94 replies to this topic

[questionmark]

Lord Vetinari, on 23 January 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

the EU would be entirely admirable if it wasn't for this silly Common Currency idea, I think. That was the problem. I mean, that was just a purely dogmatic idea which was pushed through without thinking about how practical it was, really. And all this tedious insistence on imposing regulations to "harmonise" everything; again, that just seems like Politicians imposing things in order to show everyone who's boss. Why does there need to be a common Government? Why couldn't it just be a free trade area, like was the original idea behind it? These, I think, are the main problems with it.
I'm afraid that the smug "well, the rest of Europe will be waving bye bye" attitude doesn't really help, and nor does the insistence on portraying everyone who questions things like the Common Currency as a xenophobic bigot, since I think most people outside a small core of readers of certain papers who still hate the Germans would have no problem with free trade, in fact that's a concept that Britain has always been all in favour of, it's just that people really don't like having regulations imposed on them by another layer of Government on top of the already incompetent one they already have. I do wish that pro-EU supporters would be able to understand that, and not just dismiss everything with "the rest of Europe is getting ready to wave goodbye".

The single currency is not really a problem, having an open market with different currencies was. In the good old days all it took is for the Italians to devalue the Lira and bang, a few thousand workers were unemployed in Manchester because British cloth maker could not compete at the new Italian price. The only thing that went wrong with the common currency is that it came at the wrong time. You first put in equal rules for all and then you have a central bank for all having the instruments in place to oversee the rules and fine where needed.

But that was politicking at the time, the Germans got the reunification and the French the Euro...15 years too early.

[ealdwita]

[TheLastLazyGun]

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Yes: there will be an EU In / Out referendum

...but not for at least 7 years

That's funny.  I thought Cameron said the referendum will be held between 2015 and 2017.

[TheLastLazyGun]

Render, on 23 January 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

He's waiting till 2015-2017 because the referendum will only come around those years IF he gets re-elected.

I think we'll definitely have a referendum around then even if he isn't elected.

That's because the Labour Party will know that they are on the back foot now that there will be a referendum if the Conservatives are to be re-elected.  Most Britons want a referendum, so the Labour Party cannot afford to just sit back and do nothing now that the Conservatives have promised one.  So it will only be a matter of time before Labour will also promise a referendum should THEY be re-elected.

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This has nothing to do with the benefit for the UK ppl, this has everything to do with Cameron trying to get some votes. It's so desperate.

I don't care what Cameron's motives are.  Despite the EU's best efforts Britain is still a democracy and it's only right in our democracy that the British people get to decide on whether or not they want in or out of the EU.

The British people will decide whether or not Britain is to remain in the EU, not British politicians and most certainly not unelected, anti-British, democracy-hating, nation-state-detesting, corrupt Eurocrats.

The cogs of democracy have started turning in Britain and those Eurocrats - judging by their reactions to Cameron's speech - are now running scared.

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And by 2015-2017 the EU will have rebounded and be a stronger force

Either you've got a crystal ball or you are simply thinking wishfully.  I'd say it's the latter.

My betting is that the EU (especially the Eurozone) will still be the Sick Man of the World by then.

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Populism is so transparant.

It's not "popuilism".  It's democracy.

I know Europhiles hate democracy, but that's just life.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 23 January 2013 - 05:01 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

"It's not "popuilism".  It's democracy.

I know Europhiles hate democracy, but that's just life"

A country who draws almost all of its politicians from public schools and dynastic career politicans cannot be called a democracy. Didn't anyone ever tell you that your still a subject.

Br Cornelius

[TheLastLazyGun]

questionmark, on 23 January 2013 - 02:18 PM, said:

The only thing that went wrong with the common currency is that it came at the wrong time.

The only thing that went wrong with the Euro is, as many people in Britain warned when it was being introduced (their warnings were, of course, ignored), that a one-size-fits-all monetary policy cannot work and was always doomed to failure.

