83 replies to this topic

[bom shankra]

I am interested to hear opinions about this guy... He is a supposedly a specialist in ancient measures. he is apparently quite learned, but at the same time seems to be out on a limb in certain respects. is he another stichin? i'm just interested to know if anyone else has had a close encounter with this guy?

edit: bad spelling

Edited by shanka boom, 22 March 2012 - 10:17 AM.

[The_Spartan]

shanka boom, on 22 March 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I am interested to hear opinions about this guy... He is a supposedly a specialist in ancient measures. he is apparently quite learned, but at the same time seems to be out on a limb in certain respects. is he another stichin? i'm just interested to know if anyone else has had a close encounter with this guy?

edit: bad spelling

he did a stupid thing - he believed that what Velikovsky spouted was the absolute truth.

[Simbi Laveau]

shanka boom, on 22 March 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I am interested to hear opinions about this guy... He is a supposedly a specialist in ancient measures. he is apparently quite learned, but at the same time seems to be out on a limb in certain respects. is he another stichin? i'm just interested to know if anyone else has had a close encounter with this guy?

edit: bad spelling

I think his ancient measures studies are quite interesting.
His stuff is very complex ,so i don't understand it all,but its definately facinating.

Edited by missymoo999, 22 March 2012 - 06:58 PM.

[danydandan]

some of his "proofs" where just based on assumptions. But who is to say these asumptions are wrong or right . So I really cant comment.

[bom shankra]

danydandan, on 23 March 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

some of his "proofs" where just based on assumptions. But who is to say these asumptions are wrong or right . So I really cant comment.

well i'll try break one of his proofs down ; he says agrathachides a greek grammarian from 2nd centuary BCE was the original source of the report that twice the perimiter of the base of the great pyramid is 5 stadia, that is 1/2 a minute of a degree of lattitude. 1 minute of a degree taken at the equator a cursory search turns up a modern figure of about 1842.65m, and the pyramids perimeter * 2, based on coles survey is 1842.78m, so that is close(stecchini uses the mean of the side *8 to get 1842.9m, and quotes 1842.92m as modern estimates - closer than mine, because he uses the estimate from the International Spheroid)

Agratha~, he also tells us, reported the mid line from the base to the apex represents 1 stadium, that is 1/10th of a minute of lattitude.
He claims agratha~ uses the particular word stadia (stecchini says 1 stadium = 600 geographic feet, 10 stadia = 1 minute of degree therfore 600 stadia = 1 degree) The length of a degree of lattitude gets longer to the pole, and is about 20m longer than at the equator.stecchini believes the pyramid would have had a pyramidion that was graduated to represent the varying lengths at all the lattitudes up to the north pole, anyway, again coles figures come to something close to modern estimates of length of a degree of lattitude at pole.
my googlke search gave me 1861m at pole, coles survey of the G.P. produces a mean length of 186.5m (186.5*10=1865) by my reckoning (although I don't think coles data is as reliable for hieght as it is for the base perimeter).

makes you wonder...

Edited by shanka boom, 24 March 2012 - 12:05 PM.

[bom shankra]

i'd happily take as coincidence the scaled geographical degree hypothesis, but the 'coincidence'  is corroborated by authors from ancient greece, in as much as the perimeter of th GP is 1/2 a minute of geographic degree, and the apothem 1 stadium (or 1/10 a minute of degree according to stechinni)
also the fact that the figure derived from perimeter *2 is less than 1/20000th part in error of the modern figure is seriously intruiging. we had Eratosthenes   276BC-195BC figuring the circumferance of the earth at the equator to be 40 000 to 45 000km (true fig about 40 027km), but this was only achieved by his various errors cancelling out, and as Stecchini aludes to, this is most likely a case of Eratosthenes, being head of the library of alexandria, read the information, and then passed his calculations off as his own endeavour. So much as to say how much more startling is the possible fact that two and a half millenium earlier than this the knowledge existed, and to a degree of precision that makes the Ancint Greeks look primitive, and was incorporated in the worlds biggest oldest structure.

