Help identifying Cartouche

[back to earth]

I got a present the other day; a rolled up material 'scroll' when I unrolled it ...

It is about as long and wide as I am, it appears to be multiple layers of cloth stitched together and folded on the edges to make a thick recessed border and frame it appears to be applique and intricate embroidery making the design.

It looks like a lot of very careful and good work has gone into it ... I am guessing it is an up-market tourist thing from around 1970's ? ? ?

It is of an Egyptian figure. The lower part seems to be the top of a column with a circular spray of lotus and papyrus plants alternating. Then the top of the flat column with the figure standing on it. He hold the ankh in one hand and a type of little 'barbell' in the other ( what on earth are those things ? * ) a translucent long 'kilt' with ornate ( King's, I am supposing) belt , a pale green head dress ( which unfortunately seems a bit out of proportion - throwing the proportions of the figure off - the only 'fault' ) with serpent on brow. In front is a pot with 3 central papyrus and lotus on each side. Overhead is a hawk with one wing extended over the figure and carrying a shen.

In front are two cartouches side by side (sorry , I cant take a pic and post it) ;

The one on the left (top to bottom ) :

lower half of a disc - large

3 vertical squat bars and the upper half of a disc

(then the cartouche)

LIne 1 - Green figure squatting with was sceptre and wearing hedjet crown : twisted line (closed at top open at bottom, crossing 3 times) : a bundle of ? tied in the middle with 3 bands and next to it the top half of a disc.

Line 2 - 2 feathers : a 'stick figure' in a dress (looks like an elongated bell with a circle on top and long 'arms' by its sides ) :

3 - a box with overhanging horizontals top and bottom with a horizontal line in it ( coffer or tomb ? )

4. zig zag horizontal line

5 - large lower half of a disc.

2hd cartouche

Large lower half of a disc

2 large horizontal lines

Cartouche

LIne 1. circle with a smaller one inside

2. Seated figure with was sceptre and headband with feather: twisted line (as above) and under that 4 vertical lines on top of each other.

3 - a thick horizontal bar with 6 small vertical ones attached to its top edge

4 - a shallow lower half disc.

(I left out all the different colours )

( I have to say, I have no idea how they did the applique on these , its very fine an minute work (tucking under all the edges and stitching them in )

Well, I hope that isnt too much of an uneducated mess ? I am assuming it is a copy of a known piece and someone might recognise it ?

I'd like to know who he is .... standing at the edge of my bed like that .

* these things in their hands ;

Edited June 26, 2015 by back to earth

[kmt_sesh]

Why can't you take pictures, young man? Shame. Shame! May you be tied atop a geyser hole.

Anyway, I'm trying to picture the glyphs as you describe them, and what comes closest (at least as I see it) is this:

Or at least some variation of it. By your description, the glyphs preceding the first cartouche ("lower half of a disc - large...3 vertical squat bars and the upper half of a disc") could well be the royal epithet "Lord of Appearances" (see glyphs immediately in front of the left cartouche in this image, behind the duck and sun disk). The cartouche in my graphic above, if it's the one you're seeing too, says "Seti, Beloved of Ptah.

The glyphs preceding the second cartouche spell the epithet "Lord of the Two Lands" (see at center in this image). The cartouche says "Menmaatre" ("Established is the Truth of Re").

"Seti, Beloved of Ptah" is the nomen (birth name) of Seti I, who reigned early in Dynasty 19. His prenomen (throne name) was Menmaatre. He was one of the greatest pharaohs of the New Kingdom and the father of Ramesses II.

This is going off your description. I hope it helps.

As for the objects the statue clutches in each hand, no one knows for sure what they're meant to be. Some argue they're little papyrus-scroll cases while others say they just fill negative space so that the delicate hands won't cave in on themselves. I think they're light sabers.

[Kenemet]

: a bundle of ? tied in the middle with 3 bands

I believe that's 'mes' (F31)

Line 2 - 2 feathers : a 'stick figure' in a dress (looks like an elongated bell with a circle on top and long 'arms' by its sides ) :

Possibly the Tet knot?

3 - a box with overhanging horizontals top and bottom with a horizontal line in it ( coffer or tomb ? )

Alternative for the 'M' sound?