If the people who run the EU had actually listened to those critics then the Eurozone won't be in the mess that it's in now.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 23 January 2013 - 05:24 PM.

[TheLastLazyGun]

Br Cornelius, on 23 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

A country who draws almost all of its politicians from public schools and dynastic career politicans cannot be called a democracy

Why not?

And I would rather be led by people who have had a good education than by those who have had a bad one.

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Didn't anyone ever tell you that your still a subject.

Didn't anyone tell you that the British are NOT subjects?

And, even if they are, that is not a sign of lack of democracy or lack of freedom.

Is a British "subject" less free than a US or French citizen?  Not according to the latest list of most democratic countries.

If Britain is suffering a lack of democracy, that's because it's in the EU, which doesn't like democracy and the opinion of the people.

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 23 January 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[itsnotoutthere]

Br Cornelius, on 23 January 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

"It's not "popuilism".  It's democracy.

I know Europhiles hate democracy, but that's just life"

A country who draws almost all of its politicians from public schools and dynastic career politicans cannot be called a democracy. Didn't anyone ever tell you that your still a subject.

Br Cornelius

Semantics dear boy, semantics.

[TheLastLazyGun]

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The picture that Cameron presented was a veritable British heaven on earth: an open, competitive, flexible Europe with a restored sense of the importance of democratic accountability and respect for the historical differences between its member states. Oh gosh, yes. We would all (on this side of the Channel) sign up to that. Add to that a reduction in central control, the reversibility of EU powers and a minimal role for Brussels bureaucracy in a free single market – what's not to like?

Respecting individual nation states and their governments is a principle which the EU – which has consciously chosen to invest power in its unelected central institutions – is never likely to accept. Britain, on these terms, is better off out.

http://blogs.telegra...luck-with-that/

And Peter Hitchens sums up the madness of the Europhiles and their loathing for democracy perfectly....

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The European Question is a very simple one. The EU is, and always has been, a plan to integrate its members into a single supranational state. The idea that Britain ‘originally joined a Common Market which was just a free trade area’ is the most abject tripe. There was never any such organisation.

The poor boobies who write letters to the papers claiming that this what they voted for back in 1975 are just that, boobies. They refused to listen to the correct warnings they were given at the time. Then, when the warnings proved to be true, these boobies forgave themselves by pretending that they didn’t know, when the truth was that they knew, but preferred to ignore the knowledge.

The readiness of supposed ‘Eurosceptics’ to believe obvious falsehoods, peddled by blatant charlatans, while dismissing the cogent warnings of the informed, is amazing. Do bluebottles fly into their open mouths as they walk along? This is one of the reasons why I increasingly believe Britain deserves its fate as a bankrupt ex-power. Tribal voters prefer their comfortable habits to any sort of thought. In that case, why be surprised when you are betrayed and spat upon, repeatedly?

Here we are again, with Mr Slippery going on and on about a referendum of some kind or other which he will offer, in the impossible future after he has won a general election. What kind of nitwit would be wooed by this stuff?

First, the Conservative Party is not going to win the next election, or any other national election, so the referendum, in the form put forward by Mr Slippery, will never be held.

Secondly, if the Slippery pledge leads the other parties to match it, and a referendum is in fact held, the government will control:

The rules

The timing

The question


Thirdly, if even after all that, the people of the country come up with the “wrong” answer (i.e. vote to leave the EU), the result will be ignored or circumvented or used as a pretext for ‘renegotiation’ of our position in the EU, which will lead nowhere.

http://hitchensblog....referendum.html

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 23 January 2013 - 05:39 PM.

[Br Cornelius]

TheLastLazyGun, on 23 January 2013 - 05:22 PM, said:

Why not?

And I would rather be led by people who have had a good education than by those who have had a bad one.

