2489 replies to this topic

[skyeagle409]

Little Fish, on 30 January 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

here is an article written today which answers all your questions. it is one of the best and most succinct articles I've seen written on the subject.
you can save yourself months of reading just by reading this article, so i won't waste my time writing what's already written.

Shift some money to the Pentagon.

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Clock ticking to disastrous defense cuts


Because of the failure of the supercommittee to agree on a deficit reduction plan, the 2011 Budget Control Act automatically cuts about $500 billion from the defense budget. These cuts fall on top of the already agreed-upon $487 billion in reductions. All told, the cuts would amount to about $1 trillion over a decade.

http://www.cnn.com/2...cuts/index.html


Pentagon issues dire warning to Congress about budget cuts


WASHINGTON (AP) - The nation's top military leaders warned Congress in unusually stark terms that its failure to pass a 2013 defense budget _ coupled with the threat of automatic budget cuts _ has pushed the Pentagon to the brink of a crisis.

http://www.federalne...out-budget-cuts

[Little Fish]

Babe Ruth, on 30 January 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Neocons in cahoots with Israeli interests, is what it looks like to me.

and who do those two answer to?

[Babe Ruth]

Little Fish, on 30 January 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

and who do those two answer to?

Just themselves?

[Little Fish]

Babe Ruth, on 30 January 2013 - 08:09 PM, said:

Just themselves?

I don't see that.
their imagined event was presented and published through the cfr, and echoed previously by brzezinski's writings as necessary for the US to prevail as hegemon. (afghanistan is the key to the "middle space" that is central asia). they may have been the technical implementors but the plan was considered necessary and came from the bowels of the establishment. Israel could not and would not have done it unaided and out of the blue, as I said the tail can't wag the dog.

''If the middle space can be drawn increasingly into the expanding orbit of the West (where America preponderates), if the southern region is not subjected to domination by a single player, and if the East is not unified in a manner that prompts the expulsion of America from its offshore bases, America can then be said to prevail. But if the middle space rebuffs the West, becomes an assertive single entity, and either gains control over the South or forms an alliance with the major Eastern actor, then America's primacy in Eurasia shrinks dramatically.'' - brzezinski, 1997

now look at what has happened since 911, the US has expanded throughout central asia encircling china and russia with bases exactly as brzezinski had outlined for the post cold war, with 911 being the pretext for all of it. I can't accept that their bogey man just fell into their laps just 3 years later.

Edited by Little Fish, 30 January 2013 - 08:50 PM.

[skyeagle409]

Little Fish, on 30 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

now look at what has happened since 911, the US has expanded throughout central asia encircling china and russia with bases exactly as brzezinski had outlined for the post cold war, with 911 being the pretext for all of it. I can't accept that their bogey man just fell into their laps just 3 years later.

The United States has had bases around China and Russia for decades and has since, pulled back from some bases. We've pulled combat troops out of Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and combat troops are to be pulled out of  Afghanistan by the end of next year.

Russia and the United States are friends and in fact, the USAF is thinking of basing B-52 bombers in Russia. People are largely unaware that Russia has flown bombers and fighters into the United States and the United States has flown military aircraft into Russia.



B-52s and Tu-95s together on the tarmac at Barksdale AFB, Louisiana during the May 1992 Russian visit

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2nd Bomb Wing delegation visits Russia



http://www.afgsc.af....sp?id=123313284


The Bomber Exchange Program

“We’re going to fly B-52s to Russia, and they’re going to fly Tu-95 Bears to Barksdale,” 2nd Bomb Wing Commander Colonel Andrew Gebara told an Air Force Global Strike Command (hardly the chummiest of names if your goal is world peace and harmony) reporter recently. Gebara recently led a seven-member delegation from Louisiana’s Barksdale Air Force Base to Engels Air Base in Saratov, Russia, to assess the Russian base’s suitability for B-52 ops.

Read more: http://nation.time.c.../#ixzz2JUlBr2gw

In fact, many people are unaware that part of the German Air Force is operating from New Mexico.

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Holloman AFB, (German Air Force Flying Training Center, New Mexico



German Luftwaffe Panavia Tornado based at Holloman AFB, New Mexico

http://www.militarya...B-Holloman.html

And, people are unaware the USAF has had MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-29 Soviet fighters in its inventory and the U.S. Army has been flying Soviet-built helicopters.

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MiG-29 at the Air Force Museum, Dayton, Ohio.



MiG-29, two-seater, at the Air Force Museum, Dayton, Ohio.