[back to earth]

Why can't you take pictures, young man? Shame. Shame! May you be tied atop a geyser hole.

Anyway, I'm trying to picture the glyphs as you describe them, and what comes closest (at least as I see it) is this:

Or at least some variation of it. By your description, the glyphs preceding the first cartouche ("lower half of a disc - large...3 vertical squat bars and the upper half of a disc") could well be the royal epithet "Lord of Appearances" (see glyphs immediately in front of the left cartouche in this image, behind the duck and sun disk). The cartouche in my graphic above, if it's the one you're seeing too, says "Seti, Beloved of Ptah.

The glyphs preceding the second cartouche spell the epithet "Lord of the Two Lands" (see at center in this image). The cartouche says "Menmaatre" ("Established is the Truth of Re").

"Seti, Beloved of Ptah" is the nomen (birth name) of Seti I, who reigned early in Dynasty 19. His prenomen (throne name) was Menmaatre. He was one of the greatest pharaohs of the New Kingdom and the father of Ramesses II.

This is going off your description. I hope it helps.

As for the objects the statue clutches in each hand, no one knows for sure what they're meant to be. Some argue they're little papyrus-scroll cases while others say they just fill negative space so that the delicate hands won't cave in on themselves. I think they're light sabers.

Thanks. I thought the whole image might be a more well known one . There is no 'Seth' that I can see, although maybe the name relates - without any 'Seth like'. head evident . A green 'Osirian' figure and a Maat' figure are the only two 'Gods' (?) in the cartouches .

I have read up a bit on Seti . A very interesting one !

The only camera I have is in crappy old mobile phone and my laptop is a similar standard ( ,,, and I have to produce my own electricity to charge those ) ... I tried to join the two ... so sorry about that, it would make it a lot easier.

I guess if I want to try to narrow it down I will have to scan images and hope for luck (or get someone else to take the picture ! )

(Looks out the many windows into the rainforest .... Now, where am I going to find 'someone else' ? )

[back to earth]

I believe that's 'mes' (F31)

Possibly the Tet knot?

Alternative for the 'M' sound?

[kmt_sesh]

I went back and read your description more carefully this time and...frankly, I'm at a loss. I do agree with some of Kenemet's conclusions.

You might refer to this page to see a full listing and representation of the most common hieroglyphs (from Gardiner's sign list). Then, you could post an image of the glyph if you find it. For example, I agree with Kenemet's identification of the tyet knot for your description "Line 2 - 2 feathers : a 'stick figure' in a dress (looks like an elongated bell with a circle on top and long 'arms' by its sides ) :" The tyet is glyph V39 in Gardiner's list, under the category of "Rope, fiber, baskets, bags, etc." It looks like this:

I also agree with F31 (three fox pelts tied together) for your description "a bundle of ? tied in the middle with 3 bands." It's in the category "Parts of mammals" and looks like this:

Your description "LIne 1. circle with a smaller one inside" is clearly the sun disk ("Sky, earth, water," glyph N5) and your description "3 - a thick horizontal bar with 6 small vertical ones attached to its top edge" reminds me of the game board in "Writing, games, music," which is glyph Y5:

I might be identifying it wrong, but that's what it strikes me as. It doesn't necessarily matter how many vertical pegs appear along the top edge.

I'm curious: Did I at least get Menmaatre right? It's the lower cartouche in the pair I posted yesterday. Your description of the glyphs sure in the hell sound like it.

Are you familiar with how to determine the direction for reading glyphs? That's also critical. I'm having a hard time picturing the order of glyphs by your description alone. You always read into glyphs that are alive (or even parts of living objects). And you always read from top to bottom. So for example, in the top cartouche image I posted yesterday, the Set figure and even the reed leaves face the left, so you read from left to right in this example. First is the square, then the glyph below it (the little half-circle, a bread loaf), then Set, then the pair of reed leaves, et cetera. This could be very helpful in our determining what you're seeing on your end.

Given that it's a tourist item, even a high-quality one by the sound of it, you must also be prepared for the possibility that it actually says nothing. Or mostly nothing. That is the way of most Egyptian tourist objects. I don't know, though, because I'm pretty confident about my identification of Lord of Appearances and Lord of the Two Lands.

Mostly you just have me really curious now, dammit!