I have cut and pasted this from wiki, relating to Jomards(napoleons savant) concepts regarding this matter:-

"Mouton may or may not have known that The Milos was based on a stadion equivalent to the Egyptian minute of march. Sir Issac Newton who attempted to restablish the measures of the ancient world from the math problems in Kings 1 may not have known that But its certain that Jomard, one of the French savants accompanying Napoleon to Egypt entrusted with the measurement of ancient architecture to attempt to restablish the correct value of ancient measures by measurement knew that because he cites the Greeks who knew that "In 1798, Edme-Francois Jomard visited the Great Pyramid as a young savant on Napoleon's expedition. The French had the debris cleared away from the two northern corners of the Pyramid and discovered the corner sockets where the corner casing stones had apparently originally been placed. These were ten by twelve foot mortises, perfectly level, and perfectly level with each other, cut twenty inches into the limestone bedrock. Although, there were still piles of rubble between them, Jomard was able to measure the north side of the base to be 230.902 meters (757.5 feet). For the height, he measured each step. They added up to a total of 144 meters (481 feet). By means of trigonometry Jomard calculated a slope of 51* 19' 14", and an apothem of 184.722 meters. Because the casing stones were missing, these figures were both estimates, but the length of the apothem looked virtually perfect in light of various ancient classical texts which Jomard was familiar with." Diodorus Siculus and Strabo both claimed that the apothem of the Great Pyramid was one stadium long. The Olympic stadium was 600 Greek feet, and was supposed to be related to the size of the earth. Jomard found the stadium of Eratosthenes and Hipparchus to be 185.5 meters, and thus within one meter of his figure for the apothem. He also found that distances quoted by the ancients in stadia matched the distances found by Napoleon's surveyors, if a stadium was taken to be 185 meters. The ancient stadium was also reported to have been 1/600 of a degree. When Jomard took the length of a degree at what he believed to be the mean latitude of Egypt, 110,827.68 meters, and divided it by 600, he arrived at a stadium of 184.712 meters, which was within ten centimeters of his figure for the length of the apothem! In addition, several Greek authors had reported that the perimeter of the base was equal to half a minute of a degree. This would mean that a degree of latitude divided by 480 should equal the length of one side of the base. Again Jomard used the length of a degree at his mean latitude of Egypt, 110,827 meters, and dividing by 480 arrived at 230.8 meters, again within 10 centimeters of his measured base."

not sure where the figure of 110,827 meters for mean lattitude of egypt came from, it would have been the best data at that time, however its a bit too long, as was his determination of the length of side of the G.P., but he was not far away from what stechinni is stating.

[bom shankra]

just under 10 months since the above post, permit me if I may to make an edit regarding the figures previously quoted.

shanka boom, on 24 March 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

well I'll try break one of his proofs down ; he says agatharchides, a Greek grammarian from 2nd centaury BCE was the original source of the report that twice the perimeter of the base of the great pyramid is 5 stadia, that is 1/2 a minute of a degree of latitude. 1 minute of a degree taken at the equator a cursory search turns up a modern figure of about 1842.65m, and the pyramids perimeter * 2, based on Coles survey is 1842.78m, so that is close(Stecchini uses the mean of the side *8 to get 1842.9m, and quotes 1842.92m as modern estimates - closer than mine, because he uses the estimate from the International Spheroid)

The data Cole gives from his 1920's Egyptian government survey is a mean side length of 230.364m, which gives a figure of 1842.912m for perimeter * 2


Google gives a figure of 110.574KM as representing a degree of latitude at the equator (110.574/60 = 1 minute of a degree, which divided by 60 to give minutes equals 1842.9m, that's a deviation of 1.5mm ( or 1 part in 153 575) in side length from the perfect dimension to represent 1/8th minute of degree of latitude.