MiG-29 in Nevada



MiG-29 in Nevada

Were you aware that some McDonnell-Douglas MD-80s were built in China?

Edited by skyeagle409, 30 January 2013 - 09:59 PM.

[Q24]

Little Fish, on 30 January 2013 - 01:46 PM, said:

to understand power we have to realise that the tail does not wag the dog. it is inconceivable that just a group of neocons orchestrated 911 against the knowledge and will of that power described above. there are also pre-911 connections to that power that connect at a higher level through the cfr, skull and bones and brzezinski's writings etc. sure, it's easy to prove the neocons did it, but to stop there is just being played for a fool as much as those that stop at AQ are being played as fools, just mo.

Is a dog and tail the best way to visualize this?  In many ways it’s more a symbiotic relationship - the Wolf and Raven seem a fitting comparison to the Neocon and elite.  The ravens feed on the wolves’ kill, certainly would not disapprove, and often guide the way.  Still, it is the wolf most directly and visibly responsible for the attack - as you mention, it is easy to prove that the Neocons did it.  But how could we ever prove that the ravens were equally responsible?  Can we nail responsibility on the elites to the same degree as Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc?  I think you agree not (and that is a problem), but that we should be aware of the greater chessboard.

Of course, all this would appropriately make Al Qaeda the wolf in sheep’s clothing!

[skyeagle409]

Little Fish, on 30 January 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

Iif the southern region is not subjected to domination by a single player, and if the East is not unified in a manner that prompts the expulsion of America from its offshore bases, America can then be said to prevail.

Leading the charge for American world domination are fast food chains and soft drink manufacturers.

http://rbth.ru/artic...rket_17647.html

[DONTEATUS]

Thats right CT fans We dont need no stinkin Secret weapons ! We have Big-Mac`s IT will Kill millions in the next few years over seas !

[skyeagle409]

DONTEATUS, on 31 January 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Thats right CT fans We dont need no stinkin Secret weapons ! We have Big-Mac`s IT will Kill millions in the next few years over seas !

Yepper!!

On another note, 911 CT folks depend much on Richard Gage and Steven Jones in regards to thermite, but what they didn't know was that Richard Gage got caught lying during an interview about thermite, the collapse of  the WTC buildings and the number of people he claimed heard explosions. An examination of seismic data proved beyond any doubt that Richard Gage was incorrect on his claim that the WTC buildings collapsed at free fall speeds, but no seismic data was needed to determine that the WTC buildings did not collapse at free fall speeds because it was evident in the videos the WTC buildings did not collapse at free fall speeds and yet there are 911 CT folks who allowed themselves to be duped by Richard Gage.

In addition, Steven Jones has been discredited by demolition experts and even by his colleagues at BYU.

Edited by skyeagle409, 31 January 2013 - 07:04 AM.

[redhen]

Q24, on 30 January 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

Is a dog and tail the best way to visualize this?

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In many ways it’s more a symbiotic relationship - the Wolf and Raven seem a fitting comparison to the Neocon and elite.

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But how could we ever prove that the ravens were equally responsible?  

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Can we nail responsibility on the elites

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we should be aware of the greater chessboard.

Quote

Of course, all this would appropriately make Al Qaeda the wolf in sheep’s clothing!

Truthers seem really big on metaphors, not so much on logic.

Metaphorically speaking, I think your theory is a shot in the dark.

[Babe Ruth]

I agree with Q, regarding the best way to visualize, if visualization is part of the process of understanding.  Tail wagging dog is just an analogy, but it works pretty well for me.

I am not sufficiently educated about all the nuances of The Powers That Be to make any valid perceptions.  "Elite" encompasses many people, for me.

Israel in cahoots with neocons, in cahoots with others, is how I see it.  Bollyn blames it all on the Israelis, and makes a pretty good case for it, but in the end, it was certainly a team effort.  For me, I cannot say with any certainty who the other members of the team were.

[redhen]

Babe Ruth, on 31 January 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

I agree with Q, regarding the best way to visualize, if visualization is part of the process of understanding.  Tail wagging dog is just an analogy, but it works pretty well for me.

Sure, analogies sometimes can be useful and can be valid parts of an argument. Other times analogies and metaphors are simply cheap ways of masking flaws in an weak argument. The only reason I responded was that Q's latest post was chock full of these visualizations.

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I am not sufficiently educated about all the nuances of The Powers That Be to make any valid perceptions.  "Elite" encompasses many people, for me.

Yeah, it's all pretty vague isn't it? It's more like a hunch or a feeling.