That emoticon describes my existence!

[back to earth]

I went back and read your description more carefully this time and...frankly, I'm at a loss. I do agree with some of Kenemet's conclusions.

You might refer to this page to see a full listing and representation of the most common hieroglyphs (from Gardiner's sign list). Then, you could post an image of the glyph if you find it.

Okay, thanks, I will look through them later and try to post any I find that remain unclear after this.

For example, I agree with Kenemet's identification of the tyet knot for your description "Line 2 - 2 feathers : a 'stick figure' in a dress (looks like an elongated bell with a circle on top and long 'arms' by its sides ) :" The tyet is glyph V39 in Gardiner's list, under the category of "Rope, fiber, baskets, bags, etc." It looks like this:

Yes, that is close but , any one who ended up with what I have here, from copying that was very off (considering the detail on the rest of it ) the head and hanging down arms are thin single lines, the body is longer and fuller, like an elongated bell or angel's trumpet flower. The bands across are not at the join of the head and arms but below on the bell, the base is wider and flared and has a thick dark line across it and extending a bit out from the base of the bell. There is no suggestion of folded or tied cord in this at all as there is in the tyet, it is all thin single lines with he body of the 'bell' coloured in. There is no central lower vertical line dividing the 'legs' .

I also agree with F31 (three fox pelts tied together) for your description "a bundle of ? tied in the middle with 3 bands." It's in the category "Parts of mammals" and looks like this:

No , nothing like that. It looks like a rolled and tied hide or parchment .... tied 'bundle' ? ( white, vertical ,' tied' in the middle with 2 yellow bands, narrower in the middle, flared at both ends with lines suggesting creases or folds )

and underneath it; the top half of a small disc.

Your description "LIne 1. circle with a smaller one inside" is clearly the sun disk ("Sky, earth, water," glyph N5) and your description "3 - a thick horizontal bar with 6 small vertical ones attached to its top edge" reminds me of the game board in "Writing, games, music," which is glyph Y5:

https://en.wikipedia...mg/hiero_Y5.png

Yes, thats it.

I might be identifying it wrong, but that's what it strikes me as. It doesn't necessarily matter how many vertical pegs appear along the top edge.

I'm curious: Did I at least get Menmaatre right? It's the lower cartouche in the pair I posted yesterday. Your description of the glyphs sure in the hell sound like it.

Yes. But Maat has the was sceptre. So that is ( from top to bottom ) ; Sun disk : Maat with was ( facing right ... and looking at - on the same line next to her ) : V28 : with 4 small vertical lines under it ( squints , that appear to be coloured brown between the upper and lower 2 and green between the middle two) :

beneath this Y5

and beneath this the shallow lower half disc.

(As I am writing this I am imagining I am a small skinny , first day volunteer 'student' down a deep hole in a tomb and I am calling up to you, outside in the desert sun, scribbling on a pad and tearing your hair out )

Are you familiar with how to determine the direction for reading glyphs? That's also critical. I'm having a hard time picturing the order of glyphs by your description alone. You always read into glyphs that are alive (or even parts of living objects).

No I am not. But that is interesting info. all figures in the cartouches and the whole scene are facing to the right , so the lines would be read, as I wrote in first description, from right to left ...

And you always read from top to bottom.

and top to bottom

So for example, in the top cartouche image I posted yesterday, the Set figure and even the reed leaves face the left, so you read from left to right in this example. First is the square, then the glyph below it (the little half-circle, a bread loaf), then Set, then the pair of reed leaves, et cetera. This could be very helpful in our determining what you're seeing on your end.

Given that it's a tourist item, even a high-quality one by the sound of it, you must also be prepared for the possibility that it actually says nothing. Or mostly nothing. That is the way of most Egyptian tourist objects.

Yes. Or it is a copy of something ( which is why I hoped the whole scene might be familiar) and the copyist did a bad job . But they are done well here , especially the small seated gods , the feathers , V28 , the 'tied bundle' looks like 'tied bundle ( but nothing like Y1 or Y2 ... or V section, or any section ) ... did they have bon-bons ? and if the 'bell' is a knot ....

I don't know, though, because I'm pretty confident about my identification of Lord of Appearances and Lord of the Two Lands.

