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AS11 Astronauts give fake moon rock to dutch


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#61    flyingswan

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 10:48 AM

View Postturbonium, on 13 September 2009 - 05:11 AM, said:

NASA has EVERYTHING to do with it.
You have no evidence whatever to link the rock to NASA.  The ambassador said he got it from the State Dept., not NASA.  NASA were not handing out souvenir moon rocks to anyone at that date.  Where is the link to NASA?

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In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#62    Peter B

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Posted 13 September 2009 - 01:48 PM

View Postturbonium, on 13 September 2009 - 05:11 AM, said:

NASA had nothing to do with it?!?! What a joke!!

The US Ambassador is on a Goodwill Tour - with the Apollo 11 astronauts - and gives the Dutch VIP a supposed Moon rock. The Dutch museum comes into possession of the rock, and calls NASA to confirm that it is a genuine Apollo Moon rock.

NASA does not tell the Dutch it cannot be a genuine Moon rock. Indeed, they give the Dutch the impression that it IS a genuine Moon rock. Why would NASA do that?

NASA has EVERYTHING to do with it.
G'day Turbonium

Where do you get the idea that NASA gave the Dutch the impression the rock was a genuine moon rock? I think you need to read the original article again:

Quote

The museum had vetted the moon rock with a phone call to NASA, Van Gelder said.

She said the space agency told the museum then that it was possible the Netherlands had received a rock: NASA gave moon rocks to more than 100 countries in the early 1970s, but those were from later missions.

"Apparently no one thought to doubt it, since it came from the prime minister's collection," Van Gelder said.
Note what NASA said: they gave moon rocks to more than 100 countries in the early 1970s, but those were from later missions.

The US ambassador gave the rock to the former PM in October 1969. That is not the early 1970s, and not from the later missions.


#63    flyingswan

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Posted 14 September 2009 - 09:09 PM

I've only got a poor translation of an article in Russian, but this says that the origin of the rock in question has been traced.  It comes from Arizona.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#64    MID

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Posted 15 September 2009 - 12:53 AM

View Postturbonium, on 13 September 2009 - 05:11 AM, said:

NASA had nothing to do with it?!?! What a joke!!

The US Ambassador is on a Goodwill Tour - with the Apollo 11 astronauts - and gives the Dutch VIP a supposed Moon rock. The Dutch museum comes into possession of the rock, and calls NASA to confirm that it is a genuine Apollo Moon rock.



Unfortunately, the U.S. Ambassador was not on the goodwill tour with the Apollo 11 Astronauts.
The Ambassador was on duty in country.  The Apollo 11 astronauts just happened to be going to that country.

He gave a rock in commemoration of the landing of the Apollo 11 mission on the Moon.  This was not something involving NASA, and likely, no one knew about it save him.


#65    turbonium

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:07 AM

View PostPeter B, on 13 September 2009 - 01:48 PM, said:

G'day Turbonium

Where do you get the idea that NASA gave the Dutch the impression the rock was a genuine moon rock? I think you need to read the original article again:

Note what NASA said: they gave moon rocks to more than 100 countries in the early 1970s, but those were from later missions.

The US ambassador gave the rock to the former PM in October 1969. That is not the early 1970s, and not from the later missions.

You're missing the point, Peter (g'day back to you, btw)...

According to the article, NASA told them "it was possible..."that they had indeed received a genuine Moon rock.

If NASA didn't give out "genuine" Moon rocks in 1969, then doesn't it make sense that NASA would have mentioned it to the Dutch at that time?!?!

Of course it does. NASA would have simply said "Sorry, but if you received ae rock in 1969, then it can't be a  genuine Apollo Moon rock, because we  never gave out any Moon rocks until the early 1970's".


#66    flyingswan

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 09:50 AM

View Postturbonium, on 19 September 2009 - 03:07 AM, said:

You're missing the point, Peter (g'day back to you, btw)...

According to the article, NASA told them "it was possible..."that they had indeed received a genuine Moon rock.

