4026 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

I've got a question before bed, what does anyone make of bûdar in this sentence? Wind rested in continuous/sina  - it says calm for bûdar - can anyone give me more info on calm for bûdar? What am I missing...

Hêl thene sümer was svnne a^eftere wolkum skolen, as wilde hja irtha navt ne sja. Wind reston in sina bûdar, werthrvch rêk a^end stom lik sêla boppa hus a^end polon stand.

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes.

[The Puzzler]

Apol, on 15 March 2013 - 02:15 PM, said:

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In fact, this is an interesting obseration.

You have the word Tjoð (52/20), Tjvð (39/22) or Ðjud (97/11, 113/14) - which means 'subjects'.
You have the word Tjod (204/22, 205/19) or Ðjvd (2/20) - which means 'nasty', 'foul', 'bad'.
And you have also the word Tsjod.ishêd (159/17) - which means 'foolishness' or 'folly'.

In the Christian tradition we say about something evil that it is not 'human'.
It seems like the ancient Frisians said about something evil or stupid that it is "human" (Tjoð).

I doubt, though, that the word biðjuta, biðjod, biðjude is of the same etymology, but I'm not sure about it.

The middle one could be the same as bode - http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=bode

As a shortened form of forebode (usually evil)

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Maybe v is equal to ou or oo sound when used in the OLB, when it's not v or when just u is being used.

Thrvch = thrOUgh
Svn = soon/zoon but became son in English, a variation on soun/soon
Maybe even when it's an O after an I - ion - jon - jvn


I've only really glanced at it, but thought it might be a pattern.

Bvda might be more Bou or Boo - as said before beu - teu-ta

http://en.wikipedia....eutoburg_Forest

It's very late, I'm just tossing things around but now I'm going to bed.  

Edited by The Puzzler, 15 March 2013 - 04:54 PM.

[gestur]

The Puzzler, on 15 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

I agree Tysk is from thjud.

I did not say that.
In fact, I believe Tysk is derived from TWISK, not from THJUD.

[Van Gorp]

The Puzzler, on 15 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I've got a question before bed, what does anyone make of bûdar in this sentence? Wind rested in continuous/sina  - it says calm for bûdar - can anyone give me more info on calm for bûdar? What am I missing...

Hêl thene sümer was svnne a^eftere wolkum skolen, as wilde hja irtha navt ne sja. Wind reston in sina bûdar, werthrvch rêk a^end stom lik sêla boppa hus a^end polon stand.

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes.

Hi Puzzler,

I think it is the same as the other bûdar: buidel, zak.
Look like the 'windbuitel', 'windzak'

-> when wind is calm, it doesn't go through the windzak, but seems to rest within by which the windzak falls down.




edit: by looking at the text i saw a funny but simple explanation of our word 'vreemd' (like stranger).
Maybe allready noticed, but new for me.

Kvmat thêr fêrhêmande kâpljud -> vreemd coming from ver-hemend (far living) :-)

Edited by Van Gorp, 15 March 2013 - 06:39 PM.

[gestur]

The Puzzler, on 15 March 2013 - 12:50 PM, said:

it starts to sound like Swiss...
twi-s-k
zwischen

Swiss indeed sounds like "zwischen" (German for between, betwixt, TWISK), but...

it is from Switserland (German: Schweiz =>> sounds like "-tz" --- Dutch: Zwitserland).

In OLB, "SWETSAR" is the word for "neighbours".

[Apol]

The Puzzler, on 15 March 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I've got a question before bed, what does anyone make of bûdar in this sentence? Wind rested in continuous/sina  - it says calm for bûdar - can anyone give me more info on calm for bûdar? What am I missing...

Hêl thene sümer was svnne a^eftere wolkum skolen, as wilde hja irtha navt ne sja. Wind reston in sina bûdar, werthrvch rêk a^end stom lik sêla boppa hus a^end polon stand.

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes.

