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Best evidence for ET visitation - 3rd edition


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#46    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:03 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 11 March 2011 - 07:12 PM, said:

I see two options here:
1) folks in US government were extremely stupid back then: they were, and are, covering up ET visitation at any costs, yet they allow R.Emenegger to make film about their most covered secrets; I don't think thats the case.
2) you are wearing I want to believeTM glasses - thats more likely.

No, you're wrong, that's not more likely, but I can think of nothing more to say about that documentary than what I have already written on that thread.  I already explained why they chose to disclose that infomation at that particular time.

Edited by TheMcGuffin, 11 March 2011 - 09:06 PM.

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#47    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:04 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 11 March 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

Yeah, it's pretty difficult to support the position that UFO's don't exist. I think there is a bit of confusion about the blurred definition of UFO. In the classic and literal sense it means exactly what the anagram stands for, unidentified flying object. However over the years and through manipulations of the definition, often to a purposely misleading end, the meaning has somehow transformed to be synonymous with alien craft. Which is complete garbage and one of the issues that sorely needs to be addressed within UFOlogy in my opinion. Most people on this board use the original definition however you will see the new age alternate definition spring up from time to time, it happens I suppose. :hmm: ^_^
I suppose that someone who thinks that all UFOs can be accounted for by terrestrial explanations could say that they don't believe in UFOs, since as far as they're concerned, everything could be identified, perhaps; just because the person who sees them might not know what it is, it doesn't mean that no one would.  :geek:

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#48    Sweetpumper

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:04 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 11 March 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

Yeah, it's pretty difficult to support the position that UFO's don't exist. I think there is a bit of confusion about the blurred definition of UFO. In the classic and literal sense it means exactly what the anagram stands for, unidentified flying object. However over the years and through manipulations of the definition, often to a purposely misleading end, the meaning has somehow transformed to be synonymous with alien craft. Which is complete garbage and one of the issues that sorely needs to be addressed within UFOlogy in my opinion. Most people on this board use the original definition however you will see the new age alternate definition spring up from time to time, it happens I suppose. :hmm: ^_^

It has been dealt with by people who really have to look into these matters, like some in the military that are assigned to research them and realize from the start that the term "UFO" presents a problem. Leslie Kean's new book addresses this.

The trouble in here is that anyone can pop in and make a comment, and do. I can't believe some of the things I have to read in here, from both camps, that makes me shake my head because the only thing they rely on are links to articles, reports and stories (or so it seems sometimes) from every corner of the internet instead of picking up a well researched book that's more than a few pages long and answers so many questions like this.

If I have to read another post that says "Y'know, UFO means it's unidentified, right?", I'm running straight out into freeway traffic.

Edited by Sweetpumper, 11 March 2011 - 09:08 PM.

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#49    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:04 PM

View PostBlacksabbath, on 11 March 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

Evidence that is good enough to prove the existence of aliens everyone thinks are visiting earth.


What, specifically?  Think of this as your big opportunity to write more than one line here.....

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#50    S2F

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:19 PM

View Postnessuna, on 11 March 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

Carrying it one step further...
Unless I've overlooked something somewhere, we don't really have any evidence of alien life period. Plenty of opinions that there might be life elsewhere, but nothing concrete to support the idea that there is.

I'm sure that there are those like LS, psyche or Hazz that have appropriate links to new info on the search for alien life in the scientific arena however I think you are right, there is nothing yet that has been offered up as proof of alien life anywhere from a legitimate source.

There are plenty of guesses and theories and speculation to be perused though about the probability of alien life, from the drake equation all the way to organic residue (the origins of which are still being studied as far as I know) from a meteorite. People also like to throw in research into exotic propulsion technologies as well as the sheer size and age of the universe along with countless numbers of possible life sustaining planets circling the ether. Personally, when looked at as a big picture this certainly suggests that life elsewhere is likely. Even though the chances of life may be high according to what we currently perceive, in the end it is still only a chance and a chance by definition can go either way. Until there is something more definitive regarding alien life I, for one, am not going to assume that it is a done deal.

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You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#51    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:21 PM

Which is to say, that unless there is some kind of commonly agreed upon framework here about what kind of evidence is valid and makes for a good case, then this type of discussion goes nowhere.

We could sit here all day coming up with UFO cases that have good witnsses, good pictures, radar-visual sightings, physical evidence, EM effects, sightings of aliens, sightings by astronomers, etc, etc, but this never has much effect on those who tend to dismiss all of it in one line or less.  I don't think that is part of any real discussion on aliens and UFOs.

I don't see what good it does unless there is such a general idea of what eveidence will be acceptable.

