Fluoridegate

[Cybele]

It does support my opinions, or I wouldn't have posted it. You have to think past the words. There is a unaccounted for increase in gum disease. WHY?

You're seeing these statistics as evidence of the dangers of fluoride because you want to, not because it is implicated in any way in the research.

As you will note, your article, along with the National Institutes of Health website, list cardiovascular disease and diabetes as factors associated with periodontal disease. Can you guess what health problem has both been exploding in recent decades and is known to cause c.v. disease and diabetes? How about obesity? It seems logical to me that that might be a major contributing factor.

http://www.nature.com/bdj/journal/v200/n5/full/4813397a.html

http://www.nature.com/bdj/journal/v199/n5/full/4812738a.html

http://jdr.sagepub.com/content/86/5/400.full

http://www.joponline.org/doi/abs/10.1902/jop.2010.100274?prevSearch=allfield%253A%2528obesity%2529&searchHistoryKey=

http://www.joponline.org/doi/abs/10.1902/jop.2009.080621?prevSearch=allfield%253A%2528obesity%2529&searchHistoryKey=

http://jdr.sagepub.com/content/90/2/199.abstract

http://www.idjonline.org/view.php?article_id=275&journal_id=41

(Sorry about the improper citations)

Thank you for your humble opinion. I respect it. But I do not agree with it. My motto, as always, is "question authority" and "question, question, question". In all disney movies, in songs all over the different genres, everywhere I hear "Things are not what they seem." I believe this whole-heartedly. Never take things at face value. Never.

As someone else has mentioned, it is strange that you would choose fluoride to speak out against. Why not sodium or trans fats?

Edited February 26, 2011 by Cybele

[danielost]

i cant believe that someone on here tried to compare a vitamin to a poison,.

[ShadowSot]

i cant believe that someone on here tried to compare a vitamin to a poison,.

I can. Different chemicals and compounds are utilized by the body that common sense would label as poison or non food.

Like iron or chlorine, for example.

[danielost]

I can. Different chemicals and compounds are utilized by the body that common sense would label as poison or non food.

Like iron or chlorine, for example.

iron is used to transport 02. chlorine is only used in the form of salt(as far as i know), which helps to move electricity around the body. flouride is just a poison, which we use to strength teeth. i dont believe our stomachs and intestines are designed to process it, which is what we are demanding they do when we put it in water.

[Copasetic]

iron is used to transport 02. chlorine is only used in the form of salt(as far as i know), which helps to move electricity around the body. flouride is just a poison, which we use to strength teeth. i dont believe our stomachs and intestines are designed to process it, which is what we are demanding they do when we put it in water.

I understand why so many people are leaving GP/FP these days because of troubling patients and encounters. Between non-compliance, lack of discipline and patients who think they know everything about medicine (when in fact they know so little, they can't even tell how little they know), is it little wonder those specialties are rapidly being depleted.

Let's just do it like a list, shall we?

1. You'll note, had you actually dawned your comprehension skills, that what I was comparing in my post was the implementation of public health measures. Let me relay that again; puhb-lik helth mezh-ers.

As hard as it maybe to imagine for you, there is a whole working group of people who's job is the concern over public health. Why? Because PH is important to the functioning of society. For an interesting case study of how an "unhealthy public" can really affect society, please read about hook works and the South!

2. Despite your uneducated claims that F is only a "poison", it is--in reality, a micronutrient. The body needs it to help percipient hydroxyapatite crystalline formation and for deposition of hydroxyapatite on organocollagen matrix. I'm not going to explain hydroxyapatite chemistry to you, that would be a waste of my time and yours.

3. You know as much about iron (Fe) and chlorine (Cl) as you do about F. You could of course, look into all the biochemistry and uses of Fe and Cl and the myriad number of things they are used for as well (by the way they are both "poisons" as well, too much Fe causes hemochromatosis and too much Cl can cause a wide range of health effects--In fact, we use Cl as an antimicrobial, because chlorinated compounds are dangerous to life (all life)). In fact, all halides (please look that word up if you don't know what it means) are "poisons". Regardless the body needs them, the only real exception to this seems to be Br.

Here we are, a few years later, and you've still yet to grasp the idea of dosage-dependency.

4. As for our "stomachs and intestines" processing F, you could of course look through some of the studies I've posted up numerous times now. Specifically looking under the section entitled bioavailability/pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics. You may want to look at the studies that use words like "clearance" and "excretion" as well.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Copasetic

[danielost]

I understand why so many people are leaving GP/FP these days because of troubling patients and encounters. Between non-compliance, lack of discipline and patients who think they know everything about medicine (when in fact they know so little, they can't even tell how little they know), is it little wonder those specialties are rapidly being depleted.