If NASA didn't give out "genuine" Moon rocks in 1969, then doesn't it make sense that NASA would have mentioned it to the Dutch at that time?!?!

Of course it does. NASA would have simply said "Sorry, but if you received ae rock in 1969, then it can't be a  genuine Apollo Moon rock, because we  never gave out any Moon rocks until the early 1970's".
Maybe the museum didn't mention the date, maybe whoever they asked at NASA wasn't aware of when the souvenir rocks were distributed, maybe turbonium is reading a lot more into this than is actually there.  After all, the Dutch still have two genuine samples on public display in another museum, so if the guy at NASA just looked up a list of recipients and found that the Dutch goverment was included...

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#67    Abramelin

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:34 PM

View Postmcrom901, on 28 August 2009 - 03:02 PM, said:

nice one  Posted Image thanks

Hmm... if you now really think that starchy's post was meant as serious.....


#68    mcrom901

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 04:45 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 19 September 2009 - 02:34 PM, said:

Hmm... if you now really think that starchy's post was meant as serious.....

thanks  :tu:


#69    KennyB

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 04:35 PM

starchy, I pick option #1.  KennyB


#70    MID

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Posted 23 September 2009 - 12:12 AM

[quote name='turbonium' date='18 September 2009 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1253329655' post='3089431']


According to the article, NASA told them "it was possible..."that they had indeed received a genuine Moon rock.


[/quote]


The article says...

[quote]The museum had vetted the moon rock with a phone call to NASA, Van Gelder said.

She said [size="5"]the space agency told the museum then that it was possible the Netherlands had received a rock: NASA gave moon rocks to more than 100 countries in the early 1970s, but those were from later missions.[/[/size]quote]

I think that's rather clear, actually.

The rock's plaque is dated October 9, 1969...

On 11 September 1969, the Interagency Committee on Back Contamination issued a release of the lunar samples effective at 12:00 on 12 September 1969 to NASA.  

It was several weeks down the road, in early October 1969 when the first samples of lunar rocks were picked up by the principal investigators (those contracted to perform in-depth studies on the lunar rocks by NASA).  The several week delay was because of the preparation of slivers that most of the PIs required to do their studies.  These samples were handled with very strict accounting and security procedures governing the use of these samples, so as to prevent theft or unauthorized use of the samples.

A symposium discussing the results of independent investigator results was held in January of 1970, and no samples were even put on display until after these samples were released to principal investigators, let alone given away...

There is no possible way that anyone was given a sample Moon rock in October of 1969, as the scientific samples were just being picked up by the investigators so as to begin their anaylsis.   Apollo 11 had no rocks with them, this fellow was obviously not given a Moon rock, and it was obviously a politician doing his political thing...


And, the article states the facts.  NASA gave away samples of Moon rock in the early 1970s...not in October of 1969, a mere few weeks after they had been relesed to scientific investigators under very tight security and accounting procedures.


#71    Peter B

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 02:45 PM

View Postturbonium, on 19 September 2009 - 03:07 AM, said:

You're missing the point, Peter (g'day back to you, btw)...
Well, I think I'm seeing some point!

Quote

According to the article, NASA told them "it was possible..."that they had indeed received a genuine Moon rock.

If NASA didn't give out "genuine" Moon rocks in 1969, then doesn't it make sense that NASA would have mentioned it to the Dutch at that time?!?!

Of course it does. NASA would have simply said "Sorry, but if you received ae rock in 1969, then it can't be a  genuine Apollo Moon rock, because we  never gave out any Moon rocks until the early 1970's".
Yes, and the fact that NASA apparently didn't say that suggests to me that the Dutch didn't indicate to NASA when the rock was given to their PM.

I'm thinking of two possible conversations could have taken place...

Conversation 1:

Quote

Dutch: We have this rock which was given to a former PM in October 1969, and we're wondering if it's a genuine Moon rock.

NASA: Well, it's possible it's a genuine Moon rock. We gave moon rocks to more than 100 countries in the early 1970s, from the later Apollo missions.

