95 replies to this topic

[JoSmith]

James Rose has been a long-term apologist for the angling industry. This is a review article only, offering opinion. There is a wealth of scientific research that makes it clear that fish do fish pain. For details on the real science see www.fishpain.com

[lightly]

pallidin, on 14 January 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Who cares? Fish are for eating anyway.

  to a flesh eating bacteria,  or possibly a great cat ,  so are you.       Do you care now?

[MrSerendipity]

Darkwind, on 14 January 2013 - 10:30 PM, said:

I really don't think we know enough about the brain to make the judgement call at this point of what they feel or not feel.

I think it might be a good assumption that all living things feel pain until we know for sure otherwise.

[AsteroidX]

I cant believe you guys are s ill debating this. Makes me want to stick a hook or club anyone that says fish dont feel pain to make a point (j/k). But really need I go research some videos to end this one.

[MrSerendipity]

Zaphod222, on 15 January 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

Whatever anglers do with fish, it is not any more cruel than what fish do to each other. Getting swallowed alive and then dissolved in stomach acid... how does that sound.

What fish do to each other is perfectly natural. What anglers do to fish is simply idle pleasure - sport!

[freetoroam]

MrSerendipity, on 15 January 2013 - 04:07 PM, said:

What fish do to each other is perfectly natural. What anglers do to fish is simply idle pleasure - sport!

Agree, but do also agree with those who catch fish to eat, thats part of natures way. Its the sport bit I do not agree with, but do not really want to carry on about that, it could be grounds for divorce for me.

[AsteroidX]

Thats called a food chain. Without it we are not able to use our brains efficiently. Are you aware of how much grass youd have to eat each day to run a human brain at minimal efficiency.  Ill just say you wouldnt be leaving the table except to use the crapper.

[MrSerendipity]

thebuster, on 15 January 2013 - 05:22 AM, said:

ive caught and released many fish without touching them at all. obviously you dont have a clue about anything youre talking about.

In my younger days I was a very keen angler indeed and I can tell you that It would be a rare occasion when a fish would be so lightly hooked that it wouldn't be necessary to handle it. What if a fish swallowed the hook would you not have to handle it then? Also, it doesn't have to be handling with human hands, a landing net has the same effect in that damage is caused to the fish's slime coat. In later years I developed an interest in keeping fish in aquaria, both cold water, (exotic goldfish), and tropical. I read everything I could get my hands on about the subject and when I started to learn just how sensitive fish are I gave up angling. I don't condemn angling as I found it to be a very enjoyable outdoor hobby. It's just that having learned all that I did about fish physiology I made a personal decision to stop catching them. Fish are highly susceptible to the stress that results from sudden changes in their environment eg., water temperature and water chemistry as well. Also snatching them from their natural surroundings into a totally alien environment with a hook in their mouths, unhooking them leaving them wounded, and returning them to the water with the inevitable damage to their slime coats which in itself leaves them vulnerable to infection. All of these stresses result in the temporary breakdown of their immune systems, (that is fact, not something that just came out of my head. It is fish-keepers'  basic knowledge), during which time they are open to attack from parasites and fish pathogens. You said, "ive caught and released many fish without touching them at all." You caught and released many fish without touching them? Well bully for you! From my own angling experience I find that to be incredible indeed! Anyway, handling them isn't the most harmful thing. Look back over my list of other fish stresses. You couldn't have avoided any of those! Also you said, "obviously you don't have a clue about anything you're talking about." I think anyone reading the above will easily conclude that I DO know what I'm talking about and that YOU are the one who doesn't!!

[MrSerendipity]

Big Jim, on 15 January 2013 - 05:36 AM, said:

There's no reason to think that they don't feel pain.  The same science that claims their nervous system is too primitive to feel pain has done experiments on lesser animals with pain as a negative stimulus.  The bait feels pain when stuck with the hook.  It starts writhing at the first touch of the point of the hook, long before it's trapped.  If something with the brain of a worm can feel pain then surely a fish can.  As a younger man I was an avid fisherman but I gave it up years ago because I could no longer justify causing pain in another creature merely for my own amusement.   I agree with the previous poster who keeps aquariums.  I kept fish for many years and they are more intelligent that we give them credit for.  Much can be explained by instinct but what do we call it when instinct adapts to non-natural situations?   It's quite clear to anyone familiar with animals, whether as pets or prey, that they are capable of thinking.  Sensing pain seems much more elemental than thought so I would think we'd have to go much farther down the food chain before finding a living creature that does not feel pain.

Very well said. I completely agree. Please see my recent post at 5.47pm.

