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The Golden Age of Mankind


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#31    redhen

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 03:17 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 22 June 2013 - 01:15 AM, said:

No, not the west, the UN should act as the Organisation they were created to be.

>>snip
The west shouldn't be involved in any solitary, intertwining and deceitful plot on their own under the banner of the UN.  This vetoing BS option by elite Govts should also be given the flick.

Probably sounds utopia and unrealistic, at least in our lifetime, but you wanted a proposal so there it is.

I agree. This was/is what the League of Nations and U.N. are for. But these will never work with such divided interests. How 'bout a one world government?

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#32    sutemi

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 09:00 AM

A nice discussion, the well fed judging the needs of the sick and starving, like the children in Syria, arguing about the likes of North Korea and various acts of corruption in foreign countries and still the children die in there thousands. There are good Charities and bad Charities, it is not hard to find good non-governmental ones. They run their own clinics, shelters and food stations. They try very hard to make sure our money is well spent.

Here’s a question, how long did your last post take to write?  Divide that time by 5 seconds and the result will be the amount of CHILDREN who died through no fault of their own and in excruciating pain caused by such things as DIARRHOEA!  Then think again about your moralistic stance as you throw away probably every day, enough to feed a child. This world needs to learn compassion, all of us, before any real change can happen. Stuff the politics, the corrupt thieving officials and mistakes that can happen and let’s feed the children and get medicine to them. For £10 a month you can feed 30 children and supply the same amount of mosquito nets that is with a very good charity ‘Save the Children Fund’. They check as much as possible to make sure the aid gets where it is supposed to, as shown  in this film.

The International day of Peace 21 September 2013 why not join in? We can talk or we can act.


#33    redhen

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:46 AM

View Postsutemi, on 22 June 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

Here’s a question, how long did your last post take to write?  Divide that time by 5 seconds and the result will be the amount of CHILDREN who died through no fault of their own and in excruciating pain caused by such things as DIARRHOEA!  

Those are the immediate causes, but the ultimate causes need to be addressed in order to finally solve these perennial problems. I submit the ultimate cause is corrupt, dysfunctional "governments", that still seem to find the money to lavish on their kin and friends and military/security budgets in order to oppress their people.

Quote

Then think again about your moralistic stance as you throw away probably every day, enough to feed a child. This world needs to learn compassion, all of us, before any real change can happen.

Compassion without wisdom is dangerous. If a bear falls out of a tree, would you stand underneath and try to catch it? By propping up these dictatorial rulers, you're only making the problem worse.

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Stuff the politics, the corrupt thieving officials and mistakes that can happen

Impossible! It's always political. But why look so far away from home to help? If you're a North American, you should be helping the poor Native children living in poverty, their parents too drunk and incapable of looking after them, and resorting to suicide.

These are Canadian stats, but I'm sure things are no better in the U.S.A.


Like Africa, It's not a problem of aid money, it's a problem of corrupt Native politicians, with no accountability to the federal government. People that pay to prop up these oligarchies, aka taxpayers, are finally waking up though.


#34    Jessica Christ

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 11:57 AM

View Postredhen, on 22 June 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

If you're a North American, you should be helping the poor Native children living in poverty...

Pretty much guessed that this was about helping your "own" only.

What about letting people decide who they want to help instead of trying to discourage them from helping others?

Edited by The world needs you, 22 June 2013 - 11:58 AM.


#35    redhen

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:45 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 22 June 2013 - 11:57 AM, said:

Pretty much guessed that this was about helping your "own" only.

No, not your "own" (I assume you mean race), I mean why not help children in your backyard rather than half a world away?

Speaking of children, another comparative trend between Africans and Native Americans is their population growth. If you live in abject poverty (and how could you not be aware), why would you insist on having half a dozen or more children to house and feed?

Where does personal responsibility factor in? Or are these societies held to a different standard?


#36    Jessica Christ

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 12:49 PM

View Postredhen, on 22 June 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

No, not your "own" (I assume you mean race), I mean why not help children in your backyard rather than half a world away?