Let's just do it like a list, shall we?

1. You'll note, had you actually dawned your comprehension skills, that what I was comparing in my post was the implementation of public health measures. Let me relay that again; puhb-lik helth mezh-ers.

As hard as it maybe to imagine for you, there is a whole working group of people who's job is the concern over public health. Why? Because PH is important to the functioning of society. For an interesting case study of how an "unhealthy public" can really affect society, please read about hook works and the South!

2. Despite your uneducated claims that F is only a "poison", it is--in reality, a micronutrient. The body needs it to help percipient hydroxyapatite crystalline formation and for deposition of hydroxyapatite on organocollagen matrix. I'm not going to explain hydroxyapatite chemistry to you, that would be a waste of my time and yours.

3. You know as much about iron (Fe) and chlorine (Cl) as you do about F. You could of course, look into all the biochemistry and uses of Fe and Cl and the myriad number of things they are used for as well (by the way they are both "poisons" as well, too much Fe causes hemochromatosis and too much Cl can cause a wide range of health effects--In fact, we use Cl as an antimicrobial, because chlorinated compounds are dangerous to life (all life)). In fact, all halides (please look that word up if you don't know what it means) are "poisons". Regardless the body needs them, the only real exception to this seems to be Br.

Here we are, a few years later, and you've still yet to grasp the idea of dosage-dependency.

4. As for our "stomachs and intestines" processing F, you could of course look through some of the studies I've posted up numerous times now. Specifically looking under the section entitled bioavailability/pharmacokinetics/pharmacodynamics. You may want to look at the studies that use words like "clearance" and "excretion" as well.

no this is just another case of government knows best. dispute it being a poison and a bad one. did you ever read the back of your toothpaste. you know the little warning that states if you swallow a pea sized amount call poison control. so tell me how much do we get in a day from drinking tap water, how much in a week, in a month. and how much do we get rid of in those times. your the doctor you should know those answers without looking them up,

o2 is a poison, funny how we are dependent on so many poisons. but why do we want to add more poisons to our system.

[Copasetic]

no this is just another case of government knows best. dispute it being a poison and a bad one. did you ever read the back of your toothpaste. you know the little warning that states if you swallow a pea sized amount call poison control. so tell me how much do we get in a day from drinking tap water, how much in a week, in a month. and how much do we get rid of in those times. your the doctor you should know those answers without looking them up,

o2 is a poison, funny how we are dependent on so many poisons. but why do we want to add more poisons to our system.

[psychoticmike]

my main concern is the amount we may be consuming. Out of all the sources of fluoride are we absolutely sure we are not getting to much? growth of food, processing of food, swimming, drinking, bathing, etc. are you telling me all of these sources combined are not having a negative effect on human health? the fluoride is to diluted to cause any harm? the other thing that bothers me is the lack of choice in this matter, it is similar to drugs we all know drugs are bad, but imo they should not be illegal it simply should not be up to the government to decide what i can and can't put in my own body, but this is the opposite instead of being told i can't put something in my body, i am being told i have to put something in my body and i have absolutely no choice in the matter because once fluoride is in the public water you can't ever truly escape it or avoid it because almost all food will have it and nearly all beverages will to so with that all said, is the concentration really nothing to worry about? theres no possibility we are getting to much because of those sources?

[regeneratia]

New Study: Fluoride Can Damage the Brain - Avoid Use in Children

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-study-fluoride-can-damage-the-brain---avoid-use-in-children-124299299.html

NEW YORK, June 21, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- "The prolonged ingestion of fluoride may cause significant damage to health and particularly to the nervous system," concludes a review of studies by researchers Valdez-Jimenez, et al. published in Neurologia (June 2011), reports New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation, Inc. (NYSCOF).

The research team reports, "It is important to be aware of this serious problem and avoid the use of toothpaste and items that contain fluoride, particularly in children as they are more susceptible to the toxic effects of fluoride." (1)

"Fluoride can be toxic by ingesting one part per million (ppm), and the effects are not immediate, as they can take 20 years or more to become evident," they write.

Most fluoridating U.S. public drinking water suppliers add fluoride chemicals to deliver 1 ppm fluoride (equal to about 1 milligram per quart) intending to benefit teeth and not to purify the water.