I've invited a special guest ( a self professed expert in the field) to discuss this with me here on the forum, but I'm not sure they will ordain to take part.


My real issue with the concept is the element represented by Agarthachides, who apparently refers to the perimeter in stadia, it's from this that we are to understand that he is talking about a geographical measure. I'm not sure how well this holds up, hence the question "is he genius or pseudo nut?" The inference is that stadia, or stadium consists of 600 geographical feet, and was the unit commonly used by the ancients in calculating geographical distances.


Leaving Agatharchides aside one moment, the facts presented ought to have some merit on their own. We have a distance for the perimeter which is from the most accurate survey available (J. H. Coles. 'Determination of the exact size and orientation of the Great Pyramid at giza'), and we have modern satellite data for a degree of latitude taken at 0 degrees (the equator), and by taking the hint from these ancient Greeks, and multiplying the perimeter by two to obtain 1 minute, then by 60 to get a degree, we arrive at a figure that is correct to a factor of 1 part in approx 150 000.


Now if we could elucidate this business of stadiums and geographical feet a little more, we might be able to distinguish whether we have merely a coincidence, or proof of a science that was hitherto unrealized by our modern age. Previously as the reader may already be aware, Eratosthenes is credited with determining the circumference of the Earth circa 2BC, but his documented method is apparently flawed, and we can only derive a ball park figure of possibly up to 10 000 km too large.


(Please don't be misled by this comparison, the degree of latitude at the equator is not 1/360th of the circumference of the earth. It is an all together more complex piece of data that takes into account the flattening of the earth at the poles. If we try to multiply out by this method we get a figure of 39800Km, so be clear that this was not what Stecchini was referring to.)

Edited by shanka boom, 12 February 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[Archimedes]

Out of curiosity, did the Egyptians who built the pyramids at Giza use degrees, minutes, second, etc. to  measure the world?

It's an arbitrary system and there's nothing special about those distances. A degree of longitude or a minute of longitude isn't anything natural or special any more than miles or kilometeres mean anything in nature.  They're just arbitrary man made units for measuring things.

[bom shankra]

yes, but the ratios are exact and rounded.  the perimeter * 2 = 1/60th minute of degree of latitude.

The modern meter has its origins in napoleonic france, an was 1/10 000 000th part the distace from equator to pole.

the ratio of Pi and Phi and the golden section are also evident in the proprtions of base to height.

[bom shankra]

... so if the dimensions were 10 cm longer etc, you wouldn't have any relationship.

Obviously there would be other scales that could have worked as well, but they will be discreet ones, and would not be too abudant (I think I could demonstrate if you wished).

[bom shankra]

Archimedes, on 12 February 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, did the Egyptians who built the pyramids at Giza use degrees, minutes, second, etc. to  measure the world?

It's an arbitrary system and there's nothing special about those distances. A degree of longitude or a minute of longitude isn't anything natural or special any more than miles or kilometeres mean anything in nature.  They're just arbitrary man made units for measuring things.

hi Archy~ sorry for the teporary lapse of significant information in the immediate response to your Q to me, I didn't want this topic to die staight away again like it did ten months ago, I was hoping it would be discussed by some of the regular contributors to Egytology / Pyramid threads like cormac, diechecker, third eye, hell, even Kemet possibly, oh and not forgeting cladking (apologies for leaving out any notoratti, but you catch my drift ladies and gents.) mainly because I see so much talk about the use of ramps etc. in the G.P., and thought an intruiging subject like this could inject a bit of life into what is after all one of the greatest mysterys on the planet / known to man.  I say this because there could be another dozen subjects relating to the G.P. that to my knowledge never get discussed here on U.M.

e.g.1 - the precision of the subteranean passage, straight to 1/4 inch along its whole length according to Petrie (BTW, did you guys ever read Wiki page on Petrie... he was a far right supporter of Eugenics), carved by one worker at a time (3ft squre passage is a bit tight)

e.g.2 - what about the explanation for the well shaft...carved through 200(?) feet of solid masonry, but meeting up at lower and upper ends - why is it there? if it was there originally, why is it carved? if it was done later, how does it manage to forge through the masonry, but still hit its target, why plug the whole length of the acending passage with 3 blocks of granite and numerous limestone ones if there was a gaping hole left open by way of the well shaft?