To me your 2nd cartouche looks the same as this one except this one has more;

SUN

Maat seated facing right ( with was sceptre) : in front of her on same line V28 above 4 short vertical lines on top of each other

below all of this Y5

below this V30.

Mostly you just have me really curious now, dammit!

That emoticon describes my existence!

Well ... she seemed to be asking me questions about hieroglyphics

well, I looked through those lists ... noting stood out, not even in Aa

It appears the right cartouche has mostly known elements but the left has 2 unknowns.

seated god (facing > ) was sceptre , hedjet crown (cant find him in C section but A43 ... but mine has was sceptre ) : V28 : tied bundle ? ( white, vertical ,' tied'in the middle with 2 yellow bands, narrower in the middle, flared at both ends with lines suggesting creases or folds ) and underneath it the top half of a small disc.

under this on the next line two feathers and the ' bell' or weird version of V39

Under this the 'coffer' (although different to Q6 )

Under this N35

under this V30

I am looking for someone to photo and post on line for me .

Edited June 27, 2015 by back to earth

[robinrenee]

Thanks. I thought the whole image might be a more well known one . There is no 'Seth' that I can see, although maybe the name relates - without any 'Seth like'. head evident . A green 'Osirian' figure and a Maat' figure are the only two 'Gods' (?) in the cartouches .

I have read up a bit on Seti . A very interesting one !

The only camera I have is in crappy old mobile phone and my laptop is a similar standard ( ,,, and I have to produce my own electricity to charge those ) ... I tried to join the two ... so sorry about that, it would make it a lot easier.

I guess if I want to try to narrow it down I will have to scan images and hope for luck (or get someone else to take the picture ! )

(Looks out the many windows into the rainforest .... Now, where am I going to find 'someone else' ? )

Sounds wonderful! .. would love to see a picture...

[back to earth]

A friend said she can try and photo and post the pic here on Wednesday

Edited June 29, 2015 by back to earth

[back to earth]

Okay .... fingers crossed :

How frustrating ! I am looking right at the photo on my screen and ... nothing here !

<file to big too load >

[back to earth]

[back to earth]

[robinrenee]

Oh my gosh! I love it! It looks like tapestry. It is beautiful!

[Kenemet]

Looking it up (or trying to) -- I think the first sign on the lefthand cartouche is NOT a sound, but rather is shorthand for "the Osiris" (meaning it's the name of a king that was dead.) I think the right-hand one MIGHT be "Min-maat-re" and then "lord of something or another." Maybe. The title over the right-hand cartouche DOES read "Lord of the two lands" (Neb Tawy)

This site is a collection of ALL the names of the pharaohs (and I do mean all) in hieroglyphs. Working through it: https://pharaoh.se/pharaohs

Edited June 30, 2015 by Kenemet

[Kenemet]

Hmmf. I got nuffin. Time to get out my Collier and Manley.

I do like it because it's NOT Ramesses II or Tutankahmun. I get tired of those names.

[kmt_sesh]

All right, I've tracked it down. Thanks for posting the images, back to earth, because without them I don't think I could've arrived at a conclusion. And I'm pretty confident with my conclusion.

The cartouches are a slightly "touristized" representation of the birth name (left in your photo) and throne name (right) of Seti I. My original assessment seems to have been correct, but I didn't fully understand it until I saw the photo. It's the birth name that's quite tricky. Here is a photo of the actual cartouche, at Seti I's temple at Abydos:

I remember from my studies that in some cases Seti I's name was deliberately spelled without the Set character, to avoid flirtation with chaos. This is so at Seti's Abydos temple, which was actually completed by his son Ramesses II after Seti had died. It was Ramesses who spelled his father's name this way at Abydos.

The way the name is spelled is a good example of enigmatic writing in hieroglyphs. It reads from right to left, top to bottom. The very first glyph is a badly distorted square (p), then the bread loaf below it (t), and the candle wick behind it (h). This is the name of the god Ptah. The squatting figure behind these is Osiris. Below and to the right, the bell-shaped glyph is in fact the tyet, so Kenemet guessed it correctly from the start. Behind it are two reed leaves (a y sound). Below is a canal, which is the sound value mr. Below that is a water ripple, an n sound, serving as a genitive ("of"). At the very bottom is a basket, which in this case serves no actual purpose and is part of the "touristized" effect (note that it doesn't appear in the original stone cutting, above).

