Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 17 votes

How do I invite evil spirits to my home?


  • Please log in to reply
2280 replies to this topic

#1771    booNyzarC

booNyzarC

    Forum Divinity

  • Closed
  • 13,536 posts
  • Joined:18 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:11 AM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

No, I just believe making requests for demons on a public forum for "scientific purposes" is an absurdity.

Why is it an absurdity?

A forum like this provides for a worldwide opportunity and audience.  Anyone from anywhere can answer the relevant questions asked.  What better medium would you suggest for a completely open and transparent investigation such as this?

Every detail can be logged here, preserved, and analyzed.  Every suggested ritual can be tested.

And if one of them actually seems to work, it can be reproduced for the purposes of verification and confirmation.  What better medium is there for this?



View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

In fact, I have repeatedly stated there is no scientific purpose to this thread but rather a sceptic posturing and beating his chest in this thread.

Yes, you've repeatedly said all kinds of things, but that doesn't make them true.  You're the one who is posturing.  You're offering absolutely nothing of value to the thread or the idea.  You haven't proven anything.  You haven't shown that your beliefs in demons are substantiated by anything, and Sakari has given you a prime opportunity right here to do just that.

The big question is...  why haven't YOU provided something that can put Sakari and other skeptical people in their place?  Why hasn't ANYONE AT ALL done that?

If ghosts, demons, possessions, goblins, or whatever are so real, why can't anybody prove it?



View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

There is not even a shred of openness in the OP's opinion.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Are you trying to say that Sakari isn't open to the possibility?  If so, I say you're mistaken.  He has been practically begging people to substantiate these claims.  Nobody has come through and he has tried all kinds of (frankly...) completely ridiculous nonsense in his efforts.

If you really want to know who isn't open, take a look in the mirror.  Your beliefs are being challenged here.  Why do you hold onto them?  Can't you validate them?

Perhaps it is your inability to validate them which compels you to lash out at Sakari in the way that you have.  Feeling threatened maybe?



View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 04:41 AM, said:

He has repeatedly given us his biased and prejudiced views about the subject, why should anyone even bother tolerating this thread in the first place?

Biased and prejudiced views?  He's tried so many things that haven't panned out, isn't he afforded the right to declare that none of it has worked under those circumstances?  Isn't he afforded the privilege of raising the bar and challenging people to bring something more?


You need to get a grip man, or bring something to the table that nobody else has been able to provide; proof.


#1772    GoSC

GoSC

    HOSEA 1:10; 2:23

  • Member
  • 2,615 posts
  • Joined:26 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Silver Mountain

Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:22 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 12 November 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Why is it an absurdity?

A forum like this provides for a worldwide opportunity and audience.  Anyone from anywhere can answer the relevant questions asked.  What better medium would you suggest for a completely open and transparent investigation such as this?

Every detail can be logged here, preserved, and analyzed.  Every suggested ritual can be tested.

And if one of them actually seems to work, it can be reproduced for the purposes of verification and confirmation.  What better medium is there for this?

And if it cant be reproduced? That it is scientifically impossible?

Quote

Yes, you've repeatedly said all kinds of things, but that doesn't make them true.  You're the one who is posturing.  You're offering absolutely nothing of value to the thread or the idea.  You haven't proven anything.  You haven't shown that your beliefs in demons are substantiated by anything, and Sakari has given you a prime opportunity right here to do just that.

The big question is...  why haven't YOU provided something that can put Sakari and other skeptical people in their place?  Why hasn't ANYONE AT ALL done that?

If ghosts, demons, possessions, goblins, or whatever are so real, why can't anybody prove it?

And if demons dont want to be substantiated? That is a private battle that even those nearest and dearest to the victim may or may not even experience anything substantiating?

Quote

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  Are you trying to say that Sakari isn't open to the possibility?  If so, I say you're mistaken.  He has been practically begging people to substantiate these claims.  Nobody has come through and he has tried all kinds of (frankly...) completely ridiculous nonsense in his efforts.

If you really want to know who isn't open, take a look in the mirror.  Your beliefs are being challenged here.  Why do you hold onto them?  Can't you validate them?