Speaking of children, another comparative trend between Africans and Native Americans is their population growth. If you live in abject poverty (and how could you not be aware), why would you insist on having half a dozen or more children to house and feed?

Where does personal responsibility factor in? Or are these societies held to a different standard?

Why do some always look for the worse in others only?

While some are trying to help others, others are trying to bring them down. Naturally a balance will be maintained regardless of how we try to influence it.

Why do some always look for the best in others only?

Let those who want to help others decide how they will help. Let those who need help decide what help they will receive or reject.

It is up to each person to decide in the end. Presumably you have decided for yourself. Are you to decide the population growth among other groups too?

Edited by The world needs you, 22 June 2013 - 12:59 PM.


#37    Jor-el

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:02 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 22 June 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Why do some always look for the worse in others only?

It's not about looking for the worst, it is about recognizing that we are our own worst enemies. At this time we have a lot of aid going out to any number of different countries. Countries that for one reason or another are impoverished but cannot seem to get out of that situation, no matter what is done to help them.

The fact is that without aid they would even be worse off than they are now.

I find it interesting though that while the more advanced nations in the Americas and in Europe, with one or two exceptions in Africa and the Asian continent have succeeded in stabilizing their population growth and are concentrating on sustainable growth, we have the majority of the world sliding slowly in to chaos and disaster, due to overpopulation, lack of natural resources, food and water and especially arable land.

The situation is getting worse by the year as the resources that are available need to be shared by ever increasing populations, with borders blocking movement of needy populations from moving to areas that can sustain them.

Things are only going to get worse as the situations become ever more unstable, yet here we are on the cusp of a world believing in the imminent arrival of a Human Golden Age.

Edited by Jor-el, 22 June 2013 - 01:04 PM.

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#38    redhen

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:04 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 22 June 2013 - 12:49 PM, said:

Why do some always look for the worse in others only?

I don't have to go out of my way to look, it's ever present, all around my area; nepotism, corruption, greed and ignorance.

Quote

While some are trying to help others, others are trying to bring them down.

Some people, like children, need discipline enforced upon them, otherwise they will hurt themselves.

Quote

Naturally a balance will be maintained regardless of how we try to influence it.

We have removed all the Malthusian traps.

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Are you to decide the population growth among other groups too?

Obviously not.


#39    Jor-el

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:10 PM

View Postredhen, on 22 June 2013 - 01:04 PM, said:


We have removed all the Malthusian traps.

this to me is the most important point yet made.

Thomas Malthus even to day is a controversial figure, but his views do seem to be spot on regarding the sustainability of our world.

Malthus became widely known for his theories about change in population. His An Essay on the Principle of Population observed that sooner or later population will be checked by famine and disease. He wrote in opposition to the popular view in 18th-century Europe that saw society as improving and in principle as perfectible. He thought that the dangers of population growth precluded progress towards a utopian society: "The power of population is indefinitely greater than the power in the earth to produce subsistence for man". As a cleric, Malthus saw this situation as divinely imposed to teach virtuous behavior.

http://en.wikipedia...._Robert_Malthus

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#40    WhyDontYouBeliEveMe

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:12 PM

We need KAL EL superman


#41    Jessica Christ

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:16 PM

View PostJor-el, on 22 June 2013 - 01:02 PM, said:

It's not about looking for the worst, it is about recognizing that we are our own worst enemies. At this time we have a lot of aid going out to any number of different countries. Countries that for one reason or another are impoverished but cannot seem to get out of that situation, no matter what is done to help them.

The fact is that without aid they would even be worse off than they are now.

I find it interesting though that while the more advanced nations in the Americas and in Europe, with one or two exceptions in Africa and the Asian continent have succeeded in stabilizing their population growth and are concentrating on sustainable growth, we have the majority of the world sliding slowly in to chaos and disaster, due to overpopulation, lack of natural resources, food and water and especially arable land.

The situation is getting worse by the year as the resources that are available need to be shared by ever increasing populations, with borders blocking movement of needy populations from moving to areas that can sustain them.

