145 replies to this topic

[Gummug]

docyabut2, on 12 October 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Martha Raddatz was an awful moderator I argee, for she is democrat, she even invited Obama to her wedding,  go figure who side she was on. Like I said a really unfair debate.  All Biden did was make a raving  ##% of himself,  not like Ryan who tried to talk sense.

I wish for once we could get a conservative moderator, just to be fair.

[questionmark]

Gummug, on 12 October 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

I wish for once we could get a conservative moderator, just to be fair.

Just has one problem: Most of them love to hear themselves talk and not the participants in the debate. If you want to hear a Limbaugh monologue you don't have to invite any candidates.

[Gummug]

questionmark, on 12 October 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Just has one problem: Most of them love to hear themselves talk and not the participants in the debate. If you want to hear a Limbaugh monologue you don't have to invite any candidates.

The man does have a point, to quote Mr. Reese.

[Order66]

questionmark, on 12 October 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Just has one problem: Most of them love to hear themselves talk and not the participants in the debate. If you want to hear a Limbaugh monologue you don't have to invite any candidates.

I agree, but at least people tune in to hear Limbaugh, nobody tunes in to the debate to hear the moderator talk. for that matter, I'm glad Biden finds America's problems so amusing, but maybe he can save the snarky witticisms for open mike night at the club and act like a VP. When Biden started laughing, Ryan should have said, "is there something you'd like to share with the rest of us? Please do that on your own time."

Edited by Vein Capital, 12 October 2012 - 08:12 PM.

[RavenHawk]

I finally have some time today to sit down and throw in my two cents worth.  I don't think either won, but it did show off each side’s weaknesses.

The two big things against Biden were the body language and the “Big Lie”.  For Ryan it was the uneasy sugar coating of the truth.

The laughing and the interruptions by Biden gave away the arrogance of this Administration.  This is why you can’t compromise with Socialism.  But I think the people are seeing this arrogance and Obama is losing ground because of that and not because Romney offers an alternative.  And the big lie came when Biden talked about not knowing that Benghazi was a terrorist attack.  We all knew it the day after but this Administration was trying to pin it on a film.  They’re caught in a lie due to ignorance and they will continue to support the lie.

For Romney/Ryan, the truth they are so trying to sugar coat is that the middle and lower classes are in a world of hurt.  And the government did it to us.  They are trying to assure us that government can get us out of this mess but it is going to take sacrifice.  The issue is government dependency.  How do you wean people off of it without hurting people?  The Republicans think they can do it, but the inconvenient truth is that they can’t and we are screwed.  The Socialist party could care less.  They think that they can just rob the rich to provide the next fix for the people.  That is unsustainable.  The GOP needs to to be honest and straight and explain that this is what is going on and what will eventually happen.  But then how do you convince a drug addict to get clean?  You usually can’t until they hit bottom and that is the devastating truth.  This is where we are all heading unless Entitlements are drastically cut.  The Founding Fathers spoke of caring for the orphan and the widow and that was it.  Everyone else is capable of supporting themselves.

Other than this, there are tons of other issues that haven’t been touched yet.  It is clear that if Obama had real answers they wouldn’t be running Big Bird commercials.  And I’m shocked that Biden really doesn't know how the military works at the top level.  He and Obama have a very naïve view of how this world works.  It’s clear now that Obama has just been playing at diplomacy in a real world.

Yes, I agree that it is the responsibility of Afghanistan for their security, but Biden doesn’t understand that now is not the time to just walk away.  He doesn’t understand that this should be a multigenerational mission.  Then and only then after all those years we can pull our troops out.  Now if we want to pull our troops out now, that’s fine but don’t say when we are going to do it.

Yes we have the toughest sanctions on Iran that have ever been seen, but they are pretty much ineffective.  Just look at Cuba or even Iraq.  Castro and Saddam laughed at our sanctions.  What do you think Khamenei is doing?  I don’t think we need another war, but when war is forced upon you, you really have no choice.  The Socialist choices since Carter have cost us dearly in this region.  If we would for once keep a commitment here, then we wouldn’t have to go fight the next war.