In this cartouche the name of the god Set (stw or stX in ancient Egyptian) is spelled both enigmatically and phonetically. The figure of Osiris at top represents an s sound. The tyet represents a t sound. The reed leaves represent their standard y sound. So this is how Set is spelled here (and hence the king's name, Seti, which means "One of Set").. The canal and water ripple go together with the name Ptah up top to spell mr(y) n ptH, "beloved of Ptah."

The cartouche at right (throne name) also reads right to left and top to bottom, and is straight forward. The sun disk up top is Re, the squatting figure is Maat (who usually clasps an ankh symbol, not a was scepter), and the game board below is the mn sound. The candle wick and square in front of Maat do not actually belong in this cartouche, nor does the basket at the very bottom. This spells the throne name Menmaatre.

Above the left cartouche is Lord of Appearances and above the right, Lord of the Two Lands.

So there is a lot of reality to this piece, and some tourist effect. But it's a lovely piece, back to earth, and, dare I say it at my age—very cool. You don't usually see Seti I's name in its enigmatic spelling.

[kmt_sesh]

Postscript: I know I feel better now. Don't you?

[Kenemet]

Postscript: I know I feel better now. Don't you?

I do, and kudos to your ability to recognize the hieroglyphs! I did dither over Seti, but didn't have the experience to recognize it. I got the "Minmaatre" but the other signs in the cartouche confused me and I didn't settle on that.

Bravo!

...and it IS a lovely piece!

[back to earth]

Yous guys is awesome

Thanks for the extensive explanations. I am quiet happy it is Seti I , now I will read up more on him. Yep, feel good about him at the end of my bed.

I have always been curious of the name , considering the 'Gods' 'reputation' .

How interesting that " Seti I's name was deliberately spelled without the Set character, to avoid flirtation with chaos. " yet the King was named after him ( or took his name ... or was given his name ... or because ... ? ) , I suppose they would have addressed him and referred to him by his various other titles ? But still, it would have been known , I wonder what hiscourt and subjects thought of him having such a name ?

Thanks once again folks .

[Kenemet]

Set (or Seth, if you like... I prefer Set because it looks less Hebrew) is a fascinating deity. He's portrayed as an interloper and usurper; it's thought that this may actually reflect some early political conflicts. In early dynasties, his name was found along with Horus on the king's serekh.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_%28Deity%29

In the Middle and New Kingdoms, some of the military units were named for Set. The true demonization of him does not begin until the Late and Ptolemaic periods (and possibly under the influence of Christianity, where he could be equated with the devil.)

[kmt_sesh]

The god Set is somewhat ambivalent in ancient Egypt. I think we can trace his "bad guy" status earlier than the Late Period, but it would be a misconception to portray him as a god of evil and the like (as some writers do). I would place the start of his decline in the Hyksos period. The chief storm god of Canaan was Baal, and Set was something of a storm god (that of the desert), so the Hyksos were fond of him. So for poor Set it was guilt by association—the Egyptians hated the Hyksos, and Set was one of their favored deities.

But it would be inaccurate to say Set was a hated god, or even unpopular following the Hyksos period. He could be either positive or negative. The affinity for the god Set shown by the early Ramesside monarchs is one hint that this line of kings probably originated in the Delta. Set appears on many monuments and is often included in lineages of deities, so it doesn't seem the Egyptians necessarily feared him. They just took care in how they approached their relationship with Set.

One obvious sign of Set's continued importance is his common portrayal on the prow of Re's boat as it journeys through the netherworld:

Set is seen attacking and spearing the serpent Apep (Apophis), who was a much greater danger to mankind than Set. In this guise Set was a lieutenant of Re.

Editing to add: Kenemet mentioned military units. I am not as familiar with the military of the Middle Kingdom, which was for the most part comprised of militias raised by the governors or nomarchs. It wasn't until the New Kingdom that Egypt developed a professional standing army. When Ramesses II attacked Kadesh early in his reign (c. 1274 BCE) he was at the front of four armies or divisions, each named for a god. They were called Amun, Re, Ptah, and Set.

Edited July 3, 2015 by kmt_sesh