Dutch: Oh, wait...

Conversation 2:

Quote

Dutch: We have this rock, and we're wondering if it's a genuine Moon rock.

NASA: Well, it's possible it's a genuine Moon rock. We gave moon rocks to more than 100 countries in the early 1970s, from the later Apollo missions.

Dutch: {go back and check when the rock was given to the PM, and find out it was in October 1969} Oh, wait...
Now to me, the first conversation makes no sense, and it appears also to not make sense to you. The second one makes a lot more sense, and the difference is that the Dutch didn't tell NASA the rock's provenance.


#72    Peter B

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Posted 24 September 2009 - 02:48 PM

View PostKennyB, on 22 September 2009 - 04:35 PM, said:

starchy, I pick option #1.  KennyB
You might like to reply on the Moon Hoax thread (the one that's four hundred and something pages long...), but would you mind telling us how you think the Apollo missions were faked, and why it was necessary? Thanks.


#73    turbonium

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 04:00 AM

View PostPeter B, on 24 September 2009 - 02:45 PM, said:


Yes, and the fact that NASA apparently didn't say that suggests to me that the Dutch didn't indicate to NASA when the rock was given to their PM.

I'm thinking of two possible conversations could have taken place...

Conversation 1:

Dutch: We have this rock which was given to a former PM in October 1969, and we're wondering if it's a genuine Moon rock.

NASA: Well, it's possible it's a genuine Moon rock. We gave moon rocks to more than 100 countries in the early 1970s, from the later Apollo missions.

Dutch: Oh, wait...


Conversation 2:

Dutch: We have this rock, and we're wondering if it's a genuine Moon rock.

NASA: Well, it's possible it's a genuine Moon rock. We gave moon rocks to more than 100 countries in the early 1970s, from the later Apollo missions.

Dutch: {go back and check when the rock was given to the PM, and find out it was in October 1969} Oh, wait...


Now to me, the first conversation makes no sense, and it appears also to not make sense to you. The second one makes a lot more sense, and the difference is that the Dutch didn't tell NASA the rock's provenance.

Neither one of those conversations add up

The Dutch vetted the rock. They certainly knew it was given to their former PM in 1969, during the Apollo 11 Goodwill Tour. It makes sense that they would have brought up such an important fact to NASA. Even if they (somehow) forgot to mention it, why wouldn't NASA have asked them when they got it?

But, let's assume both the Dutch and NASA forget to bring it up. NASA tells them it was a "possible" genuine Moon rock, because more than 100 countries had received Moon rocks from later missions in the 1970's. Then, we either have to assume the person "vetting" the rock on behalf of the Dutch museum isn't sure when they got the rock, and needs to follow up on it later, or he/she already knew when they got it (in 1969), but just forgot to tell NASA.

In either case, the Dutch would not have spent decades continuing to believe it was a genuine Moon rock!!

There is also a problem with the article's comment about more than 100 countries receiving Moon rocks in the 1970's. It is not a direct quote from Van Gelder (Dutch museum). It may be a comment made by the author of the article, not by NASA. Indeed, it makes no sense for NASA to have said such a thing, because if they had, then the Dutch would not have kept on believing it was a genuine Moon rock for the next 40 years.    

Unless you think the Dutch are complete morons, then the only logical conclusion is that NASA lied to the Dutch, and told them they had a genuine Moon rock from Apollo 11.  


But it's not only how NASA "vetted" the fake rock for the Dutch. It's also about how much effort it would probably have taken them to come up with a fake rock like that in the first place. I mean, it's not as if petrified wood that resembles a Moon rock is easy to find.
There was obviously a concerted effort made beforehand (prior to the 1969 Goodwill Tour) to obtain this piece of Moon/Apollo fakery.

Totally intentional deceit.

Edited by turbonium, 26 September 2009 - 04:29 AM.