Perhaps it is your inability to validate them which compels you to lash out at Sakari in the way that you have.  Feeling threatened maybe?

Only if the entities choose to be validated?

Quote

Biased and prejudiced views?  He's tried so many things that haven't panned out, isn't he afforded the right to declare that none of it has worked under those circumstances?  Isn't he afforded the privilege of raising the bar and challenging people to bring something more?

You need to get a grip man, or bring something to the table that nobody else has been able to provide; proof.

No, I just dont see any valid science in someone bluntly stating, "bring on the demons"? And then, turn around and admit he flat out doesnt believe in demons or in possessions. It doesnt show the least bit of awareness of the sensitivity of the subject. And that these people could have endured a real battle in life that he has made light of with this circus of a thread.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#1773    booNyzarC

booNyzarC

    Forum Divinity

  • Closed
  • 13,536 posts
  • Joined:18 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:49 AM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

And if it cant be reproduced? That it is scientifically impossible?

If it can't be reproduced it is scientifically unproven, kind of like free energy, bigfoot, and alien visitation.  That doesn't make it impossible, it makes it unproven.

Do you see the distinction?


View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

And if demons dont want to be substantiated? That is a private battle that even those nearest and dearest to the victim may or may not even experience anything substantiating?

Or perhaps there is another explanation for it besides demons?  We humans are very complex organisms comprised of incredible biological systems, perhaps the most intriguing of which is our brains.  How incredible are our brains?  Amazing I say!  And yet so fragile.  The slightest problem can result in the most disastrous of circumstances.

Do you think it is possible that what many have traditionally considered to be 'possessions' just might be symptomatic of physiological problems with the brain, whether temporary or chronic?


View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

Only if the entities choose to be validated?

What entities?  Do they live in our closets?  Under our beds?  Down in the bowels of Hell (wherever the Hell that is...)?  Or do they reside solely within us, within our vivid imaginations?  Or somewhere else?

Educate me.  Tell me how it is.  Explain it to me with every detail.  Leave nothing out and don't cloud anything over with mysticism or foggy woo-woo language.



View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

No, I just dont see any valid science in someone bluntly stating, "bring on the demons"? And then, turn around and admit he flat out doesnt believe in demons or in possessions. It doesnt show the least bit of awareness of the sensitivity of the subject. And that these people could have endured a real battle in life that he has made light of with this circus of a thread.

Why should he believe in demons or possessions if he hasn't been given any reason to do so?  I say again, he has been practically begging people to give him a reason to believe in this.  Nobody, and I literally mean NOBODY, has been able to provide that.  Not you, not your neighbor, not my uncle Billy, not Sakari's aunt Suzie (if he has an aunt Suzie...), not a single soul...  nada, zero, zip.

Add to this the reality that claims of possession have resulted in documented instances of wrongful death and abuse.  Literally.  What are we to do with that?  What do YOU think about that?  Children smothered to death because their parents and some priest who thought he knew about demons took action instead of getting that kid where they needed to be for actual help.  What about that kind of thing?

That's the real circus, and it's a damn tragic circus if you ask me.

If Sakari's thread gives one single parent pause under similar circumstances, it has been worth every page and every post.  If there is even one single person out there who decides to get a second opinion instead of blindly believing whatever codswallop their 'exorcist' minister or priest is feeding them, he has won a battle against the true demons of this world.  And I salute him for it.

So no.  If you want to play holier than thou in this game, bring something to the table to back you up.  If you want to pass judgement on Sakari and others who are equally skeptical of these unsubstantiated claims you need to either up the ante or toss in your cards.

Or I suppose you could keep on nipping at Sakari's heels like you have been and continue to expose the fact that you have absolutely nothing to substantiate your beliefs or the claims surrounding demons and possession.

Cheers.


#1774    _Only

_Only

  • Member
  • 6,547 posts
  • Joined:24 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

  • Did you ever grow anything in the garden of your mind? You can grow ideas, in the garden of your mind. - Mr. Rogers

Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:00 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 12 November 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

Or perhaps there is another explanation for it besides demons?  We humans are very complex organisms comprised of incredible biological systems, perhaps the most intriguing of which is our brains.  How incredible are our brains?  Amazing I say!  And yet so fragile.  The slightest problem can result in the most disastrous of circumstances.