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#52    A Shadow

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:21 PM

View PostPaxus, on 11 March 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:


SUMMARY

Summary in point form, of why I lean toward ETH:

1. Size and age of universe.
    (Because the universe is so large, ET is inevitable. Likewise, becuase the universe is so old, I believe it's quite likely that advanced civilisations exist too. If this is true, I expect they would have such advanced technology that finding other life in the universe would be relatively easy for them (and so I expect, them finding Earth could be practically inevitable)).

2. Almost all ancient cultures having a historic record or legend(s) of being coming from 'above'/'the sky'/'space'/'the heavens' (if ET were not visiting Earth, one would expect a lot less of Earth's cultures to have such legends/beliefs - I would guess maybe less than 50%?...

3. Out of all the thousands of sightings, only ONE, needs to be true in order for the ETH to be correct. When considering all the points (above and below), it's probable that at least one of them is true.

4. Frequency of sightings/encounters.

5. Quality of witness testimony and sightings/encounters.
5.a. High witness credibilty when: Pilot, Astronaut,  Scientist, military or other professional, did not believe ETH prior to sighting/encounter, have no motive to lie, telling about sighting is detrimental  to witness.
5.b. Multiple witnesses see/experience same ET event.
5.c. Photo + Video evidence (Esp. when in combination with any of above or below points)
5.d. Pilot intercept. (Esp. when in combination with any of above or below points)
5.e. Radar contact (Esp. when multiple radars show same object + when in combination with any of above or below points)
5.f. Some abduction encounters seem credible.
5.g. Testimony of people I personally trust absolutely.
5.h. Some Sightings/encounters include seeing/interaction with (usually small) humanoid occupants of the craft. This is one of the most compelling arguments for ETH as this can hardly be anything other than ETH (Expect perhaps time travellers or interdimensional travellers).

6. The posibility that alien implants exist.

Note: Sometimes we have multiples of the above points occuring simultaneously - obviously this makes the case for ETH much stronger than any single point.


Nice summary you have there. I have to lean with you there. Most of these points were jam in my head somwhere, its nice to see them lay out like this.


#53    Hazzard

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:24 PM

View Postnessuna, on 11 March 2011 - 08:37 PM, said:

Carrying it one step further...
Unless I've overlooked something somewhere, we don't really have any evidence of alien life period. Plenty of opinions that there might be life elsewhere, but nothing concrete to support the idea that there is.


No.


The most interesting ones, if you ask me, is the WOW signal and the ALH 84001 meteorite. I also heard something about that Japanese comet return sample...

Anyone?



Nothing conclusive though.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#54    Particle Noun

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:26 PM

View PostHazzard, on 11 March 2011 - 02:45 PM, said:

That has always been the problem.

As long as all these liers, hoaxers, charlatans and credulous believers are spewing their nonsense, UFOlogy might have to live with the problem of not being taken seriously by the scientific community.


I think this is a specious and weak position for scientists to take.  Firstly I want to clarify that it is highly important that this phenomena be taken on it's own terms which means that, in fact, these can only be considered, at this point, unidentified objects, not alien ships.  I agree that there is simply not enough evidence to ascribe a cause to these phenomena.  However, to say that because they're just 'unidentified' means that we should just shrug is inane, or to dismiss it out of hand because of the rantings of lunatics or gullible individuals is equally inane.  While not flawless, I think Leslie Kean's book is fantastic in this regard.  By and large I feel like she makes a good case for the need for rigorous investigation of these phenomena so that possibly some understanding of what is happening my be obtained, instead of either dismissal or wild and unfounded speculation.

She also makes a good case for taking the focus away from government cover-up and conspiracy.  I think that is a dead end, even if it were true (and I'm far from convinced that is is).  There are enough cases that are at least extremely interesting that, as a phenomena capable of study we should be pursuing active investigation.

But to either relegate it to "There is no evidence for Aliens and you have to prove that to be true or else we won't even consider it" or "The fact is it's a Unidentified Flying Object, we don't know what it is, and that's that" is sophomoric.


#55    Hazzard

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:29 PM

View PostTheMcGuffin, on 11 March 2011 - 09:21 PM, said:

Which is to say, that unless there is some kind of commonly agreed upon framework here about what kind of evidence is valid and makes for a good case, then this type of discussion goes nowhere.

We could sit here all day coming up with UFO cases that have good witnsses, good pictures, radar-visual sightings, physical evidence, EM effects, sightings of aliens, sightings by astronomers, etc, etc, but this never has much effect on those who tend to dismiss all of it in one line or less.  I don't think that is part of any real discussion on aliens and UFOs.