#74    flyingswan

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 10:47 AM

View Postturbonium, on 26 September 2009 - 04:00 AM, said:

Unless you think the Dutch are complete morons, then the only logical conclusion is that NASA lied to the Dutch, and told them they had a genuine Moon rock from Apollo 11.  


But it's not only how NASA "vetted" the fake rock for the Dutch. It's also about how much effort it would probably have taken them to come up with a fake rock like that in the first place. I mean, it's not as if petrified wood that resembles a Moon rock is easy to find.
There was obviously a concerted effort made beforehand (prior to the 1969 Goodwill Tour) to obtain this piece of Moon/Apollo fakery.

Totally intentional deceit.
Once again, you're getting a long way from the facts.

The rock doesn't resemble moon rock in the least, as was obvious the very first time that a geologist looked at it.

Second, the rock isn't claimed to be a moon rock, compare the inscription on its plaque from those of the later distribution of Apollo samples.

The recipient, an elderly retired politician, apparently believed it was a moon rock, but so far we've got no idea whether he was told that it was or whether it was a misunderstanding.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#75    Peter B

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Posted 27 September 2009 - 02:00 PM

View Postturbonium, on 26 September 2009 - 04:00 AM, said:

Neither one of those conversations add up

The Dutch vetted the rock. They certainly knew it was given to their former PM in 1969, during the Apollo 11 Goodwill Tour. It makes sense that they would have brought up such an important fact to NASA. Even if they (somehow) forgot to mention it, why wouldn't NASA have asked them when they got it?
Yes, a responsible vetting process should have provided all the available evidence to NASA. But people are human, and make mistakes. Also, remember the Rijksmuseum is primarily an art museum, not a science one, so quite possibly the person who was given the job of doing the vetting didn't know the right questions to ask. Perhaps we should find out what the Rijksmuseum people actually asked NASA.

Quote

But, let's assume both the Dutch and NASA forget to bring it up. NASA tells them it was a "possible" genuine Moon rock, because more than 100 countries had received Moon rocks from later missions in the 1970's. Then, we either have to assume the person "vetting" the rock on behalf of the Dutch museum isn't sure when they got the rock, and needs to follow up on it later, or he/she already knew when they got it (in 1969), but just forgot to tell NASA.
Again, a good point to pursue with the Rijksmuseum.

Quote

In either case, the Dutch would not have spent decades continuing to believe it was a genuine Moon rock!!
Well, this point depends on when the Rijksmuseum contacted NASA. The article from which this story is drawn doesn't say. So this is another point we need to clarify.

Quote

There is also a problem with the article's comment about more than 100 countries receiving Moon rocks in the 1970's. It is not a direct quote from Van Gelder (Dutch museum). It may be a comment made by the author of the article, not by NASA. Indeed, it makes no sense for NASA to have said such a thing, because if they had, then the Dutch would not have kept on believing it was a genuine Moon rock for the next 40 years.
Good point, and something else to clarify with the Rijksmuseum - did NASA actually say this to the museum?    

Quote

Unless you think the Dutch are complete morons, then the only logical conclusion is that NASA lied to the Dutch, and told them they had a genuine Moon rock from Apollo 11.  
There's another alternative. That is to withhold judgement until we get answers to the issues you've raised.

On that basis, I think it's unfortunate that you've reached your conclusion and made a claim. I'd prefer to collect all the evidence before drawing too many conclusions.

Quote

But it's not only how NASA "vetted" the fake rock for the Dutch. It's also about how much effort it would probably have taken them to come up with a fake rock like that in the first place. I mean, it's not as if petrified wood that resembles a Moon rock is easy to find.
There was obviously a concerted effort made beforehand (prior to the 1969 Goodwill Tour) to obtain this piece of Moon/Apollo fakery.
Pardon? It's petrified wood. It can be found all over the world. The article even calls it "nondescript". And where does the article say it "resembles a Moon rock"?

Quote

Totally intentional deceit.
Come on, Turbonium, that's a completely unfair charge to lay when we don't know what the Rijksmuseum people actually asked NASA, when they contacted NASA, or what NASA said in response.





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