Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

What does this mean for America?


  • Please log in to reply
138 replies to this topic

#106    ninjadude

ninjadude

    Seeker of truths

  • Member
  • 11,047 posts
  • Joined:11 Sep 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois

  • "dirt collects at the interfaces"

Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:56 AM

View Postjoc, on 12 November 2012 - 03:28 AM, said:

..How is it that suddenly if everyone has an insurance policy that the insurance companies will suddenly be able to pay for Every medical expense known to mankind?

They don't now and they won't in the future either. What makes you think they would have to?

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
- Friedrich Nietzsche

#107    ninjadude

ninjadude

    Seeker of truths

  • Member
  • 11,047 posts
  • Joined:11 Sep 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois

  • "dirt collects at the interfaces"

Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:57 AM

View Postjoc, on 12 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

By 2016 the Government will be bankrupt.

not possible. We print our own money.

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
- Friedrich Nietzsche

#108    ninjadude

ninjadude

    Seeker of truths

  • Member
  • 11,047 posts
  • Joined:11 Sep 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois

  • "dirt collects at the interfaces"

Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:00 AM

View Postjoc, on 12 November 2012 - 04:31 AM, said:

The first solution would be to allow Health Insurance Companies to expand beyond state lines.

It's clear then that you have not read or even educated yourself about the affordable care act. That is precisely one of the many things it does.

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
- Friedrich Nietzsche

#109    ninjadude

ninjadude

    Seeker of truths

  • Member
  • 11,047 posts
  • Joined:11 Sep 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Illinois

  • "dirt collects at the interfaces"

Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:03 AM

View Postdocyabut2, on 12 November 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I know they want end all medicare and put everyone on a single one payer plan to the government  and everyone has to pay that health tax,

They you're not aware at all. The affordable care act does no such thing. And everyone does not have to pay a "health tax". That's just silly.

"Whatever you can do or dream you can, begin it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Begin it now!""
- Friedrich Nietzsche

#110    joc

joc

    Adminstrator of Cosmic Blues

  • Member
  • 12,732 posts
  • Joined:12 Dec 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milky Way Galaxy 3rd planet

  • They're wearing steel that's bright and true
    They carry news that must get through
    They choose the path where no-one goes

Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:01 AM

View Postninjadude, on 13 November 2012 - 02:00 AM, said:

It's clear then that you have not read or even educated yourself about the affordable care act. That is precisely one of the many things it does.
Look, you keep missing something...maybe it's because you don't want to believe it, maybe it's because you haven't logically thought it all the way through...maybe whatever...you are missing that the end result of ObamaCare is Single Payer...it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what particulars there are about insurance companies...because there aren't going to be any left...sooner than later.

Posted Image
once i believed that starlight could guide me home
now i know that light is old and stars are cold

ReverbNation

#111    F3SS

F3SS

    Majestic 12 Operative

  • Member
  • 6,559 posts
  • Joined:11 Jun 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Pittsburgh, Pa

Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:50 AM


View PostMissMelsWell, on 12 November 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

I can't see how buying across state lines is going to fix the problem of high premiums and outrageous deductables.

My first thought is competition. My second thought is that you don't like it because Joc said it. My third thought is would you like it if it was a part of the ACA because ninja says it is... Honestly, I don't know if it is and I would like you and ninja to hash this out.

Posted Image

#112    sam12six

sam12six

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,371 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:01 AM

Here's the problem with health care: It's too damned expensive. Does anyone disagree with this? Assuming you don't, why is it so expensive? It's because we've gotten to the point that routine expenses now go through insurance companies and the prices skyrocketed as a result. Hospitals don't actually care what things cost because they'll just pass rising costs to the insurance companies. Insurance companies don't care because they'll just pass the cost to those they underwrite. Vendors (those who supply the hospital with the equipment and medicines and such) take advantage of this by jacking prices on anything sold to the medical community - as in hundreds of percent higher than an individual could buy the same product straight from the manufacturer.

There are 4 ways to deal with the situation (in order from least to most "socialist"):

Free market - let people who can't afford medical care die. Eventually enough people will die that hospitals will begin to compete in terms of value instead of the current "We replace our perfectly functional $12M MRI machine every year" prestige competition, putting pressure on vendors to lower prices. Theoretically things eventually reach a balance.

Obamacare - force private insurance companies to accept nonprofitable customers and compensate them by forcing otherwise uninterested people to become their customers. In the short term, this works because it'll broaden the customer base of insurance companies. In the long run, the problem will probably get far, far worse because the system that has created the ridiculous prices on medical supplies hasn't changed except for having more money flowing through it.