e.g.3 - limestone casing - 30ft blocks that fit together without space hardly to insert a razor.

e.g.4 - granite ceiling of kings chamber - are we absolutely sure it was a design simply to resist the weight of the over head masonry? don't the gables do most of the job in that regard?

e.g.5 - what were the air shafts for? (talk about inertia, is it 9, or 11 years between each succesive exploration?)

e.g.6 - not even going to start about diorite pouders and copper chisels for carving granite, (core drills and sand, ok, but the granite coffer alone would have taken as long as the pyramid itself  to produce by that method, and thats just one of the granite artifacts, there are acres of granite (  yes I know the A.E.'s had time and man power, but still, the granite working team must have made up half the workforce at giza.) Enough to say the A.E. were masters of hard stone working, but do we fully understand there methods?....but now I really am digressing!

looking for evidence the Ancients used Degrees ets, well here it is, look up to the skies, and find those constellationms that the ancients were so enamoured with...

Didn't worship of the bull give way to worship of the ram,  Are there not celestial maps carved into the ceilings of temples such as the temple of Hathor at Dendera?

So how many houses in the Zodiac? - 12

how many degrees do the sighns of the zodiac cover? - 30

Where was the G.P. built in terms of latitude? 30 deg

how far, and to where does the land of ancient southern egypt extend? 6 degrees, and falls on the tropic of cancer. (the delimiting band of the ecliptic)

so theres your sexagecimal sytem in evidence back in the days of the 4th Dynasty;

I only hope this will go a little way to avoid  dismissing  out of hand the theory of Stecchins as presented above.

BTW, Am I missing somethingt here, I can't find spell check anywhere?????????  

[Harte]

Archimedes, on 12 February 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

Out of curiosity, did the Egyptians who built the pyramids at Giza use degrees, minutes, second, etc. to measure the world?

It's an arbitrary system and there's nothing special about those distances. A degree of longitude or a minute of longitude isn't anything natural or special any more than miles or kilometeres mean anything in nature. They're just arbitrary man made units for measuring things.

No, they did not. They didn't use them for telling time either.

shanka boom, on 12 February 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

yes, but the ratios are exact and rounded.  the perimeter * 2 = 1/60th minute of degree of latitude.

The modern meter has its origins in napoleonic france, an was 1/10 000 000th part the distace from equator to pole.

the ratio of Pi and Phi and the golden section are also evident in the proprtions of base to height.

The Egyptians were well acquainted with the Golden Rectangle, which includes the term Phi you refer to, but the didn't know the irrational number itself, nor any other irrational number, including pi.  The golden rectangle can be constructed using a compass and straightedge.

The value for pi that fringies claim is "encoded" into the GP is actually 22/7, which is arrived at by the fringe through manipulations of the slope of the pyramid itself, which the Egyptians constructed as 22 fingers horizontally for each cubit going up (22 fingers "in" for each cubit "up" with one cubit equal to 28 fingers.)

When you do the arithmetical manipulation the fringe insists on, you arrive at the ratio 88/28, or 22/7.  This number is close to pi, but the Egyptians at that time had no idea of this, they were using the whole number 3 for the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter.

The actual number one can arrive at using the fringe's calculations is more than ten times closer to 22/7 than it is to pi.

shanka boom, on 16 February 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

looking for evidence the Ancients used Degrees ets, well here it is, look up to the skies, and find those constellationms that the ancients were so enamoured with...

Didn't worship of the bull give way to worship of the ram, Are there not celestial maps carved into the ceilings of temples such as the temple of Hathor at Dendera?

