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Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]


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#1111    Otharus

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 06:53 AM

View PostOtharus, on 25 September 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

"Thus you would not risk a mistake if you would use 'foreign kings' for 'poppa koningen'."

Also, note that on the same page (letter frok Liko) PAPEKAPPE is used for what is (thus far) generally interpreted as "popecap", that would refer to monks.


#1112    Knul

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:51 PM

View PostOtharus, on 25 September 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

That is a very oldfashioned term.
Most people would understand that as "hun _ lieden" (their people), while it means (in modern Dutch) "hen" or "ze" (them).
It is oldfashioned mid 19th c. To avoid misunderstandings the word is written without space.


#1113    Otharus

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostKnul, on 26 September 2012 - 03:51 PM, said:

It is oldfashioned mid 19th c. To avoid misunderstandings the word is written without space.

Your generation will have less problems with understanding that word correctly, than mine.

Translation is always a matter of taste.

I think of making one some day that is much more about interpretation and less about staying close to the original vocabulary and syntax.

The archaic style of the translators from Ottema till Jensma may be one of the reasons why the OLB is not more popular.


#1114    Van Gorp

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 08:04 PM

View PostOtharus, on 26 September 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

Also, note that on the same page (letter frok Liko) PAPEKAPPE is used for what is (thus far) generally interpreted as "popecap", that would refer to monks.

Hi Otharus,

Some coincidence concerning papekappe and monks -> pape's keppe -> friend of pape
keppe

(de ~ (v.), -n)
schatje, vriendin, vriend
< WNT: znw. m., vr., mv. -n. Volgens Debrabandere is keppe de stam van mnl. keefse, kevesch, du. kebse `bijzit’. Verwant aan du. käfig, wvl. keve `kooi’.
Een keppe is dan `iemand die samenhokt, bijzit, geliefde’.
– (Vl.-België, inz. W.-Vl.) Iemand die men lief heeft; voor wie men voorkeur heeft; lieveling.
Siska is al twee jaar mijn keppe. Met haar wil ik oud worden.


#1115    Otharus

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 09:46 PM

Aha!!!

Brilliant Van Gorp, congratulations.

Also see
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...lemmodern=keppe
and
http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...lemmodern=kappe

"Papenvriendje" (disparaging term for monks, something like "papist's pal" or "-buddy"?) totally makes sense.

I always thought it referred to something they wear on their heads.



Edited by Otharus, 26 September 2012 - 10:04 PM.


#1116    Otharus

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 10:22 PM

Or... much better stil:

A catamite of the pope (schandknaap van de paus).

Hilarious!

Van Gorp, this is a major breakthrough.


#1117    Abramelin

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 08:22 AM

The word is also used for part of a wall of those late medieval fortifications/bastions in the form of a star.

Papekap.jpg

http://www.collectie...n=mediatheek&q=


Posted Image


It does look like a mitre, or 'papekap (pope's cap').

Posted Image


.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 September 2012 - 08:57 AM.


#1118    Otharus

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Posted 28 September 2012 - 01:20 PM

Good find, Abe.

I asked a fellow student from Westflanders and he knew the word 'keppe'.
It is still used for someone very dear (liefje, schatje; darling or very good friend).

So two interpretations are possible.

1. PAPEKAPPE = hat of bishop or pope (mitre).
In our language, it is common to refer to someone that one does not respect, by reducing him to an external characteristic, for example "dat kapsel" (that hairdo), or "dat gekke hoedje" (that silly hat).
Questionable would be if monks wore something that looked like a mitre.
Or did Liko mean "don't let a bishop look at the writings"? Possible, but I don't think so.

2. PAPEKAPPE = -KEPPE = friend, sweetheart or even catamite of the pope.
In this case it could be a strong invective to any representative of the (Roman Catholic) Church, including monks.
The word would perfectly voice the feelings Liko must have had for what he will have seen as dangerous traitors; collaborators with the enemy, destroyers of his culture.

By simply translating PAPEKAPPE as "monk", something important gets lost, imo; the fact that LIKO used a nickname, that probably expressed some very negative feelings.

Edited by Otharus, 28 September 2012 - 01:21 PM.


#1119    Otharus

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:53 PM

To provide some context to the time when Liko 'Oera Linda' wrote his preliminary letter (unnumbered second page of OLB) in 803 CE, here are some names of the rulers:

pope of Rome
(795 - 816) Leo III, crowned Charlemagne in 800 as Roman emperor.

Carolingian emperor
(800 - 814) Charlemagne, subdued the Frisians after a 3 year "bloody war" (wiki), between 783 and 785. He was also King of the Franks (768-814) and of the Lombards (774-814).

bishop of Utrecht
(ca. 790 - 806) Hamacarus, only his name is known.

Liko wrote that he had "been at their court" (IK HAV BY THAM ET HOVE WÉST).
Where would that have been?
Rome, Noyon, Utrecht?

Edited by Otharus, 29 September 2012 - 07:22 PM.


#1120    Otharus

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 07:59 PM

And these were the relevant rulers in 1256 CE, when Hidde 'Oera Linda' wrote his OLB-copy and letter to his son Okke:

pope of Rome
(1254 - 1261) Alexander IV; time of conspiracies and instability.

Roman (German) emperor
No official emperor between 1254 and 1312. Willem II of Holland was crowned as king.

bishop of Utrecht
(1249 - 1267) Hendrik I van Vianden, he supported Willem II of Holland, but the latter exploited the conflicts between Hendrik and the nobility of Utrecht at his own advantage.

count of Holland
(1234 - 1256) Willem II of Holland, was supposed to be crowned as Roman emperor, but died miserably (fell through ice) at Hoogwoud, when he tried to subdue the Westfrisians.
His son and successor Floris V was only 2 years old in 1256, so the nobility will practically have ruled until he was 12 years old (1266). Floris made his first strike against the Westfrisians in 1272 (which he lost).


#1121    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 02:21 AM

I'll give you my 2c in the papekappe thing.

The word for Catholic derives from kata - the whole. The word for kappa you are not seeing is COVER/CLOAK=CAPE that is your kappe.


Papekappe can mean Catholic imo. Pope's whole (congregation) friends (kappe-van gorp) ie; bishop, monks  etc.

Catholic was not a word in 803AD. Papekappe would be an early form of the word we now use for Catholic.

kappe means cape/cloak and that covers one's whole body - it also alludes to hiding something, hidden, sneaky - cloak and dagger, cloaking device ie; Star Trek.

It means the whole in the context. The body of Catholics, which were once mostly monks and the like.


It's no co-incidence the Pope wears a cloak.

pape kappe = pope's cape - pope's cloak - pope's 'whole body' of people - the Pope's friends - the pope's whole = Catholics.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 September 2012 - 02:46 AM.

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#1122    Otharus

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 05:57 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 02:21 AM, said:

The word for kappa you are not seeing is COVER/CLOAK=CAPE that is your kappe.

Kap/ cap (related to Latin caput = head ~ supposedly the origin of the word cape) was how I understood it before (as did the other translators, I suppose).

View PostOtharus, on 26 September 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

I always thought it referred to something they wear on their heads.

But in the meaning of good friend or lover it makes a much more sense to me, as it would (imo) more adequately express the feelings Liko must have had for them. Mind you... I was raised with exactly those sentiments towards Catholics. They are deeply rooted in Westfrisian culture.

I would not say though that your interpretation cannot be right.

Edited by Otharus, 30 September 2012 - 06:01 AM.


#1123    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:11 AM

View PostOtharus, on 30 September 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Kap/ cap (related to Latin caput = head ~ supposedly the origin of the word cape) was how I understood it before (as did the other translators, I suppose).



But in the meaning of good friend or lover it makes a much more sense to me, as it would (imo) more adequately express the feelings Liko must have had for them. Mind you... I was raised with exactly those sentiments towards Catholics. They are deeply rooted in Westfrisian culture.

I would not say though that your interpretation cannot be right.

You should note that cap has no e on it - the word kappe is related to cape not cap - even though cape does indeed come from cap.

It is friend, like van gorp said, I'm telling you how it became to mean friend and why kappe means friend, which really means 'a covering' meaning your group around you.

Friend is not etymologically connected to the word cap or cape, see - it evolves through the meaning.

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#1124    Otharus

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 07:34 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

You should note that cap has no e on it - the word kappe is related to cape not cap - even though cape does indeed come from cap.

Kappe is old Dutch for Kap.
Cape is modern English.

Recap of your flawed reasoning:

- cape comes from cap
- kappe is related to cape
- kappe is NOT related to cap

How can kappe only be related to cape and not to cap, if cape is derived from cap?


#1125    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 09:08 AM

View PostOtharus, on 30 September 2012 - 07:34 AM, said:

Kappe is old Dutch for Kap.
Cape is modern English.

Recap of your flawed reasoning:

- cape comes from cap
- kappe is related to cape
- kappe is NOT related to cap

How can kappe only be related to cape and not to cap, if cape is derived from cap?

Because cape is a later word than cap. It's related to cap, my wording was bad.

cape (n.1) Posted Image garment, O.E. capa, from L.L. cappa "cape, hooded cloak" (see cap (n.)). Latin and English cappa/capa derived from cap but does not MEAN cap.

Don't forget Frisian is closer to English unless you want to think Old Dutch is in the OLB.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 September 2012 - 09:30 AM.

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