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Atlantis


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#2191    third_eye

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 12:57 PM

when are bookings available ?

is travel insurance included ?

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#2192    AlnilamPhiSiriusly

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 01:03 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 17 April 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

when are bookings available ?

is travel insurance included ?
Obviously


#2193    monk 56

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:38 PM

Dear Third Eye,

If i like you it isn't the Kiss of Death unless you go pit bull on me, i like polite debate, i'm a frail human such as you, perhaps many cities have disappeared below the waves...please note rules to this:-

1) Volcanoe mentioned on above links happened 3,500 years ago, not 12,000 years ago, perhaps in that basis a city did slip below the waves....so what, it isn't 12,000 years ago!

2) i love Plato and Greek philosophers, but i'm interested in how to apply religion in a modern concept, and as an astronomer i can't go beyond start of Julian calendar of 1st January 0045BC with any analysis.

3) i have no connection to AlnilamPhiSiriusly!


#2194    Harte

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:05 PM

View PostProclus, on 16 April 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

No, no "faith" at all. The correction of the date is even required if Atlantis was an invention!
Because we cannot apply Plato's ancient views to a modern view.
An ancient view can only be applied to an ancient time frame,
and if we translate to a modern timeframe then all dates (invented or real) have to be adapted.
You cannot say that Plato thought with 9000 years (ancient dating) of the end of the ice age (modern time frame),
Plato clearly thought of a date within Egyptian history, not without,
so in order to keep this we cannot imagine a date before 3000 BC.
Even if Plato invented it all.
An absurd statement.

Plato knew the number "3,000."  He chose the number "9,500."

Why did do this?

To put Atlantis far enough into the past to remove it from his present-day society, as well as to position it in an heroic time period - the "Golden" past when every Athenian was great.

The idea that we must place Atlantis in 3,000 BC is ludricrous, because Atlantis has nothing whatsoever to do with the founding of Egypt, in fact or in Plato's allegory.

The truth is, Plato's priests of Sais date the invasion of the Atlantians to before the founding of Sais. And, they imply that it was well before.

Quote

Solon marvelled at his words, and earnestly requested the priests to inform him exactly and in order about these former citizens. You are welcome to hear about them, Solon, said the priest, both for your own sake and for that of your city, and above all, for the sake of the goddess who is the common patron and parent and educator of both our cities. She founded your city a thousand years before ours, receiving from the Earth and Hephaestus the seed of your race, and afterwards she founded ours, of which the constitution is recorded in our sacred registers to be eight thousand years old.
Timaeus

Quote

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe.
Critias

The idea that Plato "meant" 3,000 years when he plainly said otherwise is ridiculous.  Where does Plato link the origin of Egypt to the rise of (or fall of) Atlantis?

Remember, all we have here is Plato's words.  We have nothing from any priest of Sais, nothing from Socrates (who was dead before Plato wrote of Atlantis) nothing from the character Critias (or Timaeus,) real or imaginary.

Harte

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#2195    monk 56

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 04:25 PM

Whatever Harte,

I'm just responding to video's given in credit of Atlantis, i note volcano wasn't 10,000 or 12,000 years ago, it is highly likely that a city through a volcano disappeared 3,500 years ago, if that is related to Plato is just pie is the sky!

Edited by monk 56, 17 April 2013 - 04:30 PM.


#2196    monk 56

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 05:57 PM

Please note humour with Pie in the sky with PI, ha ha!


#2197    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:21 PM

View PostHarte, on 17 April 2013 - 04:05 PM, said:

An absurd statement.

Plato knew the number "3,000."  He chose the number "9,500."

Why did do this?

To put Atlantis far enough into the past to remove it from his present-day society, as well as to position it in an heroic time period - the "Golden" past when every Athenian was great.

The idea that we must place Atlantis in 3,000 BC is ludricrous, because Atlantis has nothing whatsoever to do with the founding of Egypt, in fact or in Plato's allegory.

The truth is, Plato's priests of Sais date the invasion of the Atlantians to before the founding of Sais. And, they imply that it was well before.

Timaeus


Critias

The idea that Plato "meant" 3,000 years when he plainly said otherwise is ridiculous.  Where does Plato link the origin of Egypt to the rise of (or fall of) Atlantis?

Remember, all we have here is Plato's words.  We have nothing from any priest of Sais, nothing from Socrates (who was dead before Plato wrote of Atlantis) nothing from the character Critias (or Timaeus,) real or imaginary.

Harte

And more importantly, IMO, there's nothing from Solon himself.

cormac

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#2198    whitegandalf

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:25 PM

The only soft evidence that links thera to the atlantis myth is a volcano blowout and the folowing tsunami. No hard evidence for the theory exist. Plenty of soft evidence against the theory however do exist.

Wrong time

Wrong place, in front of/outside the pillars

Wrong size, atlantis was much larger

No large wood resources on island or region, which are needed to build many ships ( atlantis was in a warmer period with even fewer trees than today)

No large storable food source on island or the region, as farming and animal domestication still was not invented

No finds, after the site was proposed noone has found anything above or under sealevel that relates to atlantis, no underwater structures that can be buildings and temples has been shown on underwater ground scans. If it was there we would have found it.

Edited by whitegandalf, 17 April 2013 - 07:05 PM.