So how many houses in the Zodiac? - 12

how many degrees do the sighns of the zodiac cover? - 30

Where was the G.P. built in terms of latitude? 30 deg

The zodiac you refer to was put there by Greek conquerors in the Ptolemaic period.  The Egyptians never knew any zodiac, and they had no known method for measuring  the arc of the sky, other than the angle-measuring method I mentioned above.

Harte

[bom shankra]

Archimedes, on 12 February 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

A degree of longitude or a minute of longitude isn't anything natural or special any more than miles or kilometeres mean anything in nature.

Ah, but a  kilometer isn't arbitary, its  based on something natural, it's based on what were talking about with stecchini, specifically the distance from equator to pole.
and the greek foot .308m * 360 * 360 000 comes to a pretty good aproximation of the circumferance of the world.

They are anything but arbitary.

Harte, on 17 February 2013 - 05:47 AM, said:

The Egyptians were well acquainted with the Golden Rectangle, which includes the term Phi you refer to, but the didn't know the irrational number itself, nor any other irrational number, including pi.  The golden rectangle can be constructed using a compass and straightedge.

The value for pi that fringies claim is "encoded" into the GP is actually 22/7, which is arrived at by the fringe through manipulations of the slope of the pyramid itself, which the Egyptians constructed as 22 fingers horizontally for each cubit going up (22 fingers "in" for each cubit "up" with one cubit equal to 28 fingers.)

I have aimed at elucidating the theory of stecchini in the interest of having a frank discussion, and though 22/7 was an approximation as you say, it has nothing to do with where I personally started out...

Herodotus supposedly (I have been reading but haven't pin pointed where yet) provides us with the colaboration that the slope of the meidian triangle is in the proportion of phi (apothem divided by half the base), and stecchin develops on this by suggesting a triangle of 480 feet * 377 feet *610 feet gives very accurate values for phi (610/377 = 1.6180371), and also pi (377/480 *4 = 3.14166). note however that it is not possible to make a right angle triangle from these exact numbers, so he goes on to suggest that two possible meridian sections should be considered...1 based on phi, the other pi.  However, there is a point to be made here about the pyramidion.  Stecchin states that Agatharchides deliberately leaves it out of the equation, so instead of the 610 ft for the apothem we have 600ft, and instead of half the base of 375, we have 371ft (this assumes a side length of the pyramidion of approx 9ft - half of which is 4.5ft), so now we have right angle triangles that are presented as follows:

based on phi, apothem = 600.1ft,  base 370.9, and height 471.8 (this gives 1/phi, or 0.618063)

and based on pi = 599.9ft, 370.6, and again 471.8 ( pi = 3.142009)

so in other words what hes suggesting is two faces are calculated by Phi, and the other two by Pi.

There is alot more to examine regarding stecchini, and since I first read his published theory in Peter Tompkins "secrets of the pyramids" a year ago, I have been hard pressed to find a fatal flaw in his logic, however, it doesn't yield freely to understanding. Should it be ditched in that case? fringe rantings?  I'd say harte, that you made your mind up aboout that before I even started the thread.

I'm aware the temple at dendera is of the Ptolemaic period, and have to concede it wasn't an ideal way to illustrate my point. I will pick this up at a later stage perhaps, but for now I will say there is some conjecture about it being rebuilt several times going back to the early dynasties, and that the actual zodiac is actually a calender going back to remote antiquity.

isn't it possible that the ancients recognizing the equinox and the solstice, could have had the capacity and coherence, the deductive insight, to have created a science based on the heavens and the natural world, and to have known instinctively the mechanics of the cosmos.  The ancients brain was exactly the same size as modern mans.  Is it not bordering on conciet to deny our for fathers this?

[Harte]

bom shankra, on 18 February 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

I have aimed at elucidating the theory of stecchini in the interest of having a frank discussion, and though 22/7 was an approximation as you say, it has nothing to do with where I personally started out...

I realize you didn't start out with that.

However, I explained to you not only the proportion used by the Ancient Egyptians to build the pyramid, but also their method of measuring angles.