Do you think it is possible that what many have traditionally considered to be 'possessions' just might be symptomatic of physiological problems with the brain, whether temporary or chronic?


The problem here is a common one in arguments here: explain how your view is right, but you have to use my view's rules to do it.

In this case, a certain group of people are determined that the only things that are 'real' in the span of our consciousness are things that can be tested physically. All else unexplained physically is some kind of mistake or trick of a physical thing in their eyes, and gets chalked up to the mysterious brain.

While another group of people are determined that there is something more than the simply physical aspect of our consciousness. This group spans so many branching offshoots that it's hard to concisely label them any more than that, but in this case, we'll call them people who believe that physical byproducts we see in the mind can be caused by something beyond the physical. Why do they feel this way? We, as humans, have felt and thought these type of things all through our living history. It's just a part of who we are.

The problem lies in one side (in this case, the physical side) attempting to make the other validate their feelings on the subject, but must use physical 'rules' (aka scientific/empirical evidence) to validate their non-physical things. This type of back and forth can never possibly go anywhere. Yet I still see "can't be scientifically proven" as an opposing argument every single time. It just doesn't make sense. It is "I am right, and you can't prove otherwise, using my rules".



Quote

What entities?  Do they live in our closets?  Under our beds?  Down in the bowels of Hell (wherever the Hell that is...)?  Or do they reside solely within us, within our vivid imaginations?  Or somewhere else?

Educate me.  Tell me how it is.  Explain it to me with every detail.  Leave nothing out and don't cloud anything over with mysticism or foggy woo-woo language.

Another problem is when the opposing side is forced to give in and attempt to explain their abstract view of things, using your rules. It gets labelled malarkey, mysticism, and.. "foggy woo-woo". There is no way to get through the wall. Now you can start to see why some of the people here who are attempting to defend their views (as you and no one else here will deny are attacked) get so defensive in the discussion.

These are things I have noticed after seeing a ton of these threads go the way they do, and after awhile the side I used to see as the strong side in the debate is slowly starting to drop down in their righteosness. The other side isn't necessarily gaining any ground, but I can start to sympathize with their stance more.

Quote

Why should he believe in demons or possessions if he hasn't been given any reason to do so?  I say again, he has been practically begging people to give him a reason to believe in this.  Nobody, and I literally mean NOBODY, has been able to provide that.  Not you, not your neighbor, not my uncle Billy, not Sakari's aunt Suzie (if he has an aunt Suzie...), not a single soul...  nada, zero, zip.

I'll just finish with the final note that we all have our demons inside. Whether you will attribute them to a physical organ going haywire, random physical events happening in lives, forces in the mind from some other state of being, or evil monsters in the clouds, you can't deny that we all have our evil spirits, and they are inside. Sakari has his share, some maybe his, some perhaps others in his group of family and friends that affect him negatively. There is no doubt that these demons exist, despite anyone's willingness to admit it. What they are, in reality, is the only question.

But in the end, he is asking for proof of something which he simply already knows exists. He is just taking an adolescent stab at other peoples interpretation of stories, thinking these physical representations can happen to him by someone waving their magic wand. Meanwhile he sits with his demons every day, and rests with them every night. Yet no one has been successful yet, in his eyes.

We;;, it hasn't been 'scientifically proven', at least.

Footnote, that shouldn't be necessary for those who somewhat know me around here, before I get attacked: I don't believe spooks will throw a brick at me or a demon will toss me against the wall when I use a Ouija board. But I believe there are dark forces in the mind. Where they originate I can't pretend to know. But physical just doesn't cut it for me. I am man; I will always wonder of more beyond the physical.

Quote

Add to this the reality that claims of possession have resulted in documented instances of wrongful death and abuse.  Literally.  What are we to do with that?  What do YOU think about that?  Children smothered to death because their parents and some priest who thought he knew about demons took action instead of getting that kid where they needed to be for actual help.  What about that kind of thing?

That's the real circus, and it's a damn tragic circus if you ask me.

Now let's dig up the statistics on harm and deaths caused by doctor prescribed psychiatric medication side effects and complications, and see which side's tally towers over the other. 'Exorcisms vs. pills'. A priest may have given Analeise a death sentence through medical abandonment, but my doctor gave me diabetes.

It's be such a cool thing at this point then, that both sides would drop a holier than thou mentality, as it is not cohesive to getting to the root of things.

I love to make mashups! Click here to hear!
I also love taking pictures! Click here to see!
I love to play drums, too! Whatever you do, don't click here!

#1775    booNyzarC

booNyzarC

    Forum Divinity

  • Closed
  • 13,536 posts
  • Joined:18 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:17 AM

View Post_Only, on 12 November 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

These are things I have noticed after seeing a ton of these threads go the way they do, and after awhile the side I used to see as the strong side in the debate is slowly starting to drop down in their righteosness. The other side isn't necessarily gaining any ground, but I can start to sympathize with their stance more.

You brought up many things worthy of full response, but I'm going to bed and I have a long week ahead now that the weekend is over.

I'd like to address this part for the moment though.

I've always sympathized with fringe and unsubstantiated points of view, but that doesn't make them valid.  On the same token, it doesn't make them invalid either.  But the fact that they are unsubstantiated does make them unproven, and I noticed that you decided to avoid the portion of my post which tried to make that distinction.

You mentioned *rules* as well, so I'll ask you what *rules* are fair in this kind of discussion?  Which *rules* will satisfy all parties?

It's an honest question.  What *rules* do you honestly think will be able to govern conclusive and universal understanding/agreement regarding such matters?

Cheers.


#1776    Antilles

Antilles

    NCC-1701

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,213 posts
  • Joined:23 Jul 2011
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:2nd star from the left

Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:53 AM

How is the evil spirit thing going?

I know the best way.

Dodgy bottle of Jack Daniels bought from a guy wearing an overcoat at a filling station. :gun:


#1777    Sakari

Sakari

    tohi

  • Member
  • 12,214 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Safford, Arizona...My heart and soul are still on the Oregon Coast.

  • Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:43 PM

View PostAmbush Bug, on 12 November 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

[/color]

Nothing wrong with people seeking advice on spiritual matters, it offers them anonymity afterall and no commitments. Not all people know what to do and can be in quite a desperate quagmire. Some may encounter liberal ministers that only further complicate and confuse the issue.



To answer the chest beating in this thread.


Really?......Unless it is a skeptic, or someone who does not believe the same as you do......Double standard bull ****.....How do you not see what you are doing to yourself ?

Can you make up your damn mind all ready?


You are the most double standard person i have ever seen.

And why will you not answer why this topic makes you so upset?......I know the answer, just want to hear a honest answer from you.

Actually, lets do this. If you have nothing to add to the discussion, how about do not post. I had all ready mentioned to you, every time you post a reply, this topic shows up as " a new un read reply ", and also moves up the list for newbies to see. Do you not realise, if you do not reply, and no one else does for a while, this topic will be buried, and harder to see?

Or, just keep acting the way you are, it will keep the topic very visible.....

Our Wolf's Memorial Page

http://petsupports.com/a04/sakari.htm


#1778    joc

joc

    Adminstrator of Cosmic Blues

  • Member
  • 12,688 posts
  • Joined:12 Dec 2003
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Milky Way Galaxy 3rd planet

  • They're wearing steel that's bright and true
    They carry news that must get through
    They choose the path where no-one goes

Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:57 PM

Have you visited a congregation of The Church of Satan and asked for their help?

Maybe Give it a Shot

Posted Image
once i believed that starlight could guide me home
now i know that light is old and stars are cold

ReverbNation

#1779    Saru

Saru

    Site Webmaster

  • 20,010 posts
  • Joined:06 Mar 2001
  • Gender:Male

  • "The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious." - Albert Einstein

Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:11 PM

One final warning here before this thread is closed - enough with the obnoxious remarks, bickering and personal attacks please.

This applies to everyone.



#1780    Kazahel

Kazahel

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 3,985 posts
  • Joined:23 Apr 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The West.

  • What need is there of seeing, in the presence of His gratitude?

Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:57 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 12 November 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

Why hasn't ANYONE AT ALL done that?

If ghosts, demons, possessions, goblins, or whatever are so real, why can't anybody prove it?

*snip

Are you trying to say that Sakari isn't open to the possibility?  If so, I say you're mistaken.  He has been practically begging people to substantiate these claims.  Nobody has come through and he has tried all kinds of (frankly...) completely ridiculous nonsense in his efforts.

Sakari hasnt really tried everything though. Basically Sakari is after physical evidence of things which tend to be thought of as non physical. So he doesnt seem to be trying to attempt to communicate with spirits/angels/demons/guides/whatever.. in an environment where I believe they are more easily found. He apparently has "time constraints"(fishing and work yes?) when it comes to obe/lucid dreaming/astral travelling inorder to be in a better enviroment to explore the possiblity.  

So as I think I said before, I think if you were serious you would explore using all methods and environments and not really take any sides until then.

Of course though trying to prove something/someone you may experience during a dreamlike state is not just a part of your own mind is rather tricky. The subconscious is an amazing thing.

So I and at least one other have said of guides/angels in obe/lucid dreams but he doesnt seem to wish to follow up on that yet, so he has not tried everything like you seem to believe. And I think thats important to remember.

Edited by Kazahel, 12 November 2012 - 02:58 PM.


#1781    booNyzarC

booNyzarC

    Forum Divinity

  • Closed
  • 13,536 posts
  • Joined:18 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:21 PM

View Post_Only, on 12 November 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

The problem here is a common one in arguments here: explain how your view is right, but you have to use my view's rules to do it.

In this case, a certain group of people are determined that the only things that are 'real' in the span of our consciousness are things that can be tested physically. All else unexplained physically is some kind of mistake or trick of a physical thing in their eyes, and gets chalked up to the mysterious brain.

While another group of people are determined that there is something more than the simply physical aspect of our consciousness. This group spans so many branching offshoots that it's hard to concisely label them any more than that, but in this case, we'll call them people who believe that physical byproducts we see in the mind can be caused by something beyond the physical. Why do they feel this way? We, as humans, have felt and thought these type of things all through our living history. It's just a part of who we are.

The problem lies in one side (in this case, the physical side) attempting to make the other validate their feelings on the subject, but must use physical 'rules' (aka scientific/empirical evidence) to validate their non-physical things. This type of back and forth can never possibly go anywhere. Yet I still see "can't be scientifically proven" as an opposing argument every single time. It just doesn't make sense. It is "I am right, and you can't prove otherwise, using my rules".

I think your mistake here is that you're assuming this discussion is about 'everything' which is touted as 'spiritual.'  There is a big difference between 'spirituality' and the claims that there are evil entities which can haunt, hurt, damage, and possess people, places, and things.  As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is solely about the latter.  I am not questioning 'spirituality' by the way, which in my personal opinion is very real, but entails only light and love; not darkness and evil.  Please notice that I'm expressing that last bit as a personal belief, and one which I don't think can be proven to anyone else's satisfaction; but you won't find me arguing or debating about this on a forum or anywhere else either.

People, places, and things are physical.  They are measurable, testable, and verifiable.  If a claim is made that some kind of evil entity can have a direct physical impact on these physical things, that impact should be measurable, testable, and verifiable.  We have the scientific method at our disposal for this kind of thing, and it is by far the single most beneficial tool for the advancement of physical human understanding.  If there is a better tool, or more a appropriate set of rules that can be used for this, what is it?



View Post_Only, on 12 November 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Another problem is when the opposing side is forced to give in and attempt to explain their abstract view of things, using your rules. It gets labelled malarkey, mysticism, and.. "foggy woo-woo". There is no way to get through the wall. Now you can start to see why some of the people here who are attempting to defend their views (as you and no one else here will deny are attacked) get so defensive in the discussion.

These are things I have noticed after seeing a ton of these threads go the way they do, and after awhile the side I used to see as the strong side in the debate is slowly starting to drop down in their righteosness. The other side isn't necessarily gaining any ground, but I can start to sympathize with their stance more.

I believe that what you and others may perceive as attacks against the person are actually attacks against the idea that has been placed on the table.  Once someone puts their thoughts on the table, especially if they represent those thoughts as being authoritative and genuine honest-to-God factsTM, they will be examined and intensely scrutinized.  Please try to understand though that it is the idea on the table which is being attacked, not the person who put it there.  That is my intention when I'm involved in these kinds of discussions anyway, though I can see how people who are overly attached to their ideas can take that kind of thing personally and become defensive.





View Post_Only, on 12 November 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

I'll just finish with the final note that we all have our demons inside. Whether you will attribute them to a physical organ going haywire, random physical events happening in lives, forces in the mind from some other state of being, or evil monsters in the clouds, you can't deny that we all have our evil spirits, and they are inside. Sakari has his share, some maybe his, some perhaps others in his group of family and friends that affect him negatively. There is no doubt that these demons exist, despite anyone's willingness to admit it. What they are, in reality, is the only question.

But in the end, he is asking for proof of something which he simply already knows exists. He is just taking an adolescent stab at other peoples interpretation of stories, thinking these physical representations can happen to him by someone waving their magic wand. Meanwhile he sits with his demons every day, and rests with them every night. Yet no one has been successful yet, in his eyes.

We;;, it hasn't been 'scientifically proven', at least.

I don't disagree with the core principle of what I think you are communicating here.  People are prone to feeling and experiencing things which can be described as darkness, depression, sadness, foreboding, and helplessness.  We can call them demons, but it could just as easily be the same kind of label or name that could be termed sorrow, regret, shame, anger, and other emotional and/or psychological difficulties.  We all experience such things to varying degrees, but that doesn't make it a physical entity or an evil 'spiritual' entity with the power and ability to affect the physical.

So when someone puts forth the claim that this is what they are, the claim should be open for discussion, testing, and scrutiny.



View Post_Only, on 12 November 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Footnote, that shouldn't be necessary for those who somewhat know me around here, before I get attacked: I don't believe spooks will throw a brick at me or a demon will toss me against the wall when I use a Ouija board. But I believe there are dark forces in the mind. Where they originate I can't pretend to know. But physical just doesn't cut it for me. I am man; I will always wonder of more beyond the physical.

I think that I see where you're coming from Matt, and I personally believe that there is more to it than just the physical.  Where I get hung up is when people say that there are evil entities roaming around wreaking havoc on a select few of us.  I don't give that idea any weight at all because I simply don't believe that evil itself is even real, and let me explain why.

When you really boil this down to the basic extremes, you have something of substance being measured against itself with varying degrees.

Consider ignorance versus knowledge.  Is ignorance an actual thing with substance?  Or is it merely the absence of knowledge?

Consider darkness versus light.  Is darkness a tangible thing?  Or is it merely the absence of light?

I view good and evil in the same way, where evil is merely a measurement of the intensity or lack of good.  Evil has no substance in and of itself.  Even actions and behavior that people typically associate with evil can be defined as twisted and misguided attempts to obtain or achieve qualities or attributes which are potentially positive and beneficial when found through otherwise legitimate means.

This is my opinion and I share it as such.  It is not an effort to convince or debate, but to simply provide a better understanding of where I'm coming from as an individual.



View Post_Only, on 12 November 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

Now let's dig up the statistics on harm and deaths caused by doctor prescribed psychiatric medication side effects and complications, and see which side's tally towers over the other. 'Exorcisms vs. pills'. A priest may have given Analeise a death sentence through medical abandonment, but my doctor gave me diabetes.

Tu quoque.  This is a logical fallacy, and it bears no direct relevance to the claims that there are evil entities possessing people, places, and things.  I sympathize with your personal experience with your doctor, don't get me wrong, but hopefully you can see that it isn't applicable in this debate.  The medical field opens itself to scrutiny in order to be validated and advanced through the scientific method.  Where are the standards by which exorcists and exorcisms should be measured?



