word were so important to me. Their generation is too far from when we had a different culture.

I met a man who was from my grandmother's generation and was very impressed by how he demonstrated the same sense of morality my grandmother lived with. He worked for the Register Guard Newspaper where I live, and obviously understood the meaning of the newspaper's name, and the sense of importance news reporters once had. We had a different reality when we educated for a different reality, and I think you might give more thought to what a good citizen is, in a country with self government, because teaching that was the priority of public education, and it is essential to liberty.

Very well said. I just hope our " new generation" can return to our values, or at least the ones we attempted to instill. Somehow, quite simply, these values are seemingly being slowly drained away. Fixing this process will not be easy but I believe it is essential for the future.

[SlimJim22]

Are we in danger of putting the welfare of a nation or an ideology ahead of that of individuals? Germany made the mistake of seeing themselves as superior and therefore worthy of expanding an empire. Rather than focussing on expanding the consciousness of individuals Hitler chose to use individuals to expand his own borders. he may have been a Nationalist but he was undoubtedly on an ego trip on behalf of Germans or Aryans or whatever.

If we get back to seeing nations as having fixed borders and each nation as having a sovreign right to exist, we may be able to refocus our efforts on raising the education standards for people so they may aspire to greatness without feeding their ego beliefs that will eventually lead them away from actualization and union and back towards separation and exclusion.

Getting people to study ethics, empathy and compassion as well as the arts and learning to shift their persepctive, will all lead to people more focused on helping the whole of humanity, the world and all life on it before they will seek to serve themselves or their nation. How this is achieved is by individuals becoming the best they can be rather than trying to shape people to fit pegholes that industry requires. Above all seeing everything as a part of the whole and important it its own right.