Government regulation on vendor profit - like the way the government limits the interest that banks can charge on loans, the government could (at the very least) ensure that the prices vendors charge the medical community are not marked up to ungodly levels just because the people actually paying the bill are two steps removed from the ones they submit the bill to. Actual health care reform as opposed to some health INSURANCE reform with perks.

A single payer system - the government setting up hospitals staffed with doctors and nurses who are actually paid by the government and using the bargaining strength of the government to strongarm vendors into providing supplies at a reasonable cost.

Of the 4 choices, Obamacare is the only one that can't theoretically work in the long run. I don't blame Obama for that. The POTUS is limited to what Congress is willing to do. It's helping people at the moment but it's a stop-gap measure. I'd personally like to see government regulation on vendors, but at the very least, the government should open its own hospitals/clinics for those who are getting their health care dollars from taxes (Medicaid, whatever).


#113    MissMelsWell

MissMelsWell

    Cosmic Baker

  • Member
  • 13,255 posts
  • Joined:12 Feb 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Pacific Northwest

Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:26 AM

sam12six, I don't actaully disagree with you.

I never said "obamacare" was the answer, I know it's not, I see it as a step toward reform. At some point, I'd like to see heavy regulation on the ENTIRE industry, including insurance companies. I'd likely stop short of single payer.

Thank you for your excellent synopsis.

"It's time for the American people to stand up and shrug off the shackles of our government at TSA at the airport"  Ron Paul

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin

#114    sam12six

sam12six

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,371 posts
  • Joined:07 May 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Georgia

Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:45 AM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 13 November 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

sam12six, I don't actaully disagree with you.

I never said "obamacare" was the answer, I know it's not, I see it as a step toward reform. At some point, I'd like to see heavy regulation on the ENTIRE industry, including insurance companies. I'd likely stop short of single payer.

Thank you for your excellent synopsis.

Yeah, I wasn't saying, "Ha!! You're wrong!!".  :td:

It's just one of my pet peeves that whenever people get into this discussion one side screams socialism and the other says it's health care reform and it's neither - it's a halfassed insurance reform that does nothing to address the problem (which is that an average working American can't afford routine medical care out of pocket and must use insurance for it). If car insurance companies started letting routine maintenance become an allowable claim, it wouldn't be long before an oil change cost two hundred bucks.

I like the intent of Obamacare, but I think the implementation will just allow the problem to keep growing.


#115    LucidElement

LucidElement

    Mystic Divinity

  • Member
  • 3,586 posts
  • Joined:26 Aug 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Great North Woods

  • Imagination Is More Important Than Knowledge -Albert Einstein

Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:05 AM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 12 November 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

Dude, you're TOTALLY wrong. Portions of "obamacare" have gone into effect, like the pre-existing condition clause. the full plan doesnt go into effect until 2014 but portions of it have already. So yes, your pre-existing conditions were required to have been covered in 2010. Look it up. Prior to 2010, pre-existing wasn't covered.

In my state, I can't get Blue Cross for $150, unless it's catostrophic care. Do you know what that is? I can't afford $150 for nothing. It covers NOTHING unless I"m in some kind of freak accident.  And, the deductable is... drum roll... 10K.

And that $300 a month plan, you know what that covers? Virtually nothing and the deductable and patient portion is so high it's also not worth buying, 30% of the bill would be my responsibility to pay along with $35 co-pays each time I walked into the office. For my upcoming surgery, do you know witht that plan how much I'd be responsible for in my state? $7500 and it doesn't cover prescriptions so that bill is going to be even higher when I get it!. I haven't got that kind of money, especially after paying $300 a month for the premiums!

If I want comparable to what I get at work now, and buy it on my own, it would be $607 a month! and that still includes a big patient portion, but manageable if you are working and can make payment arrangements with the hospital. You have to read the small print before you buy a health plan. I hope you don't get sick and it leaves you bankrupt. Of course in 2014, it won't.

BTW, I live in Seattle, not NYC. It's MUCH higher in Washington and covers less than it does in NY. That's why I asked if you live in NY. NY has had heavily regulated insurance companies for years for both auto and health.

i live in MT.. from CA.. but had indepent health care in both states.. I have comprehensive health insurance because of pre-exsisting conditions.. i couldnt get a regular  blue cross blue shield plan.. i pay 240.00 a month my deductible is 2500... but catastropic insurance is better then nothing. even at 5k or 10k. you never know when youll need it..

"The Truth Is Out There, Its Up To Us To Find The Answers."

"Imagination Is More Important Than Knowledge." - Einstein

Avatar done by The Barman!!!

#116    joc

joc

    Adminstrator of Cosmic Blues

  • Member
  • 12,732 posts
  • Joined:12 Dec 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milky Way Galaxy 3rd planet

  • They're wearing steel that's bright and true
    They carry news that must get through
    They choose the path where no-one goes

Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:10 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 13 November 2012 - 06:26 AM, said:

sam12six, I don't actaully disagree with you.