I don't see what good it does unless there is such a general idea of what eveidence will be acceptable.


I think someone has to open a cold one (hey, its Friday) and just enjoy the fact that we can all agree to disagree on some things.

The way I see it, Im learning something new every day here at UM.  :)

Sadly, not about ET visitation, but plenty of other interesting stuff.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#56    Hazzard

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:41 PM

View PostParticle Noun, on 11 March 2011 - 09:26 PM, said:

I think this is a specious and weak position for scientists to take.  Firstly I want to clarify that it is highly important that this phenomena be taken on it's own terms which means that, in fact, these can only be considered, at this point, unidentified objects, not alien ships.  I agree that there is simply not enough evidence to ascribe a cause to these phenomena.  However, to say that because they're just 'unidentified' means that we should just shrug is inane, or to dismiss it out of hand because of the rantings of lunatics or gullible individuals is equally inane.  While not flawless, I think Leslie Kean's book is fantastic in this regard.  By and large I feel like she makes a good case for the need for rigorous investigation of these phenomena so that possibly some understanding of what is happening my be obtained, instead of either dismissal or wild and unfounded speculation.

She also makes a good case for taking the focus away from government cover-up and conspiracy.  I think that is a dead end, even if it were true (and I'm far from convinced that is is).  There are enough cases that are at least extremely interesting that, as a phenomena capable of study we should be pursuing active investigation.

But to either relegate it to "There is no evidence for Aliens and you have to prove that to be true or else we won't even consider it" or "The fact is it's a Unidentified Flying Object, we don't know what it is, and that's that" is sophomoric.


I could not agree more.

Infact, if it was up to me, I would take the money spent on wars and put it on space exploration and other interesting stuff.

Maybe even some of the paranormal could be explained by throwing money at it?


If you havent already, check out From The Titanic To The Moon and Aliens of the Deep, a 2005 documentary film, directed in part by James Cameron.

Edited by Hazzard, 11 March 2011 - 09:50 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke

#57    S2F

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:44 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 11 March 2011 - 09:04 PM, said:

It has been dealt with by people who really have to look into these matters, like some in the military that are assigned to research them and realize from the start that the term "UFO" presents a problem. Leslie Kean's new book addresses this.

The trouble in here is that anyone can pop in and make a comment, and do. I can't believe some of the things I have to read in here, from both camps, that makes me shake my head because the only thing they rely on are links to articles, reports and stories (or so it seems sometimes) from every corner of the internet instead of picking up a well researched book that's more than a few pages long and answers so many questions like this.

If I have to read another post that says "Y'know, UFO means it's unidentified, right?", I'm running straight out into freeway traffic.

Hey Sweetpumper, it's good to see you around. :tu:

I had a decent post typed up in reply but due to the fact that I'm not at home and using an apparently demon-possessed laptop, my reply was summarily destroyed/deleted down to the first sentence. anyway, the gist of my reply was something along the lines of internet research not being so alien (if you'll pardon the pun) a concept when talking about a public forum.

Also, don't be too hasty to run into freeway traffic, unless you think there might be answers in the afterlife. :P

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#58    S2F

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:47 PM

View PostHazzard, on 11 March 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

Maybe even some of the paranormal could be explained by throwing money at it?

Well, to be honest there have already been many people who have thrown money at the paranormal and it has only made matters worse. (speaking specifically of the credulous crowd and the leeches that feed off of them.) <_<

"You want to discuss plausibility then you have to accept reality." -Mattshark

"Don't argue with an idiot. They'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience." -Obviousman

You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#59    TheMcGuffin

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:57 PM

View PostHazzard, on 11 March 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

I think someone has to open a cold one (hey, its Friday) and just enjoy the fact that we can all agree to disagree on some things.

The way I see it, Im learning something new every day here at UM.  :)

Sadly, not about ET visitation, but plenty of other interesting stuff.



That's okay, I'll just opt out of this one, like I did your other "More Best Evidence" thread that went on for a long, long time.

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#60    Hazzard

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Posted 11 March 2011 - 09:58 PM

For entertainment purposes (rather than any deeper conspiracy theories), we’ve trawled YouTube for UFO clips, and have pulled together a list of ten of the very best hoaxes, “unexplained” footage, fakes, and “mysterious” home movies.

So, put on your tin foil hat and press play now. As always, be sure to let us know your favorites in the comments below.



http://www.abovetops...hread632006/pg1


I really love that second one.  ^_^

Edited by Hazzard, 11 March 2011 - 10:07 PM.

I still await the compelling Exhibit A.

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*The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke