1528 replies to this topic

[quillius]

maybe I need more than two minutes as the folder has quite a bit in there from previous debate with Psyche.

However, I would just like to point out that the bottom line is Edgar still says 'he knows' there has been a cover up by the government...not that he believes or thinks he actually knows......how is he so convinced?

[quillius]

I may have to withdraw my Roswell comment. I cannot find the information that led me to that conclusion. Its quite possible it was this article by Kevin Randle (blogsport) that was implanted in my memory.

On Friday, July 25, Mitchell had the opportunity to clear up some of these misconceptions when he appeared on BlogTalkRadio’s ShapeShifting, hosted by Lisa Bonnice. He did say there was a cover up at Roswell, but also suggested that NASA knew nothing about it, or rather he had no information to suggest that NASA knew about it.

In response to one of Bonnice’s questions about Roswell, Mitchell said:

I was talking about the Roswell incident, the Roswell visitation primarily, but there have been many others that have been reported that I have no personal awareness of but that was the one that I was really talking about... and my information comes from what I call "the old timers," because I grew up in the Roswell area and when I went to the moon, some of the old timers from that period, some locals, and others military and intelligence people, who were under rather severe oaths to not reveal any of this and kind of wanted to get their conscience clear and off their chests before they passed on, selected me and said, independently - this wasn't a group effort - independently that maybe I might be a safe person to tell their story to. And all of them confirmed, and what I'm saying is they confirmed the Roswell incident was a real incident and they in some way had some part in it that they wanted to talk about.

Mitchell continued by saying:

Well, that the crash of an alien spacecraft in the Roswell area was a real event and much of the lore, I can't say all of the lore, but much of the fact that dead bodies were recovered and live ones were recovered, that they were not of this world, was the story. And of course it was reported in the Roswell Daily Record one day and promptly denied the next day and a cover story of a weather balloon, and that was pure nonsense. That was a cover-up.

Later, Mitchell told Irene Klotz from the Discovery Channel:

Subsequent to that, I did take my story to the Pentagon - not NASA, but the Pentagon - and asked for a meeting with the Intelligence Committee of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and got it. And told them my story and what I know and eventually had that confirmed by the admiral that I spoke with, that indeed what I was saying was true.

At first glance this actually supports my initial comment but there are some problems with this summary by Kevin which puts the case across with cherry picked elements of the interview, leaving context somewhat missed IMO.

I do think that Edgar has also made it clear that he believes the cover up is by a group of individuals as opposed to a collective organisational directive. I think it may be possible to establish if he considers some of these individuals to be within NASA as well as Goverment

[Hazzard]

quillius, on 19 November 2012 - 04:28 PM, said:

However, I would just like to point out that the bottom line is Edgar still says 'he knows' there has been a cover up by the government...not that he believes or thinks he actually knows......how is he so convinced?

I think that Dr. Mitchell "knows" we have been visited by ET (and that NASA/the Government is covering it up) the same way the usual UFO buffs "knows" about stuff like that.

In the end though, we are simply talking about opinion and belief.

[quillius]

Hazzard, on 19 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

I think that Dr. Mitchell "knows" we have been visited by ET (and that NASA/the Government is covering it up) the same way the usual UFO buffs "knows" about stuff like that.

In the end though, we are simply talking about opinion and belief.

hmmm, although I wouldnt call Dr Edgar Mitchell a UFO buff.....at least not how you imply. If you go through his transcripts of historical interviews and look carefully at the words he uses and what he says you may just realise that he would not confuse opinion and belief with 'knowing' as easily as you suggest.

Many a time he is clear as to what he does or doesnt know, or what he is or isnt opinion etc...


Do you think the Government covered up UFOs Hazz? (I am not saying UFOs were ET but lets say they were at least thought to be hence cover up....)

[TheMacGuffin]

Karlis, on 19 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

Folks, in my opinion you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing. Please don't waste time accusing each other of knowingly or unknowingly posting falsehoods. That is not the purpose of this thread, which started off about discerning UFOs in film clips.

Everybody -- please drop personal issues, and present facts that are relevant.
Karlis -- mod team member

It's not just a personal issue with me, but if anyone doubts what I just posted then I refer hem back to the Gordon Cooper threads of a few weeks ago, which will prove what I just said.  

My point was that Oberg and Friends set out to do a complete hatchet job on Gordon Cooper and it went on and on and on for days, as you can see here:


http://www.unexplain...r


Not a nice way of doing business.

Oberg does seem a little more hesitant to go after Edgar Mitchell in quite the same way.  I'm not sure why but perhaps it's because Mitchell is still alive and would be able to defend himself in court if it came to that.

Edited by TheMacGuffin, 19 November 2012 - 05:17 PM.

[booNyzarC]

Hazzard, on 19 November 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

I think that Dr. Mitchell "knows" we have been visited by ET (and that NASA/the Government is covering it up) the same way the usual UFO buffs "knows" about stuff like that.

In the end though, we are simply talking about opinion and belief.

I agree Hazzard.  We see people saying that they "know" about this and all kinds of other things, but it translates into "I so strongly believe this to be true that I can't imagine it not being true."

[TheMacGuffin]

quillius, on 19 November 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

hmmm, although I wouldnt call Dr Edgar Mitchell a UFO buff.....at least not how you imply. If you go through his transcripts of historical interviews and look carefully at the words he uses and what he says you may just realise that he would not confuse opinion and belief with 'knowing' as easily as you suggest.

Many a time he is clear as to what he does or doesnt know, or what he is or isnt opinion etc...


Do you think the Government covered up UFOs Hazz? (I am not saying UFOs were ET but lets say they were at least thought to be hence cover up....)

Mitchell has been quite clear about his views on UFOs and ETs, so much so that I see no need to post anything more about it since it becomes very repetitive after a while.

[JimOberg]

quillius, on 19 November 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

I think it may be possible to establish if he considers some of these individuals to be within NASA as well as Goverment

It may be possible, sure -- when anybody finds quotations from Mitchell actually SAYING it.

So far, it's all 'he MUST have meant to say' excursions that jump off from him saying something entirely different.

What's actually been established on all these pages is that people are passionate about interpreting ambiguous or even unrelated comments as confirmatory of things they already believe.

This is a trait of sloppy human thought, and anybody can fall into it.

Special care is needed to minimize it -- it's hopeless to expect to eliminate it.

Discussions here may be a partial antidote. Thanks to all sides.

[quillius]

booNyzarC, on 19 November 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

I agree Hazzard.  We see people saying that they "know" about this and all kinds of other things, but it translates into "I so strongly believe this to be true that I can't imagine it not being true."

and do you think this is the case with Edgar?

[TheMacGuffin]

JimOberg, on 19 November 2012 - 03:47 PM, said:

"Easily accessible" is a two-edged sword, since McG -- or YOU -- then should have been able to find the interview in which Mitchell explicitly said that the claim HE claimed NASA was involved in the coverup was distorted and untrue.

But you didn't.

It's why threads such as this one provide a worthwhile antidote, as adherents each search for the strongest material to support their arguments. Most definitely NOT a waste of time.

In the end of this particular dispute, after all the effort that McG has obviousl put into it, and all the false alarms about 'proof', he did find one quotation that mentioned how Mitchell believes that 'some' people involved in the moon landing "know" that UFOs are real.

I told ya so?  Didn't I tell ya so?

I go to all that time and trouble only to be told that it was all just a bunch of "nothing".

As I said, I'm very bored with this and refuse to look up anything else about it.  If Oberg wants to look up something about Edgar Mitchell he can do it himself.  I have had enough of it.

[mcrom901]

why couldn't mitchell be involved in some psyops?

[TheMacGuffin]

JimOberg, on 19 November 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

It may be possible, sure -- when anybody finds quotations from Mitchell actually SAYING it.

So far, it's all 'he MUST have meant to say' excursions that jump off from him saying something entirely different.

What's actually been established on all these pages is that people are passionate about interpreting ambiguous or even unrelated comments as confirmatory of things they already believe.

I told ya so, didn't I?

Enough of this.  Mitchell said what he said and it's on tape and in print.  I refuse to discuss it any more because I am tired of being made to jump though hoops only to be told that my efforts are of no value.  Maybe Oberg is getting a good chuckle over this, but it won't happen again.

[JimOberg]

TheMacGuffin, on 19 November 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

It's not just a personal issue with me, but if anyone doubts what I just posted then I refer hem back to the Gordon Cooper threads of a few weeks ago, which will prove what I just said.  

My point was that Oberg and Friends set out to do a complete hatchet job on Gordon Cooper and it went on and on and on for days, as you can see here:


http://www.unexplain...r


Not a nice way of doing business.

Oberg does seem a little more hesitant to go after Edgar Mitchell in quite the same way.  I'm not sure why but perhaps it's because Mitchell is still alive and would be able to defend himself in court if it came to that.

What a fanatic believer sees as a 'hatchet job' is what a researcher sees as a 'credibility check'. And the evidence that in later years the wilder stories from Cooper were utterly unworthy of belief is so overwhelming, the only recourse is to make the investigation of claims [and independent confirmation or refutation of them] look like a personal attack on character. Which is false.

[booNyzarC]

quillius, on 19 November 2012 - 05:22 PM, said:

and do you think this is the case with Edgar?

Without him having direct evidence I don't see how it can be honestly interpreted any other way.  We've been over this many times.

He believes what he has been told by people that he has a high degree of trust in and respect for.  That isn't knowledge, it is belief.  Very very strong belief, but belief nonetheless.

[JimOberg]

TheMacGuffin, on 19 November 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Oberg does seem a little more hesitant to go after Edgar Mitchell in quite the same way.  I'm not sure why but perhaps it's because Mitchell is still alive and would be able to defend himself in court if it came to that.

It's more connected with the fact that I have no reason to doubt the accuracy of factual claims made by Mitchell. He probably WAS told these things by other people. How is that so hard to accept?

He has also explained his joking about 'visitors' on the moon, but here, it is believers who claim he is lying under duress from the dark forces. Who's attacking character now?

I have criticized his interpretations of his ESP experiment results while applauding his innovative actions to conduct the experiment.