I never said "obamacare" was the answer, I know it's not, I see it as a step toward reform. At some point, I'd like to see heavy regulation on the ENTIRE industry, including insurance companies. I'd likely stop short of single payer.

Thank you for your excellent synopsis.
You voted for it!
If you voted for Obama...you voted for ObamaCare...and if you didn't know it would end in Single Payer...then well, that's no one's fault but your own!



Posted Image
once i believed that starlight could guide me home
now i know that light is old and stars are cold

ReverbNation

#117    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 35,613 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 13 November 2012 - 01:18 PM

View Postjoc, on 13 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

You voted for it!
If you voted for Obama...you voted for ObamaCare...and if you didn't know it would end in Single Payer...then well, that's no one's fault but your own!


It is very cheap to squeal against it without offering an alternative but "turn around and die". And the unsustainable situation has existed since the 80s, time enough for some to stop dragging their feet and get their ar$e in gear. Instead all we heard is what they don't want, well, for lack of action now you got it.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#118    preacherman76

preacherman76

    Humble Servent

  • Member
  • 10,905 posts
  • Joined:16 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Parts Unknown

Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:48 PM

View Postjoc, on 13 November 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

Look, you keep missing something...maybe it's because you don't want to believe it, maybe it's because you haven't logically thought it all the way through...maybe whatever...you are missing that the end result of ObamaCare is Single Payer...it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what particulars there are about insurance companies...because there aren't going to be any left...sooner than later.

Thats not true joc. If it were so, he wouldnt have taken that outta the bill. There was no reason for him to take it out. In fact, if one didnt understand that he sold out to health insurance companies, it would be very hard to understand why he took it out at all. All he did was piss off the people who supported him. 0bama is not a socialist, contrary to popular belief. He is a government run by corperations kinda guy. Wants to run a Oligarchy type government.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#119    preacherman76

preacherman76

    Humble Servent

  • Member
  • 10,905 posts
  • Joined:16 Jul 2007
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Parts Unknown

Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:02 PM

View PostMissMelsWell, on 12 November 2012 - 02:41 PM, said:

Do you have anything constructive to add? The government is already bankrupt thanks to a giant war pointless war put on a credit card.

Oh and I didn't like your plan for fixing health care. I can't see how buying across state lines is going to fix the problem of high premiums and outrageous deductables. And you talked some nonsense about paying doctors.Contrary to popular belief, doctors don't make as much money as you might think they do. My sister is a doctor, she makes less than I do and we won't even talk about her student loans. Beleive it or not, my sister is an advocate of full-on socialized medicine.

Miss, right now insurance companies have a monopoly in each state. Some states having as few as 2 insurance companies to choose from. You open the boarders, you open competition. It would go along way in reducing the prices.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#120    joc

joc

    Adminstrator of Cosmic Blues

  • Member
  • 12,732 posts
  • Joined:12 Dec 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milky Way Galaxy 3rd planet

  • They're wearing steel that's bright and true
    They carry news that must get through
    They choose the path where no-one goes

Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:08 PM

Quote

Quote

Posted Imagejoc, on 13 November 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

Look, you keep missing something...maybe it's because you don't want to believe it, maybe it's because you haven't logically thought it all the way through...maybe whatever...you are missing that the end result of ObamaCare is Single Payer...it doesn't make a damn bit of difference what particulars there are about insurance companies...because there aren't going to be any left...sooner than later.




Thats not true joc. If it were so, he wouldnt have taken that outta the bill. There was no reason for him to take it out. In fact, if one didnt understand that he sold out to health insurance companies, it would be very hard to understand why he took it out at all. All he did was piss off the people who supported him. 0bama is not a socialist, contrary to popular belief. He is a government run by corperations kinda guy. Wants to run a Oligarchy type government.
Really?  Would you be interested in purchasing a beautiful home on the beach?  Just asking, because I have one I will sell you.  It is located only 20 miles south of Witchita, Kansas.  Beautiful rolling green hills that settle up nicely to the gorgeous beach view.  Just imagine yourself preacherman, sitting on the beach, watching the waves roll in.  Ah, can you smell the salty breeze?  All this for the low, low price of ...that's right...$22,000.   Twenty-two thousand dollars preacherman, and you can be living on the beach...fishing every day...picking up seashells that roll in with the high tide...and surfing.  I'm talking eight foot waves preach!

Then on the other hand...you might just be buying a hunk of Kansas dirt.  But just imagine....

Posted Image
once i believed that starlight could guide me home
now i know that light is old and stars are cold

ReverbNation




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users