I need to mention something about this $5 trillion tax break.  What most people don’t catch is that this covers a 10 year period.  Which amounts to $500 billion a year.  That’s not that great when you compare it to the debt.  And this is a tax break across the board.  The reason that the rich seem to get more is because thy pay more.  And I’m getting fed up with this, oh the rich should pay their fair share.  Guess what, the rich pay more than their fair share.  The top 1% pay 30% of the tax burden.  Is that fair?

You know, a tax cut doesn’t cost the government anything.  If the government has problems paying for things then it is spending too much.

I like that question about where did the recession come from.  The Socialist seem to give two answers.  Biden was saying that the recession came from two wars and a drug program.  Well, didn’t Biden vote for the wars and the Socialist supported the Medicare drug program?

The other answer is that they blame the banks.  I wish they would get their stories straight.  The banks were only the instruments in the recession.  The wars didn’t cause the recession and it wasn’t the banks.  It was the environment or the playing field that was provided for them.  The banks played by the rules but when the environment is skewed, you get skewed interpretations of the rules.  The primary goal of the banks was to make money.  When the environment is such that forces the banks to bet against itself in order to make money, you know nothing good will come of it.  Forcing the banks to make risky loans to people that can’t pay them back places the banks into a no-win situation.  The banks can only resort to achieving their primary goal and that is to make money.  And that is selling trash loans as good.  That environment was created by Dodd and Frank pulling a Harding/Coolidge/Hoover thinking that everyone could own their own homes even if they didn’t have the means to do so.  But the difference being that with HCH, there would also be prosperity.  With today’s Socialist party, its, oh you can’t pay for that, let Papa Obama and Grandpa Joe just give it to you.  The thing is is that these people haven’t learned.  The banks will now have huge regulations imposed and when these bad loans take effect, the banks will go bankrupt and the banks will have to call in all loans and foreclose on *ALL* mortgages including those that are capable of paying.

Finally, this concept of Leveling The Playing Field.  You do realize that it is just Socialist speak to keep everyone equally poor?  The fact is is that not everybody is equal.  People will naturally find their level.  Some have a higher level than others.  Those that have a higher level will command more knowledge, capabilities, money, etc. than others.  This is the natural condition of mankind.  In a Socialist society, the only way to bring those with lower levels up is to take away from those at the top.  In a Capitalist society, it is to find ways to encourage those at the bottom to improve themselves and nothing has to be taken from anybody.

Now, I’ll go read some of these replies.

[Gummug]

RavenHawk, on 12 October 2012 - 08:47 PM, said:

I finally have some time today to sit down and throw in my two cents worth.  I don't think either won, but it did show off each side’s weaknesses.

The two big things against Biden were the body language and the “Big Lie”.  For Ryan it was the uneasy sugar coating of the truth.

The laughing and the interruptions by Biden gave away the arrogance of this Administration.  This is why you can’t compromise with Socialism.  But I think the people are seeing this arrogance and Obama is losing ground because of that and not because Romney offers an alternative.  And the big lie came when Biden talked about not knowing that Benghazi was a terrorist attack.  We all knew it the day after but this Administration was trying to pin it on a film.  They’re caught in a lie due to ignorance and they will continue to support the lie.

For Romney/Ryan, the truth they are so trying to sugar coat is that the middle and lower classes are in a world of hurt.  And the government did it to us.  They are trying to assure us that government can get us out of this mess but it is going to take sacrifice.  The issue is government dependency.  How do you wean people off of it without hurting people?  The Republicans think they can do it, but the inconvenient truth is that they can’t and we are screwed.  The Socialist party could care less.  They think that they can just rob the rich to provide the next fix for the people.  That is unsustainable.  The GOP needs to to be honest and straight and explain that this is what is going on and what will eventually happen.  But then how do you convince a drug addict to get clean?  You usually can’t until they hit bottom and that is the devastating truth.  This is where we are all heading unless Entitlements are drastically cut.  The Founding Fathers spoke of caring for the orphan and the widow and that was it.  Everyone else is capable of supporting themselves.

Other than this, there are tons of other issues that haven’t been touched yet.  It is clear that if Obama had real answers they wouldn’t be running Big Bird commercials.  And I’m shocked that Biden really doesn't know how the military works at the top level.  He and Obama have a very naïve view of how this world works.  It’s clear now that Obama has just been playing at diplomacy in a real world.