Things are only going to get worse as the situations become ever more unstable, yet here we are on the cusp of a world believing in the imminent arrival of a Human Golden Age.

Do not know anyone's situation, nor is it necessary to know, but plenty who feel others should not have children just might not have any of their own.

Why would you want to bring children in a world that is going to end horribly anyways?

But are we mind readers to claim those on the other side of the world, or even here, are just mindlessly having babies without caring?

Do we truly know what they are thinking? Do we truly know them as people to claim anything one way or the other?

It seems some have too much education for their own good (they know every possible problem and disaster) while others have too little education (they don't know when to stop having babies).

Still what solutions do they offer besides: stop helping others?

Maybe if we corrected the education balance we could correct the economic imbalance. The education balance though is not as all as I proposed, where some know too much, and others know too little, it is that we all know too little. Too little to say what is best for ourselves much less for others.

If you want to change the world then work on changing yourself.

Overall the world is getting better in my view. We will never solve every problem but less people die in our era than in the tribal era. Many will still die be it in peace at old age in bed or through famine which is not a lack of food but because of faulty distribution systems. In time we will recognize more problems and fix more of them too. Maybe by then our own attitudes will catch up to the wonderful progress.

Truly those who do not want to help others hurt themselves more than others. Holding onto hot coals in your hand planning who to cast them at only harms yourself. Jumping into the fire of misery that you see is the world only means you burn with others who choose to jump in with you. Whether it is hate or just pessimism the disadvantage is to yourself primarily, then to those immediately around you, those across the world, with nothing, might be happier for the simple things that we ourselves cannot find with all our luxury.


#42    Frank Merton

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:20 PM

The basic Malthusian concept is that a population of animals cannot long exceed the sustaining capacity of its environment.

There is generally a single limiting factor.  It might be light (for plants) or something like salt or space or water or, of course, food.  When this is exceeded, the overall health of the population declines, and opportunities for disease and predation increase.

Normally populations are kept below this level by predation and other natural factors, but sometimes for one reason or another populations get into a cycle of population boom and bust.

Efforts have been made to apply these principles to human populations, especially the variations seen in Europe during the Middle Ages, along with its outbreaks of disease.  The idea has a surface appeal but doesn't withstand close scrutiny, and other reasons for what happened seem to make a better fit.

At the moment technology seems to step in far ahead of any Malthusian crisis, so that populations have grown and are now stable, and even where people are poor living conditions are steadily improving.  Of course a widespread famine or pandemic is always possible, but probably not for Malthusian reasons.


#43    redhen

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:28 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 22 June 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Why would you want to bring children in a world that is going to end horribly anyways?

But are we mind readers to claim those on the other side of the world, or even here, are just mindlessly having babies without caring?

No, you don't need to be a psychic, you just have to do a bit of research. It has been shown over and over that where women have the freedom to choose, they will accept and make use of contraceptives. Europe is a prime example.

"Beginning in 1973 in Egypt, and then in dozens of countries, we were able to demonstrate, with the help of local research associates, that, when oral contraceptives were offered at every abode, the majority of householders accepted them and a large proportion of non-pregnant women soon began using them.(10) Furthermore, later research showed that by making all the most effective means of fertility control readily available to all population groups, use rates comparable to those in much more developed societies were soon achieved. "
Ravenholt, R.T. (1994). Taking contraceptives to the world's poor.
Free Inquiry, Spring 1994 v14 n2 p6(5)

It's a macho culture in these countries that oppresses women and controls their reproductive cycles. In India for example only 929 girls were born per 1,000 boys in 1994. In China we see 106 boys per 100 girls within the governments "one-child policy" plan, and 118 boys per 100 girls outside the plan.
Jones,A (2000) Case Study:Female Infanticide
Gendercide Watch http://www.gendercide.org


According to census data for Canadian Inuit populations from 1900 to 1932, the ratio was heavily skewed, with 173 boys per 100 girls. Early explorers reported female infanticide as customary, with one expedition in 1931 reporting a female infanticide rate of 66 percent
Smith, E., Smith,S. (1994) Inuit Sex-Ratio Variation
Current Anthropology 35: 595-624

In light of these ingrained cultural barriers it may sound underwhelming to read from the latest UNFPA 2008 report:

"Culturally sensitive programming is key to building this common ground. It provides a practical and strategic response to the observation that cultural beliefs and perceptions are at the root of gender inequalities in many societies." (UNFPA, 2008).


