RobertaStack Posted June 22, 2015 #1 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Hi, I'm new to these forums and might be starting things off on a strange foot with this topic. I recently watched a National Geograpic episode about crocodiles that were burrowing beneath the African desert in the dry seasons and going into a state of hibernation. They were located fairly close to the Dogon Tribe who care for the crocodiles. Their mythology indicates that the sacred crocodile came from the stars (the Dogon Tribe surprised the world by their knowledge of star maps, particularly in regards to the Sirius star system). Accounts of reptilian humanoids indicate that they emerge from the center of the earth while other accounts paint them as extraterrestrial. Could the story of the Dogon and their sacred crocodiles or the new studies on subterranean hibernating crocodiles lend more fuel to the reptilian humanoid fire? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.United_Nations Posted June 22, 2015 #2 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Kinda like how the dragons in the Ice and Fire novellas, where the moon bursts open and thousands of dragons came pouring out 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted June 22, 2015 #3 Share Posted June 22, 2015 The claims of the Dogon and the Sirius star system are not true. That is a modern myth that has been created. There is ample evidence that the Dogon were introduced to the Sirius star system complexities by missionaries that went to that part of Africa. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted June 22, 2015 #4 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Hi, I'm new to these forums and might be starting things off on a strange foot with this topic. I recently watched a National Geograpic episode about crocodiles that were burrowing beneath the African desert in the dry seasons and going into a state of hibernation. They were located fairly close to the Dogon Tribe who care for the crocodiles. Their mythology indicates that the sacred crocodile came from the stars (the Dogon Tribe surprised the world by their knowledge of star maps, particularly in regards to the Sirius star system). Accounts of reptilian humanoids indicate that they emerge from the center of the earth while other accounts paint them as extraterrestrial. Could the story of the Dogon and their sacred crocodiles or the new studies on subterranean hibernating crocodiles lend more fuel to the reptilian humanoid fire? No. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted June 22, 2015 #5 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Hi, I'm new to these forums and might be starting things off on a strange foot with this topic. I recently watched a National Geograpic episode about crocodiles that were burrowing beneath the African desert in the dry seasons and going into a state of hibernation. Many reptiles undergo a state of brumation when the climate gets too dry or too cold. It's a pretty cool mechanism, because they "wake up" when/if there's a sudden change. They were located fairly close to the Dogon Tribe who care for the crocodiles. Only one group of the Dogon, the Binou sect, uses the crocodile as its totem animal Their mythology indicates that the sacred crocodile came from the stars (the Dogon Tribe surprised the world by their knowledge of star maps, particularly in regards to the Sirius star system). Accounts of reptilian humanoids indicate that they emerge from the center of the earth while other accounts paint them as extraterrestrial. Could the story of the Dogon and their sacred crocodiles or the new studies on subterranean hibernating crocodiles lend more fuel to the reptilian humanoid fire? The idea appears to be based on a number of mistaken impressions; primarily that the star Sirius had any meaning in the Dogon religion in the first place. Older ethnographic studies on the Dogon and on the Binou themselves does not show any such thing (these studies were done by French anthropologists and so are in French) * http://cemaf.cnrs.fr/IMG/pdf/5-clio.pdf * http://www.netwa-bamako.org/siteenfrancais/module4/eauetcosmologie.html (briefly discusses the cosmologies and how they influenced Voodoo) * http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/jafr_0037-9166_1950_num_20_2_2608 (interesting tidbits about their "harp" and their cosmology and symbolism (no Sirius, no reptile people) * this (in English) states that the crocodile became a totem after it helped an ancestor cross a river: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/var.1998.14.1.105/abstract * this talks about the "soul of water" and the Dogon and their concepts (including that elders near death changed into pythons and crocodiles) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/var.1998.14.1.105/abstract ...and so forth. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skep B Posted June 22, 2015 #6 Share Posted June 22, 2015 Good work guys You all kept your head on swivel, and that's what you gotta do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lugal Posted June 23, 2015 #7 Share Posted June 23, 2015 You would be a great guest on ancient aliens 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted June 23, 2015 #8 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Well ... I reckon I would be pretty good on Ancient Aliens too ! I would love to appear on that show 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted June 23, 2015 #9 Share Posted June 23, 2015 The claims of the Dogon and the Sirius star system are not true. That is a modern myth that has been created. There is ample evidence that the Dogon were introduced to the Sirius star system complexities by missionaries that went to that part of Africa. Why would missionaries teach them about the Sirius star system? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Duck Posted June 23, 2015 #10 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Why would missionaries teach them about the Sirius star system? Because they couldn't climb Mt Everest... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted June 23, 2015 #11 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Because they couldn't climb Mt Everest... ...I don't get it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