Yes, I agree that it is the responsibility of Afghanistan for their security, but Biden doesn’t understand that now is not the time to just walk away.  He doesn’t understand that this should be a multigenerational mission.  Then and only then after all those years we can pull our troops out.  Now if we want to pull our troops out now, that’s fine but don’t say when we are going to do it.

Yes we have the toughest sanctions on Iran that have ever been seen, but they are pretty much ineffective.  Just look at Cuba or even Iraq.  Castro and Saddam laughed at our sanctions.  What do you think Khamenei is doing?  I don’t think we need another war, but when war is forced upon you, you really have no choice.  The Socialist choices since Carter have cost us dearly in this region.  If we would for once keep a commitment here, then we wouldn’t have to go fight the next war.

I need to mention something about this $5 trillion tax break.  What most people don’t catch is that this covers a 10 year period.  Which amounts to $500 billion a year.  That’s not that great when you compare it to the debt.  And this is a tax break across the board.  The reason that the rich seem to get more is because thy pay more.  And I’m getting fed up with this, oh the rich should pay their fair share.  Guess what, the rich pay more than their fair share.  The top 1% pay 30% of the tax burden.  Is that fair?

You know, a tax cut doesn’t cost the government anything.  If the government has problems paying for things then it is spending too much.

I like that question about where did the recession come from.  The Socialist seem to give two answers.  Biden was saying that the recession came from two wars and a drug program.  Well, didn’t Biden vote for the wars and the Socialist supported the Medicare drug program?

The other answer is that they blame the banks.  I wish they would get their stories straight.  The banks were only the instruments in the recession.  The wars didn’t cause the recession and it wasn’t the banks.  It was the environment or the playing field that was provided for them.  The banks played by the rules but when the environment is skewed, you get skewed interpretations of the rules.  The primary goal of the banks was to make money.  When the environment is such that forces the banks to bet against itself in order to make money, you know nothing good will come of it.  Forcing the banks to make risky loans to people that can’t pay them back places the banks into a no-win situation.  The banks can only resort to achieving their primary goal and that is to make money.  And that is selling trash loans as good.  That environment was created by Dodd and Frank pulling a Harding/Coolidge/Hoover thinking that everyone could own their own homes even if they didn’t have the means to do so.  But the difference being that with HCH, there would also be prosperity.  With today’s Socialist party, its, oh you can’t pay for that, let Papa Obama and Grandpa Joe just give it to you.  The thing is is that these people haven’t learned.  The banks will now have huge regulations imposed and when these bad loans take effect, the banks will go bankrupt and the banks will have to call in all loans and foreclose on *ALL* mortgages including those that are capable of paying.

Finally, this concept of Leveling The Playing Field.  You do realize that it is just Socialist speak to keep everyone equally poor?  The fact is is that not everybody is equal.  People will naturally find their level.  Some have a higher level than others.  Those that have a higher level will command more knowledge, capabilities, money, etc. than others.  This is the natural condition of mankind.  In a Socialist society, the only way to bring those with lower levels up is to take away from those at the top.  In a Capitalist society, it is to find ways to encourage those at the bottom to improve themselves and nothing has to be taken from anybody.

Now, I’ll go read some of these replies.

As someone else said somewhere, I wish there were a button for "four likes"! Leveling the playing field...all equal...isn't there a quote from "The Once and Future King", something to the effect that, "yes, we will all be equal...all equally dead". I think there's a quote in it something like that, imo seems to apply...

[docyabut2]

What gets me is the Obama`s adminstration wants to keep denying that we are still in this war on terrorism.Pull troops out everywhere, cut military spending and act like Iran`s not a big threat.I think I would pay a little more taxes to keep our country safe, then worry about grandma`s meds and yes I`m a seventy year old grandma.I think I rather be safe then dead from a nuke terrorist`s attack.

[Socio]

Looks like the RNC got a new AD out of the debate.

"Laughing at the Issues" (Official Version)

[F3SS]

The Silver Thong, on 12 October 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Giving and picking who you give to is not a tax its a tax break and Ryan said he would what cut that tax loop lol.  Tax is ment to help the whole of society not the few. How has taxs being spent on a failed war on drugs Iraqi and afgan benifited the average citizen. None that I can see so why keep it up. Biden says get out of Afgan 2014 Rayn leave it open to when ever. How long must a decade war go one befor one goes damn it didn`t work. The Russians tried it there and now they are going great America is going broke over there military budget.