"Fluoridation clearly jeopardizes our children and must be stopped," says attorney Paul Beeber, President, NYSCOF. "We can actually see how fluoride has damaged children's teeth with dental fluorosis; but we can't see the harm it's doing to their brains and other organs. No U.S. researcher is even looking," says Beeber.

[+DieChecker]

....reports New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation, Inc. (NYSCOF).

I'm sure dispite the name of their organization they did their research impartially?

"Fluoridation clearly jeopardizes our children and must be stopped," says attorney Paul Beeber, President, NYSCOF. "We can actually see how fluoride has damaged children's teeth with dental fluorosis; but we can't see the harm it's doing to their brains and other organs. No U.S. researcher is even looking," says Beeber.

Valdez-Jimenez, et al. describe studies that show fluoride induces changes in the brain's physical structure and biochemistry which affects the neurological and mental development of individuals including cognitive processes, such as learning and memory.

Apparenly the stars of this claim is the Valdez-Jimenez Study that was published in June 2011 in Neurologia, a spanish language Journal that I'm having some trouble finding out where it comes out of. I think the whole name is Neurologia medico-chirurgica.

I'll wait till US researchers cooborate the data before saying this is a decent idea.

Personnally I think there is no need for fluoridated water and that if fluoride is needed, you should go get it from the Pharmacy.

[Rafterman]

New Study: Fluoride Can Damage the Brain - Avoid Use in Children

http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/new-study-fluoride-can-damage-the-brain---avoid-use-in-children-124299299.html

NEW YORK, June 21, 2011 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- "The prolonged ingestion of fluoride may cause significant damage to health and particularly to the nervous system," concludes a review of studies by researchers Valdez-Jimenez, et al. published in Neurologia (June 2011), reports New York State Coalition Opposed to Fluoridation, Inc. (NYSCOF).

The research team reports, "It is important to be aware of this serious problem and avoid the use of toothpaste and items that contain fluoride, particularly in children as they are more susceptible to the toxic effects of fluoride." (1)

"Fluoride can be toxic by ingesting one part per million (ppm), and the effects are not immediate, as they can take 20 years or more to become evident," they write.

Most fluoridating U.S. public drinking water suppliers add fluoride chemicals to deliver 1 ppm fluoride (equal to about 1 milligram per quart) intending to benefit teeth and not to purify the water.

"Fluoridation clearly jeopardizes our children and must be stopped," says attorney Paul Beeber, President, NYSCOF. "We can actually see how fluoride has damaged children's teeth with dental fluorosis; but we can't see the harm it's doing to their brains and other organs. No U.S. researcher is even looking," says Beeber.

So I'm assuming they looked at the long term health of the tens of thousands of individuals around the world who live in areas where water has high levels of naturally occuring fluoride? Texas Teeth anyone?

[regeneratia]

Dr. Ron Paul:

"The federal government should have zero...nothing to do with the promotion of fluoridation unless its on a military base...and hopefully there they would do the right thing. So no, federal fluoride promotion shouldn't exist, they shouldn't be telling you or anyone else what should happen because even though it was well intended at the time--I remember that I thought it was a bad principle because in a way it was massive treatment--and at the time everybody accepted the idea that fluoride was great and that you would never get a cavity and there was no downside, now there is a big question, that's why you don't want government doing these kinds of things. You or I should decide, someone should give us bottled water with fluoride, or we should have the ability to buy water with fluoride, but we should not have the federal government promoting fluoridation...sometimes their right, most of the time their wrong. They shouldn't have the authority to do this. Especially with the information out there now about fluoride, I would do my best to stop federal involvement with state and local fluoride decisions."

Ron Paul is a physician trained in obstetrics and gynecology and has been a U.S. Congressman representing the Houston area of Texas for over 20 years. He has run for President twice before, has multiple best selling books, and has a very large and loyal following across the United States.

[regeneratia]

So I'm assuming they looked at the long term health of the tens of thousands of individuals around the world who live in areas where water has high levels of naturally occuring fluoride? Texas Teeth anyone?

I am not assuming anything.

[Rafterman]

I am not assuming anything.

You're assuming that Ron Paul knows what in the hell he's talking about and isn't simply pandering to the kook fringe that support him.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Rafterman

[psychoticmike]

You're assuming that Ron Paul knows what in the hell he's talking about and isn't simply pandering to the kook fringe that support him.

thats a valid point but the decision should still be left up to the individual whether they want fluoride or not! instead you are forced to consume it in high quantities every single day and you have no say in it, and now there is plenty of research saying it is bad in high quantities, the fda says we are not getting it in high enough doses but this is coming from a corrupt agency that approves drugs and then you later see on the tv those drugs being recalled because they are killing people and causing heart attacks etc. so clearly they were wrong when they studied the effects of those drugs, so they can also be wrong about the proper amount of fluoride! don't believe me about the corruption?

check this link out

Scientists inform Obama of Corruption at the FDA

[Little Fish]

New study - fluoride consumption leads to brain damage

"The prolonged ingestion of fluoride may cause significant damage to health and particularly the nervous system," write researchers Valdez-Jiminez, et al. in their report. "Fluoride is capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier, which may cause biochemical and functional changes in the nervous system during pregnancy, since the fluoride accumulates in brain tissue before birth."

http://www.naturalnews.com/032957_fluoride_brain_damage.html

[regeneratia]

You're assuming that Ron Paul knows what in the hell he's talking about and isn't simply pandering to the kook fringe that support him.

Is there anything in that post that indicates that I am assuming anything?

He is pro-life. He will never get my vote.

[regeneratia]

thats a valid point but the decision should still be left up to the individual whether they want fluoride or not! instead you are forced to consume it in high quantities every single day and you have no say in it, and now there is plenty of research saying it is bad in high quantities, the fda says we are not getting it in high enough doses but this is coming from a corrupt agency that approves drugs and then you later see on the tv those drugs being recalled because they are killing people and causing heart attacks etc. so clearly they were wrong when they studied the effects of those drugs, so they can also be wrong about the proper amount of fluoride! don't believe me about the corruption?

check this link out

Scientists inform Obama of Corruption at the FDA

They didn't mention how we are getting the fluoride. Is it all measured by ingestion? What about the topical applications of fluoridated tap water? What about the fluoridated water vapors we breathe in when we shower? Surely they have to count.

I saw that when it came out. Von E was a crook!! (head of the FDA during the Bush years, where I paid close attention to him due to the plight of Provenge.)

Edited July 16, 2011 by regeneratia

[psychoticmike]

They didn't mention how we are getting the fluoride. Is it all measured by ingestion?

no i think its all measured in parts per million, and how much is in the water itself

What about the topical applications of fluoridated tap water? What about the fluoridated water vapors we breathe in when we shower? Surely they have to count.

yep like i said thats what concerns me the most, is all the sources there are so many sources people dont even realize, fluoride is in pills, cosmetics, deodorants, pop, water, all food, because its in the water, just about everything has fluoride in it! oh and your toothpaste of course! so with all these sources combined plus many more we are safe and it is still not high enough to cause any problems? but yet theres enough fluoride in just the tap water to help our teeth? not buying it!

I saw that when it came out. Von E was a crook!! (head of the FDA during the Bush years, where I paid close attention to him due to the plight of Provenge.)

[psychoticmike]

one more thing if its in the tap water, wouldn't some of that water make its way to lakes, rivers, and oceans? if so what happens when we have fog? or humidity? could that potentially cause the fluoride to turn into a gaseous state and float through the air in that fog? if thats the case then thats yet another huge source of exposure! but this is just speculation i don't know if that process happens or is possible.

[+DieChecker]

New study - fluoride consumption leads to brain damage

"The prolonged ingestion of fluoride may cause significant damage to health and particularly the nervous system," write researchers Valdez-Jiminez, et al. in their report. "Fluoride is capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier, which may cause biochemical and functional changes in the nervous system during pregnancy, since the fluoride accumulates in brain tissue before birth."

http://www.naturalnews.com/032957_fluoride_brain_damage.html

That would be interesting, except it comes from the same Source as the articles a few posts back.

A new study published in the journal Neurologia reveals that chronic exposure to, and ingestion of, the synthetic fluoride chemicals added to water supplies can cause serious brain and neurological damage.

...

"The prolonged ingestion of fluoride may cause significant damage to health and particularly the nervous system," write researchers Valdez-Jiminez, et al. in their report.

I can't find this Neurologia magazine online, though and I find it only Quoted extensively only in reference to this one floride article.

Also I was not able to find out who "Valdez-Jiminez, et al" is. No first names, no university or corporate associations.

If anyone finds out something more, like who these guys are, or an online copy of the Actual article, not just people quoting it, please post links. Because I would like to read them.

[+DieChecker]

one more thing if its in the tap water, wouldn't some of that water make its way to lakes, rivers, and oceans? if so what happens when we have fog? or humidity? could that potentially cause the fluoride to turn into a gaseous state and float through the air in that fog? if thats the case then thats yet another huge source of exposure! but this is just speculation i don't know if that process happens or is possible.

That seems possible, but to the extent that water vapor is itself measured in parts per million, you'd need to breath fog/vapor 24/7 in a rapid manner in order to equal just a single days worth of drinking tap water in a year of breathing. Same with the shower, I would suppose. Floride absorbed through the skin also would be very insignificant, as people usually are in for what... 10 to 20 minutes. With water actually resting on the person for a lot less. I'd be a lot more concerned about food.

[Little Fish]

That would be interesting, except it comes from the same Source as the articles a few posts back.

I can't find this Neurologia magazine online, though and I find it only Quoted extensively only in reference to this one floride article.

Also I was not able to find out who "Valdez-Jiminez, et al" is. No first names, no university or corporate associations.

If anyone finds out something more, like who these guys are, or an online copy of the Actual article, not just people quoting it, please post links. Because I would like to read them.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0213485310003191#aff0005

Introduction

Fluoride (F) is a toxic and reactive element, and exposure to it passes almost unnoticed, with the consumption of tea, fish, meat, fruits, etcetera and articles of common use such as: toothpaste additives; dental gels, non-stick pans and razor blades as Teflon. It has also been used with the intention of reducing the dental cares.

Development

Fluoride can accumulate in the body, and it has been shown that continuous exposure to it causes damaging effects on body tissues, particularly the nervous system directly without any previous physical malformations.

Background

Several clinical and experimental studies have reported that the F induces changes in cerebral morphology and biochemistry that affect the neurological development of individuals as well as cognitive processes, such as learning and memory. F can be toxic by ingesting one part per million (ppm), and the effects they are not immediate, as they can take 20 years or more to become evident.

Conclusion

The prolonged ingestion of F may cause significant damage to health and particularly to the nervous system. Therefore, it is important to be aware of this serious problem and avoid the use of toothpaste and items that contain F, particularly in children as they are more susceptible to the toxic effects of F.

http://www.elsevier.es/sites/default/files/elsevier/eop/S0213-4853(10)00319-1.pdf

[regeneratia]

As i have said before, when I went to my local government to talk about not fluoridating the tap water, I learned what the city officials position was, that the CDC oversaw what he was doing. But I found out also that he had the autonomy to lower the levels to the lowest levels possible, with very few people knowing it. He also told me that recently the price for Fluoride had doubled, so now was the time to act on it. I asked him to lower it to almost nothing, study the dental statistics due to that action, and take the risk that the CDC, already too busy to monitor every city, would not assess our levels. I left after telling him he would not hear from me again. I will not look to see if he lowered the levels. I knew that the cost of fluoridation was already a big concern for him, and with the city hurting for money, I knew that he would act in a totally responsible level.

IOW, I liked the guy and trusted him.

[+DieChecker]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0213485310003191#aff0005

Introduction

Fluoride (F) is a toxic and reactive element, and exposure to it passes almost unnoticed, with the consumption of tea, fish, meat, fruits, etcetera and articles of common use such as: toothpaste additives; dental gels, non-stick pans and razor blades as Teflon. It has also been used with the intention of reducing the dental cares.

Development

Fluoride can accumulate in the body, and it has been shown that continuous exposure to it causes damaging effects on body tissues, particularly the nervous system directly without any previous physical malformations.

Background

Several clinical and experimental studies have reported that the F induces changes in cerebral morphology and biochemistry that affect the neurological development of individuals as well as cognitive processes, such as learning and memory. F can be toxic by ingesting one part per million (ppm), and the effects they are not immediate, as they can take 20 years or more to become evident.

Conclusion

The prolonged ingestion of F may cause significant damage to health and particularly to the nervous system. Therefore, it is important to be aware of this serious problem and avoid the use of toothpaste and items that contain F, particularly in children as they are more susceptible to the toxic effects of F.

http://www.elsevier.es/sites/default/files/elsevier/eop/S0213-4853(10)00319-1.pdf

While I admit all of that is true. It is also still true of hundreds of thousands of other chemicals, and every one has studies done under extremely controlled situations that indicate what levels are sustainably safe.

It is a matter of amount of exposure over time. Fringe literature insists that it is possibly more dangerous then is currently understood. Which I agree is possible, but unlikely. At least in my logical, partly educated (Medically) Opinion.