back to earth Posted June 23, 2015 #12 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Yep! It's those damn missionaries again ! An anthropologist would never carry on like that . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windowpane Posted June 23, 2015 #13 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Missionaries might not necessarily have been to blame. It's argued by some people (such as van Beek) that Griaule and Dieterlen used outdated methodology that resulted in them unwittingly influencing the tribal elders whom they were supposed to be questioning. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Wearer of Hats Posted June 23, 2015 #14 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Many reptiles undergo a state of brumation when the climate gets too dry or too cold. It's a pretty cool mechanism, because they "wake up" when/if there's a sudden change. Only one group of the Dogon, the Binou sect, uses the crocodile as its totem animal The idea appears to be based on a number of mistaken impressions; primarily that the star Sirius had any meaning in the Dogon religion in the first place. Older ethnographic studies on the Dogon and on the Binou themselves does not show any such thing (these studies were done by French anthropologists and so are in French) * http://cemaf.cnrs.fr/IMG/pdf/5-clio.pdf * http://www.netwa-bamako.org/siteenfrancais/module4/eauetcosmologie.html (briefly discusses the cosmologies and how they influenced Voodoo) * http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/jafr_0037-9166_1950_num_20_2_2608 (interesting tidbits about their "harp" and their cosmology and symbolism (no Sirius, no reptile people) * this (in English) states that the crocodile became a totem after it helped an ancestor cross a river: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/var.1998.14.1.105/abstract * this talks about the "soul of water" and the Dogon and their concepts (including that elders near death changed into pythons and crocodiles) http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/var.1998.14.1.105/abstract ...and so forth. They could be soulless minions of orthodoxy covering up The Truth . Remember, they were French. Slimey coves the French. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted June 23, 2015 #15 Share Posted June 23, 2015 I had also read in one scholarly critique that the "Sirius" mythology statement came from just ONE Dogon elder, who lived in the city and was therefore not necessarily a reliable source. In addition, this is not a "fixed" cosmogeny - many individuals have their own "spin" on the origin stories that are not shared by the whole culture. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted June 23, 2015 #16 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Why would missionaries teach them about the Sirius star system? The Dogon knew about Sirius. It is the brightest star in the night sky. What they did not know about was that Sirius had an unseen companion star. That is what the missionaries told the Dogon. Since then a myth has been created that the Dogon knew about the unseen Sirius B long before the Europeans arrived. They did not. It has led to some rather laughable stories that aliens from Sirius B came to Earth and visited the Dogon. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertaStack Posted June 23, 2015 Author #17 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Thanks for clearing up the misinformation, guys! Personally, I don't believe in a reptilian humanoid conspiracy but I do find the idea interesting. I know it gets under the skin of some people because it could seen as distracting from more important points but it's hard to ignore the color of such beliefs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 23, 2015 #18 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) I had also read in one scholarly critique that the "Sirius" mythology statement came from just ONE Dogon elder, who lived in the city and was therefore not necessarily a reliable source. In addition, this is not a "fixed" cosmogeny - many individuals have their own "spin" on the origin stories that are not shared by the whole culture. One wonders what aliens would think of our world if they picked up and used as a sole source of their information on Earth, Stalin, Von Daniken, Charles Manson or a modern but illiterate Gujerati speaker who has never left his native village north of Mumbai? I think the picture they would pain might be slightly different...... Edited June 23, 2015 by Hanslune 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry_Dresden Posted June 23, 2015 #19 Share Posted June 23, 2015 The Dogon knew about Sirius. It is the brightest star in the night sky. What they did not know about was that Sirius had an unseen companion star. That is what the missionaries told the Dogon. Since then a myth has been created that the Dogon knew about the unseen Sirius B long before the Europeans arrived. They did not. It has led to some rather laughable stories that aliens from Sirius B came to Earth and visited the Dogon. Makes sense. The Dogon identify with the brightest star in the night sky, Sirius, and the missionaries use it to build and establish friendship and trust through the sharing of knowledge. Had a little read on Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogon_people ) and it suggests the same as you. BUT from what I read in 1946 the French only knew of Sirius as a binary system. Whereas the the link says that the Dogan insisted that there was not just one secret companion star to Sirius but rather two. Astronomers were not to know of the other hidden companion to Sirius until the nineties. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 23, 2015 #20 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) Makes sense. The Dogon identify with the brightest star in the night sky, Sirius, and the missionaries use it to build and establish friendship and trust through the sharing of knowledge. Had a little read on Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikiped.../Dogon_people ) and it suggests the same as you. BUT from what I read in 1946 the French only knew of Sirius as a binary system. Whereas the the link says that the Dogan insisted that there was not just one secret companion star to Sirius but rather two. Astronomers were not to know of the other hidden companion to Sirius until the nineties. The visible star is now sometimes known as Sirius A. Since 1894, some apparent orbital irregularities in the Sirius system have been observed, suggesting a third very small companion star, but this has never been definitely confirmed. The best fit to the data indicates a six-year orbit around Sirius A and a mass of only 0.06 M☉. This star would be five to ten magnitudes fainter than the white dwarf Sirius B, which would account for the difficulty of observing it. Observations published in 2008 were unable to detect either a third star or a planet. An apparent "third star" observed in the 1920s is now confirmed as a background object. These are the latest two astronomical papers on Sirius in regards to a third companion http://adsabs.harvar...A&A...299..621B http://arxiv.org/abs/0809.4871 Edited June 23, 2015 by Hanslune 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Socks Junior Posted June 23, 2015 #21 Share Posted June 23, 2015 To be fair, the first paper indicates that the Dogon may have just been fooled by the orbital eccentricities into thinking there was a third star in the system. I'm sure they'll now bow to the 2008 paper's direct observation data. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanslune Posted June 23, 2015 #22 Share Posted June 23, 2015 (edited) To be fair, the first paper indicates that the Dogon may have just been fooled by the orbital eccentricities into thinking there was a third star in the system. I'm sure they'll now bow to the 2008 paper's direct observation data. Since they don't have anyway to view other than the main star I think the point is moot. I sent an email to one of the editors who posts on Sirius and pointed out that the present wording is outdated and the entry should be updated to include the latest Sirius astronomy results. Edited June 23, 2015 by Hanslune 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenemet Posted June 23, 2015 #23 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Thanks for clearing up the misinformation, guys! Personally, I don't believe in a reptilian humanoid conspiracy but I do find the idea interesting. I know it gets under the skin of some people because it could seen as distracting from more important points but it's hard to ignore the color of such beliefs. No problemo, Roberta! I just got fooled by a fake news story... these days, with no gatekeepers for information, it helps to check with the Hive Mind (as friends call it) for verification. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaylemurph Posted June 23, 2015 #24 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Thanks for clearing up the misinformation, guys! Personally, I don't believe in a reptilian humanoid conspiracy but I do find the idea interesting. I know it gets under the skin of some people because it could seen as distracting from more important points but it's hard to ignore the color of such beliefs. That's odd. I've never had a problem ignoring stupidity. --Jaylemurph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stereologist Posted June 24, 2015 #25 Share Posted June 24, 2015 (edited) Makes sense. The Dogon identify with the brightest star in the night sky, Sirius, and the missionaries use it to build and establish friendship and trust through the sharing of knowledge. Had a little read on Wikipedia ( https://en.m.wikiped.../Dogon_people ) and it suggests the same as you. BUT from what I read in 1946 the French only knew of Sirius as a binary system. Whereas the the link says that the Dogan insisted that there was not just one secret companion star to Sirius but rather two. Astronomers were not to know of the other hidden companion to Sirius until the nineties. The idea that the Dogon knew of Sirius B was an introduced idea. The existence of Sirius C is also an introduced idea. The idea that Sirius C was not known till the nineties is an issue that needs to be clarified. There is a difference between suggesting that there might be a third companion and actually determining that there is such a companion. Take a look at this paper and see that as of 1995 that third companion has not been observed, but inferred. You will also learn that long before the missionaries met the Dogon there was suspicion that there was a third star in the system. http://adsabs.harvar...A&A...299..621B I see that Hanslune beat me to the punch. Well done. Edited June 24, 2015 by stereologist 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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