When politics is disproportionately drawn from the upper middle class is it any surprise that they favour policies which disproportionately favour their own class.
This is why the UK government has been running along clutching the tail of the city spivs for the last 200years and been totally neglecting its industrial base or even running it down. England hasn't had a meaningful industrial policy since the 1950's because it draws almost none of its representatives from the industrial sector.
Is it any surprise that the Government allowed a credit bubble and property bubble ruin the economy when the financial industry was whispering sweet nothings in its ear.
Is it any surprise that it has attempted to block any EU driven meaningful reform of the financial sector  - despite the corrosive effect it has has on the economy of the country.

Really, who's interests are the Tory spivs really looking after ?

Br Cornelius

[TheLastLazyGun]

A majority of MSN UK readers would vote to quit the EU in a referendum, according to a new poll.

We asked how people would vote in an in/out EU referendum on the day that David Cameron promised such a vote if the Tories win the next general election in 2015.

More than 16,000 people have taken part in our online poll so far - and 69% would vote to quit. It's a result which shows that supporters of the UK remaining within the EU have their work cut out.

In a heavily anticipated speech in London, Mr Cameron said the next Tory general election manifesto would ask for a mandate to negotiate a "new settlement" for Britain in Europe. That deal would be put to voters in a referendum by the end of 2017.

Responding to the poll findings, Ukip leader Nigel Farage said: “If Cameron thinks he has parked the issue of Europe, then he has got another thing coming.

“We are delighted that he has made the idea of Britain leaving the European Union something that is no longer a dream, but something that is real.”



http://news.uk.msn.c...t-speech-459701

Edited by TheLastLazyGun, 23 January 2013 - 06:37 PM.

[keithisco]

.

TheLastLazyGun, on 23 January 2013 - 04:51 PM, said:

That's funny.  I thought Cameron said the referendum will be held between 2015 and 2017.

OK, OK, dont get emotional - I started this thread before the actual Speech. I still stand by my statement however, because he will just delay and delay ("negotiations are taking longer than I expected").

In short, I believe this is little more than Political sleight-of-hand to diminish the popularity of UKIP and that the call for a referendum will not be honoured. In the final analysis, the Tory Party will simply kick Cameron out of the Position as Leader of the Party, and replace him with someone else – because in accordance with party Practises, a new leader is not hidebound by a previous leader’s decisions or pronouncements.

To be honest, all it takes is for 1 country to say NO to his re-negotiation plans and he will be left high and dry. France has already said NO after his speech, so really he has nothing to negotiate.

On the other hand, France has already said it will roll out the red carpet to any UK Business that wants to relocate there when UK pulls out!! I am on that list because the EU is my home and where I make all of my investments, and where I employ my staff.

Edited by keithisco, 23 January 2013 - 07:34 PM.

[keithisco]

TheLastLazyGun, on 23 January 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

And Peter Hitchens sums up the madness of the Europhiles and their loathing for democracy perfectly....

Unfortunately - your post actually proves the exact OPPOSITE of what you are trying to say...Nice try, could do better.

Oh, by the way... and keep this to yourself   The rest of the EU REALLY want you to leave. You have prevented a democratically elected President from being chosen, a democratic Constitution being voted on, in fact every time democratic procedures were advanced the UK vetoed them. etc etc.

Bye Bye, good riddance - but of course, you will never have a referendum

[spud the mackem]

Expected nothing less from the French, they help asylum seekers onto transport going to U.K., and I think I would rather be a "Cherry Picker" than a Poop gatherer.  Britain 3 France 1, Britain 2 Gemany 0, thats why they dont like us.We are the Champions ,no time for losers...........

[keithisco]

spud the mackem, on 23 January 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

Expected nothing less from the French, they help asylum seekers onto transport going to U.K., and I think I would rather be a "Cherry Picker" than a Poop gatherer.  Britain 3 France 1, Britain 2 Gemany 0, thats why they dont like us.We are the Champions ,no time for losers...........

Thankyou for your serious and considered contribution to this discussion...