View Post_Only, on 12 November 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

It's be such a cool thing at this point then, that both sides would drop a holier than thou mentality, as it is not cohesive to getting to the root of things.

I agree.


#1782    Sakari

Sakari

    tohi

  • Member
  • 12,214 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2009
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Safford, Arizona...My heart and soul are still on the Oregon Coast.

  • Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:07 PM

View PostKazahel, on 12 November 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Sakari hasnt really tried everything though. Basically Sakari is after physical evidence of things which tend to be thought of as non physical. So he doesnt seem to be trying to attempt to communicate with spirits/angels/demons/guides/whatever.. in an environment where I believe they are more easily found. He apparently has "time constraints"(fishing and work yes?) when it comes to obe/lucid dreaming/astral travelling inorder to be in a better enviroment to explore the possiblity.  

So as I think I said before, I think if you were serious you would explore using all methods and environments and not really take any sides until then.

Of course though trying to prove something/someone you may experience during a dreamlike state is not just a part of your own mind is rather tricky. The subconscious is an amazing thing.

So I and at least one other have said of guides/angels in obe/lucid dreams but he doesnt seem to wish to follow up on that yet, so he has not tried everything like you seem to believe. And I think thats important to remember.


Very true, I am not looking into astral travel, or dream state " demons " or " ghosts ". I believe we went over this, and  I had made a seperate thread for that exact thing.

Fishing is not the issue ( although more important then this ), my work and sleep are. You also know why, it had to do with staying up all night, or doing things at a designated time. That would mean missing work, etc.

All in all, above example is not something people claim as their experiences, or ways to " summon " as a majority.

Our Wolf's Memorial Page

http://petsupports.com/a04/sakari.htm


#1783    JGirl

JGirl

    Pajama Goddess

  • Member
  • 8,936 posts
  • Joined:23 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:British Columbia Canada

Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 12 November 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

I think your mistake here is that you're assuming this discussion is about 'everything' which is touted as 'spiritual.'  There is a big difference between 'spirituality' and the claims that there are evil entities which can haunt, hurt, damage, and possess people, places, and things.  As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is solely about the latter.  I am not questioning 'spirituality' by the way, which in my personal opinion is very real, but entails only light and love; not darkness and evil.  Please notice that I'm expressing that last bit as a personal belief, and one which I don't think can be proven to anyone else's satisfaction; but you won't find me arguing or debating about this on a forum or anywhere else either.

People, places, and things are physical.  They are measurable, testable, and verifiable.  If a claim is made that some kind of evil entity can have a direct physical impact on these physical things, that impact should be measurable, testable, and verifiable.  We have the scientific method at our disposal for this kind of thing, and it is by far the single most beneficial tool for the advancement of physical human understanding.  If there is a better tool, or more a appropriate set of rules that can be used for this, what is it?





I believe that what you and others may perceive as attacks against the person are actually attacks against the idea that has been placed on the table.  Once someone puts their thoughts on the table, especially if they represent those thoughts as being authoritative and genuine honest-to-God factsTM, they will be examined and intensely scrutinized.  Please try to understand though that it is the idea on the table which is being attacked, not the person who put it there.  That is my intention when I'm involved in these kinds of discussions anyway, though I can see how people who are overly attached to their ideas can take that kind of thing personally and become defensive.







I don't disagree with the core principle of what I think you are communicating here.  People are prone to feeling and experiencing things which can be described as darkness, depression, sadness, foreboding, and helplessness.  We can call them demons, but it could just as easily be the same kind of label or name that could be termed sorrow, regret, shame, anger, and other emotional and/or psychological difficulties.  We all experience such things to varying degrees, but that doesn't make it a physical entity or an evil 'spiritual' entity with the power and ability to affect the physical.

So when someone puts forth the claim that this is what they are, the claim should be open for discussion, testing, and scrutiny.





I think that I see where you're coming from Matt, and I personally believe that there is more to it than just the physical.  Where I get hung up is when people say that there are evil entities roaming around wreaking havoc on a select few of us.  I don't give that idea any weight at all because I simply don't believe that evil itself is even real, and let me explain why.

When you really boil this down to the basic extremes, you have something of substance being measured against itself with varying degrees.

Consider ignorance versus knowledge.  Is ignorance an actual thing with substance?  Or is it merely the absence of knowledge?

Consider darkness versus light.  Is darkness a tangible thing?  Or is it merely the absence of light?

I view good and evil in the same way, where evil is merely a measurement of the intensity or lack of good.  Evil has no substance in and of itself.  Even actions and behavior that people typically associate with evil can be defined as twisted and misguided attempts to obtain or achieve qualities or attributes which are potentially positive and beneficial when found through otherwise legitimate means.

This is my opinion and I share it as such.  It is not an effort to convince or debate, but to simply provide a better understanding of where I'm coming from as an individual.





Tu quoque.  This is a logical fallacy, and it bears no direct relevance to the claims that there are evil entities possessing people, places, and things.  I sympathize with your personal experience with your doctor, don't get me wrong, but hopefully you can see that it isn't applicable in this debate.  The medical field opens itself to scrutiny in order to be validated and advanced through the scientific method.  Where are the standards by which exorcists and exorcisms should be measured?





I agree.
brilliant response A+


#1784    _Only

_Only

  • Member
  • 6,547 posts
  • Joined:24 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

  • Did you ever grow anything in the garden of your mind? You can grow ideas, in the garden of your mind. - Mr. Rogers

Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:54 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 12 November 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

You brought up many things worthy of full response, but I'm going to bed and I have a long week ahead now that the weekend is over.

I'd like to address this part for the moment though.

I've always sympathized with fringe and unsubstantiated points of view, but that doesn't make them valid.  On the same token, it doesn't make them invalid either.  But the fact that they are unsubstantiated does make them unproven, and I noticed that you decided to avoid the portion of my post which tried to make that distinction.

You mentioned *rules* as well, so I'll ask you what *rules* are fair in this kind of discussion?  Which *rules* will satisfy all parties?

It's an honest question.  What *rules* do you honestly think will be able to govern conclusive and universal understanding/agreement regarding such matters?

Cheers.

Well, no rules. As rules can't apply to both sides. I know this can't work most of the time, though, because people can't see two ways at once.

Posted Image

Quote

Tu quoque.  This is a logical fallacy, and it bears no direct relevance to the claims that there are evil entities possessing people, places, and things.  I sympathize with your personal experience with your doctor, don't get me wrong, but hopefully you can see that it isn't applicable in this debate.  The medical field opens itself to scrutiny in order to be validated and advanced through the scientific method.  Where are the standards by which exorcists and exorcisms should be measured?

No fallacy. I wasn't trying to discredit anything. You mentioned the real injustice behind this, of witch doctors and fairy tale believers denying victims 'real' medical attention, resulting in harm. But that 'real' medical attention is far from pure itself, has its own dangers, and can also be extremely dangerous. On one hand you can see a priest and have the witches burned out of you. On the other you can take a slowly debilitating pill to make the demons magically go away. I don't like either of these methods. Taking a dive inside yourself and getting to the root of the problem I feel is the best medicine. Which is why I put psychology on a pedestal above psychiatrists.

edit: witch doctors, not with doctors

Edited by _Only, 12 November 2012 - 05:02 PM.

I love to make mashups! Click here to hear!
I also love taking pictures! Click here to see!
I love to play drums, too! Whatever you do, don't click here!

#1785    _Only

_Only

  • Member
  • 6,547 posts
  • Joined:24 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

  • Did you ever grow anything in the garden of your mind? You can grow ideas, in the garden of your mind. - Mr. Rogers

Posted 12 November 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 12 November 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

I think your mistake here is that you're assuming this discussion is about 'everything' which is touted as 'spiritual.'  There is a big difference between 'spirituality' and the claims that there are evil entities which can haunt, hurt, damage, and possess people, places, and things.

No, we're talking about supposed negative spiritual entities, aka evil spirits, aka demons/ghosts/etc. Not everything spiritual. I disagree with the second sentence, as it relates to the people you disagree with in this thread.

I love to make mashups! Click here to hear!
I also love taking pictures! Click here to see!
I love to play drums, too! Whatever you do, don't click here!




1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users