The word buda, bûdar is utilized six times in the OLB - at the pages 44/9, 49/15, 126/26, 150/32, 151/16 and 166/8, and as far as I have detected, it means 'pouch', 'bag', 'sack', 'purse', 'bellow', 'bubble', 'pocket'.

I'm translating this particular sentence into: the wind rested in its bellows, because it is associated with a bellows like the one they used at the fireplace, inside which the wind rested before it was to be blown out.

Edited by Apol, 16 March 2013 - 03:41 AM.

[The Puzzler]

gestur, on 15 March 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

I did not say that.
In fact, I believe Tysk is derived from TWISK, not from THJUD.

Oh, I thought you did.

"But in German and Dutch it is Deutschland/ Duitsland, which is derived from THJUD = folk, people AND duiden/ deuten (explain, interpret)."

I gave my explanation anyway on how Twisk is twisk and tysk is deutsch/people and IMO they are not related, but it's good to toss it over more.

Edited by The Puzzler, 16 March 2013 - 04:22 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Apol, on 16 March 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

The word buda, bûdar is utilized six times in the OLB - at the pages 44/9, 49/15, 126/26, 150/32, 151/16 and 166/8, and as far as I have detected, it means 'pouch', 'bag', 'sack', 'purse', 'bellow', 'bubble', 'pocket'.

I'm translating this particular sentence into: the wind rested in its bellows, because it is associated with a bellows like the one they used at the fireplace, inside which the wind rested before it was to be blown out.

OK, thank you Apol and also Van Gorp for your explanation, which I think bellows might cover as windsack - zac as sack/budel/purse, I get it. 6 times, thanks for that too.

sina in the OLB is continuous, the English translation has perpetual - sina budar


Actually maybe the wind rested its continuous sack - like van gorps concept - he rested his bellows (it's wind blowing mechanism), maybe, not 'in it's bellows'. Rested it's continuous onslaught/sacking/blowing/bellowing. I imagine the wind doesn't rest all that much up there.

Thank you again.

Edited by The Puzzler, 16 March 2013 - 04:28 AM.

[Apol]

The Puzzler, on 15 March 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

The middle one could be the same as bode - http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=bode

As a shortened form of forebode (usually evil)

--------------------------------------

Maybe v is equal to ou or oo sound when used in the OLB, when it's not v or when just u is being used.

Thrvch = thrOUgh
Svn = soon/zoon but became son in English, a variation on soun/soon
Maybe even when it's an O after an I - ion - jon - jvn


I've only really glanced at it, but thought it might be a pattern.

Bvda might be more Bou or Boo - as said before beu - teu-ta

http://en.wikipedia....eutoburg_Forest

It's very late, I'm just tossing things around but now I'm going to bed.  

I have become more and more convinced that the people of Bvda were the Batavians - though not at the time when they are mentioned in the OLB. The Batavians were an offshoot of the Catti, who resided in the area where the rivers Fulda and Eder are at their closest to river Lahn. Kattaburch in today's Kassel was their burch, which must have been founded after ca. 550 BC. It is first mentioned in the manuscript around 300 BC in connection with Friso, who sent his brother-in-law, Hetto, there. The burgh is not mentioned in the list of the grietmen.
As a consequence of conflicts within the Catti around 50 BC, a fraction of them were driven away. That fraction made its way south on the Rhine, where it established itself in the delta and became the people whom the Romans called Batavians. It is unclear whether the newcomers formed a ruling class and subjugated the existing inhabitants, or if the existing inhabitants were expelled. This was in a time without a folkmother any longer with power to avoid conflicts like these.
It was natural of the invading Catti branch to borrow its name from the burgh of Bvda and name itself something like 'Budavians'. The reason why they established themselves at the burgh of Bvda and the surrounding areas, was that they didn't want to lose the control they had had of the Rhine and its tributaries when they were a part of the Catti. Place-names like Büderich (‘Buda Realm’), Bodenheim (‘Buda Home’), Bateige (‘Buda Possession’) etc. along the river bear witness of the 'Budavians' having had a need of marking their area through settlements and place-names towards their enemies, the remaining Catti; and several of their places were situated at the confluences of tributaries.
At first I wondered why not one single of these place-names are to be found along River Lahn, which runs east from Koblenz. There are also few along River Mosel, which runs west from the same point - after all, these two traffic arteries are the two most important ones linked with the Rhine; they meet and cross the Rhine at the so-called 'Deutsches Eck' in Koblenz. However, when I now understand the context in toto, it is all obvious to me: Lahn was the road to where the original Catti lived, who now were deprived of their control of the Rhine. However, they had probably managed to retain a certain control of Mosel, so that they could continue their trade to well into France.