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Israel in cahoots with neocons, in cahoots with others, is how I see it.  Bollyn blames it all on the Israelis, and makes a pretty good case for it, but in the end, it was certainly a team effort.  For me, I cannot say with any certainty who the other members of the team were.

A team effort? Perhaps this A Team?

[Q24]

redhen, on 31 January 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Truthers seem really big on metaphors, not so much on logic.

Metaphorically speaking, I think your theory is a shot in the dark.

Did you know there is believed to be a link between the use of analogies (under which metaphors fall) and cognitive ability; memory, reasoning, learning?  Perhaps it is no coincidence that you observe, "Truthers seem really big on metaphors".  I see no reason to disagree there.

http://cogsci.uni-os...st_KIThemenheft

Anyhow, thank you – your opinion doesn’t demonstrate any understanding of the subject or metaphor(s), let alone attempt constructive evaluation of the logic therein – therefore I’m not sure the theory is a shot in the dark so much as your views remain in the dark.  But don’t worry about it, the post wasn’t aimed at you and neither is it intended to form a solid argument.  It was more of a musing toward people who have progressed to the level to consider it.

If you have time and want to go back to something more useful, then you might better address my post #710.  I took your lack of response to the information and questions (in particular regarding ‘Neocon goals’ and ‘what would you have done in the CIA position?’) as an admission of your acceptance.

[redhen]

Q24, on 31 January 2013 - 03:51 PM, said:

Anyhow, thank you – your opinion doesn’t demonstrate any understanding of the subject or metaphor(s), let alone attempt constructive evaluation of the logic therein

That's because I didn't see any logic. All I keep seeing is a bunch of names of people, organizations, categories of people or occupations, allegedly all tied together for some nefarious purpose, that involved the murder of 3,000 U.S. citizens on American soil.

Quote

If you have time and want to go back to something more useful, then you might better address my post #710.  I took your lack of response to the information and questions (in particular regarding ‘Neocon goals’ and ‘what would you have done in the CIA position?’) as an admission of your acceptance.

You wrote;

Quote

The one overriding goal was to maintain American global pre-eminence into the 21^st century - a noble enough goal in of itself.  You see, it’s not that Neocon aims are “crazy” or “evil” or “dumb” as I’ve heard people say.  They actually achieved a lot and their arguments are logically quite sound.  Anyhow, to achieve that overriding goal, the Neocons believed this depended heavily on three interlinked sub-goals: -

• To increase influence in the Gulf region.
  
• To increase military spending back to Cold War levels.
  
• To control access to the region’s oil.

All three have been achieved due to 9/11; the “transforming event” which the Neocons knew was required.  Is it a coincidence that the catalyst; the most significant attack on the U.S. since Pearl Harbor, came within the year those very same policy-makers came to power?

The same goals can also be attributed to the Soviet... er I mean Russian empire. Your insinuation that the timing of the attacks and the then recent U.S. election was more than coincidental, is just that, an insinuation.  So let me revise my claim;

Truthers are heavy into metaphor, analogy, insinuation, inferences and implications.

I previously had suggested we take up a collection here on the UM forum to enable a court case to be filed against Bush, Cheney et al. But I see someone actually tried that, with less than stellar results, lol.

"Army specialist April Gallup filed suit claiming that Vice President Dick Cheney, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld and other Bush administration officials orchestrated the 9/11 attacks and the Pentagon was hit by an attack ordered by Cheney. The suit was dismissed in 2010 by Judge Denny Chin, who said the claim was "the product of cynical delusion and fantasy". Her lawyers filed an appeal to the U.S. Court of Appeals which in April 2010 issued a show cause order why the lawyers and Gallup should not be sanctioned for filing a frivolous lawsuit. Her lawyers asked that the judges on the Court of Appeals recuse themselves because their emotions made them prejudge the case and abuse their power. On October 14, 2011 the judges sanctioned her lawyers $15,000 each for both the frivolous lawsuits and the accusations of prejudice"

So, forget about my request to "put your money where your mouth is", you seem like a decent enough fellow, I wouldn't want you to lose your shirt.

[skyeagle409]

Babe Ruth, on 31 January 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

Israel in cahoots with neocons, in cahoots with others, is how I see it.  Bollyn blames it all on the Israelis, and makes a pretty good case for it, but in the end, it was certainly a team effort.  For me, I cannot say with any certainty who the other members of the team were.

You must remember that Israel was one of a number of countries that warned the United States of an impending attack by terrorist.