I copied and pasted the following from Wikipedia as a matter of interest:

Experiments by William Tavolga provide evidence that fish have pain and fear responses. For instance, in Tavolga’s experiments, toadfish grunted when electrically shocked, and over time they came to grunt at the mere sight of an electrode.^[12] Additional tests conducted at the Roslin Institute and University of Edinburgh, in which bee venom and acetic acid was injected into the lips of rainbow trout, resulted in fish rubbing their lips along the sides and floors of their tanks, which the researchers believe was an effort to relieve themselves of pain.^[13] One researcher argues about the definition of pain used in the studies.^[14] Since this initial work Dr Lynne Sneddon and her lab have characterised pain in rainbow trout, common carp and zebrafish.^[15]

Goldfish

In a 2009 paper, Janicke Nordgreen from the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, Joseph Garner from Purdue University, and others, published research which concluded that goldfish do feel pain, and that their reactions to pain are much like those of humans.^[16] "There has been an effort by some to argue that a fish's response to a noxious stimulus is merely a reflexive action, but that it didn't really feel pain," Garner said. "We wanted to see if fish responded to potentially painful stimuli in a reflexive way or a more clever way."^[17] The fish were divided into two groups, one given morphine and the other saline. They were then subjected to unpleasant temperatures. The fish that were given saline subsequently acted with defensive behaviours, indicating anxiety, wariness and fear, whereas those given morphine did not.^[17] Nordgreen said that the behavioural differences they found showed that fish feel both reflexive and cognitive pain. "The experiment shows that fish do not only respond to painful stimuli with reflexes, but change their behavior also after the event," Nordgreen said. "Together with what we know from experiments carried out by other groups, this indicates that the fish consciously perceive the test situation as painful and switch to behaviors indicative of having been through an aversive experience."^[17]

[MrSerendipity]

Ashiene, on 15 January 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

Pain is an alarm system for self danger. If animals don't evolve to feel pain then they wouldn't know how much damage certain actions would do to their bodies. Pain helps in survival by avoiding things and activities that are destructive to the animal.

Agreed!

[MrSerendipity]

An interesting read from Wikipedia:
Experiments by William Tavolga provide evidence that fish have pain and fear responses. For instance, in Tavolga’s experiments, toadfish grunted when electrically shocked, and over time they came to grunt at the mere sight of an electrode.[12] Additional tests conducted at the Roslin Institute and University of Edinburgh, in which bee venom and acetic acid was injected into the lips of rainbow trout, resulted in fish rubbing their lips along the sides and floors of their tanks, which the researchers believe was an effort to relieve themselves of pain.[13] One researcher argues about the definition of pain used in the studies.[14] Since this initial work Dr Lynne Sneddon and her lab have characterised pain in rainbow trout, common carp and zebrafish.[15]
In a 2009 paper, Janicke Nordgreen from the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science, Joseph Garner from Purdue University, and others, published research which concluded that goldfish do feel pain, and that their reactions to pain are much like those of humans.[16] "There has been an effort by some to argue that a fish's response to a noxious stimulus is merely a reflexive action, but that it didn't really feel pain," Garner said. "We wanted to see if fish responded to potentially painful stimuli in a reflexive way or a more clever way."[17] The fish were divided into two groups, one given morphine and the other saline. They were then subjected to unpleasant temperatures. The fish that were given saline subsequently acted with defensive behaviours, indicating anxiety, wariness and fear, whereas those given morphine did not.[17] Nordgreen said that the behavioural differences they found showed that fish feel both reflexive and cognitive pain. "The experiment shows that fish do not only respond to painful stimuli with reflexes, but change their behavior also after the event," Nordgreen said. "Together with what we know from experiments carried out by other groups, this indicates that the fish consciously perceive the test situation as painful and switch to behaviors indicative of having been through an aversive experience."[17
]

[freetoroam]

"toadfish grunted when electrically shocked,"


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WHY?? why do humans even want to do this in the first place?

[redhen]

freetoroam, on 15 January 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

"toadfish grunted when electrically shocked,"
---------------------------------------------------------------
WHY?? why do humans even want to do this in the first place?

“He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom.”
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

[Sweetpumper]

freetoroam, on 15 January 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

as I have said i am not the angler, but my husband has said many anglers have medical kits specially for fish with damaged scales or damaged mouths.

What the hell?  I've never heard of nor seen that!  Do they slap a band-aid on the puncture wound caused by the hook?

[Sky Scanner]

Sweetpumper, on 15 January 2013 - 08:53 PM, said:

What the hell?  I've never heard of nor seen that!  Do they slap a band-aid on the puncture wound caused by the hook?

Can't speak for others but plenty of Carp fishermen carry all sorts of stuff to sort a fish out - ointments and whatnot for different problems.