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Flawed F-35 Fighter Too Big to Kill


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#46    and then

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:59 AM

The demos I've seen of the F-35 make it look like a cross between a second (or later) generation Harrier and an F-22.  The thing can fly and fight sideways for heaven's sake..... at what point do machines simply become too sophisticated for real world combat?  And the cost is ridiculous.  Can you imagine flying it and feeling that you need to punch out?  I bet the first pilots will be the most experienced we have to offer just so there is less chance of losing a man OR an aircraft.

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#47    Rafterman

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 02:20 PM

View Postshrooma, on 23 February 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

.
imagine how many hospitals, schools, and homes you could build with $400bn....?

Well keep in mind that military spending is no different than space exploration.  When you hear that it costs $8 billion to send a rover to Mars, it's not like $8 billion is strapped to a rocket and shot off into space.  That money spent on these programs benefit all levels of the economy thus enabling those schools and hospitals to be built.

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#48    Gromdor

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:40 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 23 February 2013 - 09:39 AM, said:


Shoot down a manned fighter with a Drone? That's really putting faith in technology. It's a quite different matter sending missiles into Terrorist Training Camps or killing Al Qaeada's Second in Command on a regular basis than trying to intercept something that may be flying very low and very fast, and can manouever to avoid you.

Having a cheap drone blow one up in a hanger would be devastating.  War is about attrition after all.  If a weapon is too expensive to build, let alone use or lose, then you already have serious problems.  Fifty one planes at 400 billion is 7,843,137,254$ per plane that we paid if we shut the program down right now and those planes currently don't even fly.


#49    Gromdor

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 03:42 PM

View PostRafterman, on 23 February 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:

Well keep in mind that military spending is no different than space exploration.  When you hear that it costs $8 billion to send a rover to Mars, it's not like $8 billion is strapped to a rocket and shot off into space.  That money spent on these programs benefit all levels of the economy thus enabling those schools and hospitals to be built.

That's also what Democrats say about welfare programs!


#50    shrooma

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Posted 23 February 2013 - 09:08 PM

View PostRafterman, on 23 February 2013 - 02:20 PM, said:


When you hear that it costs $8 billion to send a rover to Mars, it's not like $8 billion is strapped to a rocket and shot off into space.  That money spent on these programs benefit all levels of the economy thus enabling those schools and hospitals to be built.
.
$8bn to send a probe to mars Vs $400bn to build a plane that doesn't fly, doesn't really sound like much of a benefit to the economy if you ask me.

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#51    MichaelW

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:26 AM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 23 February 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

and is ridiculously heavy and enormous. Like modern military Aircraft, can you imagine how much it would add to the national Debt if one was to be lost in action?

Each unit cost $207 million. To put that into perspective, the Australian Air Force is spending $1.5 billion on upgrades to their Super Hornets.

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#52    Rafterman

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:28 AM

View Postshrooma, on 23 February 2013 - 09:08 PM, said:

.
$8bn to send a probe to mars Vs $400bn to build a plane that doesn't fly, doesn't really sound like much of a benefit to the economy if you ask me.

Unless you happen to be one of the tens of thousands of folks drawing a paycheck because of the program.

View PostGromdor, on 23 February 2013 - 03:42 PM, said:

That's also what Democrats say about welfare programs!

Yes, but the Democrats are wrong.

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#53    shrooma

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 02:16 AM

View PostRafterman, on 24 February 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:



Unless you happen to be one of the tens of thousands of folks drawing a paycheck because of the program
.
'tens of thousands'??
I think you overestimate the number of people who work on the development of a new aircraft man!

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#54    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:06 AM

View PostMichaelW, on 24 February 2013 - 12:26 AM, said:

Each unit cost $207 million. To put that into perspective, the Australian Air Force is spending $1.5 billion on upgrades to their Super Hornets.
yes, on 71 aircraft (assuming we're talking about the original ones rather than the Super Hornets, which were only new in 2010); that's rather more cost-effective than 207 Million each.

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#55    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 08:09 AM

View Postshrooma, on 24 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

.
'tens of thousands'??
I think you overestimate the number of people who work on the development of a new aircraft man!
i don't know, according to Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopaeida, Lockheed Martin has 123,000 Employees, although obviously they wouldn't all be employed on the White Elephant- i mean, F-35 project. And then there's all the subcontractors, engines, electronics & so on.

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#56    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 10:31 AM

Pssst, don't tell anybody, but soon some of these for sale, special price, just for you :)



#57    shrooma

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:06 PM

View PostLord Vetinari, on 24 February 2013 - 08:09 AM, said:

Lockheed Martin has 123,000 Employees, although obviously they wouldn't all be employed on the White Elephant- i mean, F-35 project.
.
only a very small proportion of them would be working on the lightning, with it only being one of the thirty-odd different aircraft they manufacture.
but my original point that $400bn is w-a-a-a-y too much money to spend on a single plane's development still stands.
imagine how much more beneficial it would be for the money to go to cancer research instead?

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#58    skookum

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 01:07 PM

I remember all this when Eurofighter was being developed.  Over budget, weather flight problems, years behind schedule and it still lacks effective air to ground capability as it is still in development.

Funny how people rave about it now and have started on the F35

http://en.wikipedia....fighter_Typhoon

Unfortunately things go wrong developing next generation fighters.

Edited by skookum, 24 February 2013 - 01:10 PM.

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#59    Rafterman

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:13 PM

View Postshrooma, on 24 February 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

.
'tens of thousands'??
I think you overestimate the number of people who work on the development of a new aircraft man!

Initial development perhaps, but these planes are built and flying.  Once it gets to that stage, there are tens of thousands of people relying on the project for their livelihood. From the lead engineers to the guy running the lunch truck parked outside the manufacturing site.

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#60    Gromdor

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:38 PM

So with the 400 billion we already spent and the thousands of jobs it provides, we are all in agreement with the OP.   It is too big to kill.  Is this a safe assumption?





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