48 replies to this topic

[Alan McDougall]

HI, Do you think it is possible to prove the existence of God,

To bounce off the topic read the letter I wrote sometime ago to my atheistic sibling

letter to an atheist by Alan McDougall

Is there a reason for living that goes beyond that of our earthly mortal life on earth? I say there is, how you can be so sure that there beyond life. Why not just try to consider that there just might be a god. Life after death is unfortunately something neither I nor someone else can ever prove to

I, however, strongly believe we continue to exist in some form or other in dimensions of purpose, reason, beauty and that our consciousness continues to exist eternally after death. Otherwise our earthly fleeting life is nothing but a cruel joke of nature

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

A billion trillion complex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion  airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahala or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch
I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own experiment if you like

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can't, can I of course I can't, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. the great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

In the early morning go and listen to the sounds of nature, birds chirping like tiny electrons in the mind of god. The wind that you breathe the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth.

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Even atheism scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

What do you people believe, No god or God

[_Only]

Alan McDougall, on 10 February 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

Think this is the backbone of many peoples personal belief and faith foundation of God. There is a want and/or need to feel that there is a purpose for their life, and a God who created it.

I can't see proof of God being dug out from all that we have now. But the sky is the limit on things happening in the future, to give proof of His existence.

I personally am open to the possibility of there being a God, but with all of the complete mess of all these religions, and all the misinformation, and negative aspects tied to them, I just have too much of a problem believing any of these religions.

[Rlyeh]

Didn't you post something like this before?

Perhaps instead of writing letters full of logical fallacies, you could educate yourself. For example "how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA", do you know what the word infinitely means? Sounds like you're also throwing out genetic mutation.

And then you invoke appeal to beauty, this letter is the furthest thing from logical.


What was your sibling's response to this letter?

Edited by Rlyeh, 10 February 2012 - 11:10 AM.

[ParanormallyJustARedNeck]

I'd like to think that one day science and God can be reconciled but I don't know that it's actually possible. I too believe in a God but I have a different view on it than most. I speculate that instead of a divine being who sits back and tinkers with the universe and all of creation and works towards an outcome and purpose known only to divinty's self that all of creation actually composes and makes up God,like single living cells combine to make up a larger living entity, that the laws of physics and nature exist within God or at least the 'mind' of God. Therefore I'm not sure that it's proveable simply becuase we have no mechanism for observing anything outside the realm of our own dimensions.
There is a book called "The God Theory" by Bernard Haisch, great book for anyone, like myself who believes in science and God.

[aquatus1]

Alan McDougall, on 10 February 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

HI, Do you think it is possible to prove the existence of God,

I cannot say that it is possible to prove the existence of God until someone shows me what exactly it is that we are supposed to be proving.  Proofs (and I am assuming that we are referring to either empirical or logical proofs), require a specifically defined phenomena.  "God" is not a specifically defined phenomena.

It's like saying "Do you think it is possible to prove the Existence of Bob?"

Now, in regards to this letter, which (again, I am assuming it was posted here because it was an attempt to provide proof of some kind)

Quote

To bounce off the topic read the letter I wrote sometime ago to my atheistic sibling
letter to an atheist by Alan McDougall

Is there a reason for living that goes beyond that of our earthly mortal life on earth? I say there is, how you can be so sure that there beyond life.  Why not just try to consider that there just might be a god. Life after  death is unfortunately something neither I nor someone else can ever  prove to

Okay, so apparently life beyond death, or life beyond life, afterlife, whatever we are calling it, is a sign of God?  How so?

I am willing to accept the existence of an after life provisionally, in order to determine the argument for God, but I do need to know the relevance and significance of it in the argument.

Quote

I, however, strongly believe we continue to exist in some form or other in dimensions of purpose, reason, beauty and that our consciousness continues to exist eternally after death. Otherwise our earthly fleeting life is nothing but a cruel joke of nature

Well, can't really see your logic there, but as far as opinions go, okay, it is your opinion and you are entitled to it.  What, exactly, does it have to do with proof of God?  I have assumed the existence of the afterlife (for the purposes of this argument), so I don't need a reason for it just yet, but I do what to know the unique connection between it and God.

Quote

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

Actually, when you think about it, atheism requires less faith (specifically, only one, if that) and rationalization doesn't play any part in it.  Rationalization, by definition, is finding a reason for something that is currently creating some sort of dissonance.  A belief in nothing, or a lack of belief, doesn't have anything to rationalize, because there is no conflict that causes dissonance.

But, again, I am not seeing how this refers to proving God.

Quote

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

What logic are you referring to?  What facts are you talking about?  How do they relate to proof of God?

Quote

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

If we are measuring Earth in cosmological time, we also have to mention that the Earth itself isn't even close to the oldest kid on the block.

Quote

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

Nor the universe.  Which includes God.

Quote

A billion trillion complex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets.

True.

Quote

Another analogy, if we took a billion  airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahala or the Sydney Opera house?

No.

Quote

But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

If your brother beliefs there is some scientific theory that states this, he is grievously mistaken.

But, I somehow suspect that he does not.

Look, I was going to go through the rest, but in all honesty, there hasn't been a single sentence yet that isn't either an argument from incredulity, an argument from ignorance, or an emotional appeal.  If you want to talk about proofs, fine, but you got to come up with something a little better than some broken science and a fairly complex "I really, really, believe this!"

[Seeker79]

I think the existence of a divine like being can be made at least logically probable. The key to a good theory is if it can make testable predictioons in which the results of those tests support the theory.

[aquatus1]

The key is to define the phenomena to begin with.  No phenomena, no theory to explain it.

[Beckys_Mom]

Alan McDougall, on 10 February 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

HI, Do you think it is possible to prove the existence of God,

No

[Seeker79]

aquatus1, on 10 February 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

The key is to define the phenomena to begin with.  No phenomena, no theory to explain it.

Your wrong. There is a phenomenon. Many people experience the divine. That experience is a phenomenon.

[Robbie333]

Alan McDougall, on 10 February 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

HI, Do you think it is possible to prove the existence of God,

To bounce off the topic read the letter I wrote sometime ago to my atheistic sibling

letter to an atheist by Alan McDougall

Is there a reason for living that goes beyond that of our earthly mortal life on earth? I say there is, how you can be so sure that there beyond life. Why not just try to consider that there just might be a god. Life after death is unfortunately something neither I nor someone else can ever prove to

I, however, strongly believe we continue to exist in some form or other in dimensions of purpose, reason, beauty and that our consciousness continues to exist eternally after death. Otherwise our earthly fleeting life is nothing but a cruel joke of nature

Have you ever thought that to be an absolute atheist takes more faith and is more difficult to rationalize than one like me who believes there is a creator? How could nothing evolve from nothing and become everything?

This logic demand that dark nothing morphed into everything, nothing created energy time matter and finally life out of inanimate energy. I see this as a ridiculous assumption; I am left to believe that all existence including mysterious life evolved without reason or purpose. Do you really believe this as a fact?

Let us consider, what life is, how could the unimaginable almost infinitely complex molecule DNA of life came into existence so quickly in relation to cosmological time. Life existed on the primordial earth just a moment after its creation, again in cosmological time?

The universe is unimaginable complex and sustains itself by exact precise fundamental constants, if this harmony differed in the infinitesimal fraction we would simply not exist; indeed the earth itself would not exist.

A billion trillion complex monkeys typing for eternity would not produce even one of Shakespeare sonnets. Another analogy, if we took a billion  airplanes, filled them with water, concrete and bricks and dumped the whole continuously on the earth for a billion years, would it magically and randomly form the beautiful Taj Mahala or the Sydney Opera house? But you insist I must accept the beautiful universe a of unimaginable precision came into existence this illogical way

When life needs to evolve due to changing circumstances, does it tell itself to alter its own DNA for the new conditions or could there be a watch maker resetting the watch
I see god adjusting the DNA overlooking his own experiment if you like

Our breathtaking beautiful is expanding and anything that expands must have a beginning. Can you prove there is no god of course you can't, can I of course I can't, but at least I can offer circumstantial evidence... Atheism is a faith belief system just like anything that requires belief without evidence.

As an amateur astronomer leaves me with an unshakable belief that am awesome intellect created the universe and everything else

Look out the sparking water that quenches your thirst, the fruit that feeds you, and invigorated your body. There is beauty everywhere and you must search for real ugliness. Go outside on a moonless night and reflect on the wonder of the cosmos that sparkles above you. the great snow capped mountains and streams, the blue sky and the rise of the sun at dawn and its golden glow as it sets.

In the early morning go and listen to the sounds of nature, birds chirping like tiny electrons in the mind of god. The wind that you breathe the precious nourishment supplied by mother earth.

Then explain to me how chance can bring this all about. To me there is a wonderful creative behind all this glory if only we would look at it.

Like all things the universe has a beginning and this demands a creator, for nothing can exist with a prime cause. The universe will end but for that we will just have to wait

Even atheism scientists say our universe is precise, ordered with beautiful mathematical constants. One great astronomer said the universe was less like a great well oiled machine and more like a beautiful ongoing thought

I believe in God, what you believe is your right but to me a godless creation is bleak and cold

What do you people believe, No god or God

           It has been through my heart, not my head. This post will go nowhere you know. People getting all pissed off for nothing. Each of us has to travel and find these kind of things on their own spiritual path. JMO

[Roy Perry]

God first

thanks Allan

you have not prove anything nor can I

Atheist is just unbelief in a God

you are part Atheist in the things you fight to overcome

you are part Christian in the love that you see

an Atheist has love and a Christian has some unbelief

no one is without sin

with love and a holy kiss Roy

[and then]

Alan the Creator Himself inspired the words of Hebrews 11:6

"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him"

If His existence can be proven empirically then who would need faith?  Long before the Lord Jesus came to us Abraham was justified by the Father because he had FAITH.  Not works or wisdom but simply faith enough to follow the commands of God.
I submit to you that as Christians we try to take too much on ourselves when we labor at convincing others through "proofs" that God is real.
I believe we should be able to defend our faith by citing relevant scripture but beyond that it is impossible to change a mind or heart that is not being called by God.  JMO

[Orcseeker]

Like what I said in another recent, similar thread, you can niether disprove or prove the existence of God. Though based on what I have observed and what I know I have no reason to believe at all.

[Orcseeker]

Seeker79, on 10 February 2012 - 12:44 PM, said:

I think the existence of a divine like being can be made at least logically probable. The key to a good theory is if it can make testable predictioons in which the results of those tests support the theory.

I don't think any logic of ours can suggest it to be probable at all.

[karmakazi]

ParanormallyJustARedNeck, on 10 February 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

I'd like to think that one day science and God can be reconciled but I don't know that it's actually possible. I too believe in a God but I have a different view on it than most. I speculate that instead of a divine being who sits back and tinkers with the universe and all of creation and works towards an outcome and purpose known only to divinty's self that all of creation actually composes and makes up God,like single living cells combine to make up a larger living entity, that the laws of physics and nature exist within God or at least the 'mind' of God. Therefore I'm not sure that it's proveable simply becuase we have no mechanism for observing anything outside the realm of our own dimensions.

This is my viewpoint as well, verbatim.