The pyramid next door, Kephren's, was built using the proportion 21:1 (21 fingers "in" to 1 cubit - 28 fingers - up.)

Manipulation of the same measurements used by the fringe on the Great Pyramid yeilds almost exactly 3 on Kephren's pyramid for exactly the same reasons:
21: 28 when manipulated leads to the ratio 84:28.  84/28 = 3.

bom shankra, on 18 February 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

Herodotus supposedly (I have been reading but haven't pin pointed where yet) provides us with the colaboration that the slope of the meidian triangle is in the proportion of phi (apothem divided by half the base), and stecchin develops on this by suggesting a triangle of 480 feet * 377 feet *610 feet gives very accurate values for phi (610/377 = 1.6180371), and also pi (377/480 *4 = 3.14166). note however that it is not possible to make a right angle triangle from these exact numbers, so he goes on to suggest that two possible meridian sections should be considered...1 based on phi, the other pi.  However, there is a point to be made here about the pyramidion.  Stecchin states that Agatharchides deliberately leaves it out of the equation, so instead of the 610 ft for the apothem we have 600ft, and instead of half the base of 375, we have 371ft (this assumes a side length of the pyramidion of approx 9ft - half of which is 4.5ft), so now we have right angle triangles that are presented as follows:

based on phi, apothem = 600.1ft,  base 370.9, and height 471.8 (this gives 1/phi, or 0.618063)

and based on pi = 599.9ft, 370.6, and again 471.8 ( pi = 3.142009)

so in other words what hes suggesting is two faces are calculated by Phi, and the other two by Pi.

You can play with numbers all day long but in the end, the fact is that the GP was constructed with a slope of 22 fingers "in" for each cubit up, with the cubit (again) equal to 28 fingers. And it is this ratio that is manipulated using unexplained methods to arrive at pi and phi.

Exact proportions like these (whole number fingers per cubit) can be found on every pyramid built by the Ancient Egyptians.  Every single one.

bom shankra, on 18 February 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

There is alot more to examine regarding stecchini, and since I first read his published theory in Peter Tompkins "secrets of the pyramids" a year ago, I have been hard pressed to find a fatal flaw in his logic, however, it doesn't yield freely to understanding. Should it be ditched in that case? fringe rantings?  I'd say harte, that you made your mind up aboout that before I even started the thread.

It's true that I've made up my mind.  You have only rehashed some of the things I've looked at in the past.  Your posts on this are nothing new to me.
Was I supposed to remain undecided until you decided to post materials I've already considered in making up my mind?

My mind was made up upon examining the actual evidence that we actually have.  Not by deciding what could or couldn't have been.  I understand what you are trying to imply here and I assure you that in my case, I've thoroughly researched the facts of the matter and found the claims you mentioned here to be baseless.

What is so hard about the 22:28 ratio?  It leads to every number you claim, and it does not involve pi  or phi at all.

I told you the value the Egyptians used at the time for pi.  If they knew what pi was, why would they do this?

bom shankra, on 18 February 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:

isn't it possible that the ancients recognizing the equinox and the solstice, could have had the capacity and coherence, the deductive insight, to have created a science based on the heavens and the natural world, and to have known instinctively the mechanics of the cosmos.  The ancients brain was exactly the same size as modern mans.  Is it not bordering on conciet to deny our for fathers this?

There's no question that pretty much all ancient peoples, and likely Homo Erectus, recognized the equinox and solstices.  The Ancient Egyptians absolutely did.

What of it?  It takes no real knowledge to do this, nor any real technology to predict these dates.

Speculation that such observations "could have" led to some sort of science, a science that we have not a shred of evidence for, is a parlor game, not a logical discussion. It could be fun, but I'm not interested, given what I already know.

Harte

[third_eye]

The AEs might not know our pi but we sure as hell recognize their pi

and we all end up with four equal slices by both pi

that's a good enough pi in my pi book