Edited by Apol, 16 March 2013 - 06:02 AM.

[gestur]

The Puzzler, on 16 March 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

sina in the OLB is continuous, the English translation has perpetual - sina budar

No: sina budar = his/its bags (german: seine Beutel /// dutch: zijn buidels)

The english Sandbach translation here is, as in many cases, not very accurate.

[gestur]

Abramelin, on 09 March 2013 - 11:17 PM, said:

I think Goffe Jensma was right after all: it is about religion.
And I would like to add: racism.

Earlier I said I agree, but let me be more precise:
There are indeed themes in OLB dealing with the different races and problems mixing them.

IMO, the best summary of what the book is about, is the gradual decline of an ancient civilization or culture.

[gestur]

Apol, on 16 March 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

I have become more and more convinced that the people of Bvda were the Batavians - though not at the time when they are mentioned in the OLB. [...]

This whole post is worth reading more than once. Thanks Apol. You are a good thinker.

[The Puzzler]

gestur, on 16 March 2013 - 05:54 AM, said:

No: sina budar = his/its bags (german: seine Beutel /// dutch: zijn buidels)

The english Sandbach translation here is, as in many cases, not very accurate.

Maybe, but I think sina is probably sin/continuous. The wind rested in continuous (calm) bûdar/baggy/slack...

sin

(1) 1 und häufiger?, afries., Adj.: nhd. beständig, dauernd; ne. continous; Vw.:

s. -hê-r-a, -hÆ-g-en, -kal-e; Hw.: vgl. got. *sins, ae. sin-; E.: germ. *sena-, *senaz,

Adj., alt, immer, umfassend; s. idg. *seno-, *sen-, Adj., alt, Pokorny 907; L.: Hh

93b, Rh 1016a
in Old English in (prep.) "in, into, upon, on, at, among; about, during;" inne (adv.) "within, inside," from Proto-Germanic *in (cf. Old Frisian, Dutch, German, Gothic in, Old Norse i),

in

36, en (2), afries., Präp., Adv.: nhd. in, hinein; ne. into

Edited by The Puzzler, 16 March 2013 - 06:50 AM.

[Apol]

The Puzzler, on 16 March 2013 - 04:21 AM, said:

OK, thank you Apol and also Van Gorp for your explanation, which I think bellows might cover as windsack - zac as sack/budel/purse, I get it. 6 times, thanks for that too.

sina in the OLB is continuous, the English translation has perpetual - sina budar


Actually maybe the wind rested its continuous sack - like van gorps concept - he rested his bellows (it's wind blowing mechanism), maybe, not 'in it's bellows'. Rested it's continuous onslaught/sacking/blowing/bellowing. I imagine the wind doesn't rest all that much up there.

Thank you again.

In Norwegian we would say: Vinden hvilte i sine belger - where sine is the pronoun meaning 'its'. I think Sandbach just periphrased the sentence because he found it troublesome.

Edited by Apol, 16 March 2013 - 07:03 AM.

[Apol]

gestur, on 16 March 2013 - 06:06 AM, said:

This whole post is worth reading more than once. Thanks Apol. You are a good thinker.

Thank you for that compliment, 'gestur'.