At least taxs have some oversite. Repulicans need for a militaty comples dirvine society foesure do not enclude a public oversite.  How many jobs has Mitt farmed out to other nations that will make up his imaginary 7 million job creation plan. Is he looking to a higher power. I liked Biden response to abortion over Ryans by far.  One seems to understand a secular nation and one does not.

do a search and see how much charity acrtually reaches the people that need it....

I didn't say charity is a tax. And this is how I understand these evil tax breaks...
---Give $10M to a charity. Now, the % you owe on that tax is less. I don't know what it is, lets say 5%. So since you donated that $10M you only owe $500k to the IRS for that money. So now you are down $10.5M.
---Keep all $10M to yourself. Now the % you owe on that tax is higher. I don't now what it is, lets say 30%. So since you kept $10M you now owe the IRS $3M. So now you're only down $3M and you have $7M left for yourself.  
Same with business write offs. People scream when they hear some business had a million in write offs but chances are they spent a ton of money on business related stuff which they already paid some taxes on, usually sales tax. They till pay a full tax rate on the money they spent MINUS the sales tax or whatever was already paid from that million. Write off doesn't equal no tax scott free. Yes I'm sure there are some loophole absurdities in the tax code that are arguably wrong but most of the business world shouldn't be demonized as most of the business world isn't in a position to abuse such loopholes.
I'm sure some charities out there aren't completely honest but you shouldn't attach negative connotation to those that give. Listen to yourself. You are demonizing the charitable and charities, damning where our taxes have gone(which obviously I agree) while at the same time defending politicians "oversight" on where they go. You're being contradictory and I don't believe that you believe yourself right here. You're bending over backwards just to make Romney look bad for donating to charity of all things. It certainly doesn't make him a cheapskate since he'd have more money if he just paid the taxes and didn't donate. Romney like French fries too. Now this is where you tell me why that's wrong.

Legaia, on 12 October 2012 - 12:53 PM, said:

I should've just watched the Steeler game last night...

Glad I'm not the only one who chose the debate over the game. It wasn't a comfortable decision but I learned what I find more important last night. I was avoiding people yesterday just so I didn't have to endure being asked what I was doing for the game, lol. You can lose some serious respect from people in the burgh for not being loyal to the Steelers even if the country is in high stakes.

[RavenHawk]

I wonder how Biden would have felt if Ryan acted the same way Biden did when he talked about his personal family tragedy?

[CommunitarianKevin]

RavenHawk, on 12 October 2012 - 10:58 PM, said:

I wonder how Biden would have felt if Ryan acted the same way Biden did when he talked about his personal family tragedy?

What was Ryan's family tragedy? (Seriously, I must have missed it.)

[docyabut2]

Is`t that whats it all about the rich giving to charity instead of demanding they pay more taxes, as Obama want to do, rob the rich to pay for the poor but the poor gets more lazier, more goverment hands out. All Obama`s plan is going to to do cut more jobs that the rich supply.

[CommunitarianKevin]

docyabut2, on 12 October 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Is`t that whats it all about the rich giving to charity instead of demanding they pay more taxes, as Obama want to do, rob the rich to pay for the poor but the poor gets more lazier, more goverment hands out. All Obama`s plan is going to to do cut more jobs that the rich supply.

[RavenHawk]

I had heard of an interesting format for a Presidential debate.  You sequester each candidate into separate and isolated rooms and ask them the same select and specific questions and then let them answer.  Then bring them together and replay those clips and have the debate over the candidate’s responses and counters.  Then you can cut out such tactics like what Biden was doing.  Just because your side feels that you can’t hold your own, don’t be disruptive.

A variation that I would also like to see is going back to isolating each candidate into a simulation control room and throw various scenarios at them.  They can range from one being very neutral to just showcase their thinking processes, then one with moderated random events, then one that is a Kobayashi Maru like.

[RavenHawk]

HuttonEtAl, on 12 October 2012 - 11:00 PM, said:

What was Ryan's family tragedy? (Seriously, I must have missed it.)

Perhaps I should have broken that up into two sentences?? But I would have thought that even context would have been enough for anyone that watched it.  When Biden was talking about his family tragedy, how do you think Biden would have felt if Ryan acted in the same manner that Biden was acting the entire debate?  You know, smiling and laughing.  Being disrespectful.