#2199    Harte

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

The best way of linking Thera to Atlantis is to suppose that Plato may have possibly heard of the devastaion at Thera, and the subsequent devastation by tsunami of much of that part of the Med.

However, the Thera explosion predated Plato by 1300 years or so.  We have no surviving oral tradition or written documants that might be used to indicate that the story of Thera survived into Plato's time, so it's unlikely.

The idea of trying to find Plato's "inspiration" for Atlantis is foolhardy as well, since the actual inspiration is well-known, and easily divined for those who don't know it.

Plato's inspiration was his distaste for the society he lived in.  All the rest is just stage dressing.  It's possible, then, that Thera could have provided some details that Plato inserted into his story.  It's much more possible that the destruction of Helike, which happened during Plato's life (and not far from where he grew up,) could have provided the same details.

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#2200    DieChecker

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:39 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Moses also travelled away in 40 days and 40 nights, ( when his people made a golden statue while he was gone) this could also mean he traveled to the kingdom of 40 days and 40 nights. Why else mention nights when you all ready have sayd how many days you have been gone. Who does/ say that today? Makes no sense, unless its a place.
The key statement here is... "Who does/ say that today?", which of course is ridiculous to expect the ancients to have lived by some modern expectation. The fact that several sources mentions days and nights would seem to indicate that saying how many days and nights a voyage took, or how far it was to the next town, would have been common. Judging off what a modern person thinks is naive thinking.

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#2201    Quaentum

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:40 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

Small words can mean two things, therefor a translation or a oral tradition can over thousands of year loose its meaning.

Det regner ( i ) bergen, it rains ( in ) bergen, det regner ( i ) 40 dager, it rains ( for ) 40 days.

In norwegian the same word ( i ) means two different things, in and for. Therefor it is a part of the bible floodstory can mean two things. Time or place.

The texts referred to by me were not written in Norwegian.  For this part to even have a chance to be possible you need to show that it was the same in Sumerian, Babylonian and Hebrew

whitegandalf said:

Moses also travelled away in 40 days and 40 nights, ( when his people made a golden statue while he was gone) this could also mean he traveled to the kingdom of 40 days and 40 nights. Why else mention nights when you all ready have sayd how many days you have been gone. Who does/ say that today? Makes no sense, unless its a place.

Moses was up on Mt Sinai for (not in) 40 days and 40 nights.  Can you show that Mt Sinai is near the North Sea?

whitegandalf said:

Same with in front of the pillars, this can also mean two tings, outside or in front of. In fact several of translation i have read use the words outside, and not in front of. The greek also saw the outside of the pillars as a seperate world they knew little about. Their own world lied within the pillars. Therefor this is a natural boarder between two worlds and it makes more sense to say outside.

This link http://www.cakravart...plete-works.pdf  Is the literal translation of the complete works of Plato in one pdf file.

The translation on page 2749 says in part "there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles"  Since it is a literal translation it is exactly what Plato wrote,  In front of, not outside of.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2202    DieChecker

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Ever heard of hyperborea and the titans? Hyperborea was an island, also called the island of light nights, the land north of the north wind, Home of gods. Thought long to lie at the north pole. The days lasted 24 hours, which places it above the arctic circle. Why cant this be part of the atlantis myth? And why does platon mention poseidon and atlas, which are important caracters in both stories?
Is that the same island as Hy-Brasil?
http://en.wikipedia....mythical_island)

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#2203    Quaentum

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:03 PM

View Postwhitegandalf, on 17 April 2013 - 02:01 AM, said:

Ever heard of hyperborea and the titans? Hyperborea was an island, also called the island of light nights, the land north of the north wind, Home of gods. Thought long to lie at the north pole. The days lasted 24 hours, which places it above the arctic circle. Why cant this be part of the atlantis myth? And why does platon mention poseidon and atlas, which are important caracters in both stories?

Though some sources refer to it as a peninsula or an island, those were later sources.  The earlier ones agreed, to an extent, that it was located in northern Greece or southern Europe.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#2204    cormac mac airt

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 17 April 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

Though some sources refer to it as a peninsula or an island, those were later sources.  The earlier ones agreed, to an extent, that it was located in northern Greece or southern Europe.

Usually given as being north of Thrace, IIRC.

cormac

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#2205    whitegandalf

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:28 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 17 April 2013 - 07:40 PM, said:



The texts referred to by me were not written in Norwegian.  For this part to even have a chance to be possible you need to show that it was the same in Sumerian, Babylonian and Hebrew


Moses was up on Mt Sinai for (not in) 40 days and 40 nights.  Can you show that Mt Sinai is near the North Sea?


This link http://www.cakravart...plete-works.pdf  Is the literal translation of the complete works of Plato in one pdf file.

The translation on page 2749 says in part "there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles"  Since it is a literal translation it is exactly what Plato wrote,  In front of, not outside of.

I dont know how to read either language and dont know anyone who does. Would be interesting to have an expert on ancient language and meaning of words to check if there are any room for an inaccurasy.

But still we are talking about a very long time, where these texts in egypt must have been translated at least a few times, maybe lost and retold orally for periods of time, before platon finally wrote it down. Small changes especially in these kind of words could have happened.

It is normal practice to for agressive imperial powers to rename the places and mountains they invade after places from their homeland. As greece and sorrounding area was occupied by atlantis for a long time it wouldent surprise me if there was a mount sinai in atlantis too





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