A common thread that runs through all these problems seems to be lack of modern education. One excerpt from the UNFPA report can illustrate some extreme cases concerning human reproduction;

In parts of Egypt and India, people believe that men contribute a fully formed foetus; the quality of the woman’s womb and menstrual blood determines how the foetus develops.Some Asian and African cultures define infertility as women’s inability to produce sons. Some societies consider infertile women to have been cursed. (UNFPA 2008).


Hell, I should post my whole essay.


#44    Jor-el

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 22 June 2013 - 01:20 PM, said:

The basic Malthusian concept is that a population of animals cannot long exceed the sustaining capacity of its environment.

There is generally a single limiting factor.  It might be light (for plants) or something like salt or space or water or, of course, food.  When this is exceeded, the overall health of the population declines, and opportunities for disease and predation increase.

Normally populations are kept below this level by predation and other natural factors, but sometimes for one reason or another populations get into a cycle of population boom and bust.

Efforts have been made to apply these principles to human populations, especially the variations seen in Europe during the Middle Ages, along with its outbreaks of disease.  The idea has a surface appeal but doesn't withstand close scrutiny, and other reasons for what happened seem to make a better fit.

At the moment technology seems to step in far ahead of any Malthusian crisis, so that populations have grown and are now stable, and even where people are poor living conditions are steadily improving.  Of course a widespread famine or pandemic is always possible, but probably not for Malthusian reasons.

There are quite a number of limiting factors not just one. Disease is one. Disease was a natural equalizer of populations that allowed them to maintain a stable ratio between growth and decrease. natural resources, as you mentioned is another. No one has said that the Malthusian concept is based on only one limiting factor. many have argued against the concept itself due to another human tendency, denial.
  • simple denial: deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether
  • minimization: admit the fact but deny its seriousness (a combination of denial and rationalization)
  • projection: admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility by blaming somebody or something else.


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-C. S. Lewis


#45    Jor-el

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 01:34 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 22 June 2013 - 01:16 PM, said:

Do not know anyone's situation, nor is it necessary to know, but plenty who feel others should not have children just might not have any of their own.

Why would you want to bring children in a world that is going to end horribly anyways?

But are we mind readers to claim those on the other side of the world, or even here, are just mindlessly having babies without caring?

Do we truly know what they are thinking? Do we truly know them as people to claim anything one way or the other?

It seems some have too much education for their own good (they know every possible problem and disaster) while others have too little education (they don't know when to stop having babies).

Still what solutions do they offer besides: stop helping others?

Maybe if we corrected the education balance we could correct the economic imbalance. The education balance though is not as all as I proposed, where some know too much, and others know too little, it is that we all know too little. Too little to say what is best for ourselves much less for others.

If you want to change the world then work on changing yourself.

Overall the world is getting better in my view. We will never solve every problem but less people die in our era than in the tribal era. Many will still die be it in peace at old age in bed or through famine which is not a lack of food but because of faulty distribution systems. In time we will recognize more problems and fix more of them too. Maybe by then our own attitudes will catch up to the wonderful progress.

Truly those who do not want to help others hurt themselves more than others. Holding onto hot coals in your hand planning who to cast them at only harms yourself. Jumping into the fire of misery that you see is the world only means you burn with others who choose to jump in with you. Whether it is hate or just pessimism the disadvantage is to yourself primarily, then to those immediately around you, those across the world, with nothing, might be happier for the simple things that we ourselves cannot find with all our luxury.

I strongly suspect that we are out of time for adopting the long view

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-C. S. Lewis





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