851 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 06 June 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

Fair enough just thought ancient peoples would find use for knowing cycles for the purpose of farming or migrating. Someone went through a lot of effort to erect megaliths and while the calendar is just one function, for me it is the most likely. Either that or a quantum accelerator. Maybe just maybe there is some ritual function we haven't thought of but I am all out of ideas on that front.

I suppose the kind of stone plays a part, granite has unique vibrational properties but that is really stretching the conceivable. Maybe they were graves or prisoners were tied to the stones to make a sky burial.

"For me it is the most likely".

Why? Because you are being conditioned to believe it.

Just look at the stone circle in Nabta Playa or the one in Brazil:  even one stone aligning to a point in heaven (sun, moon, some star or some constellation) will convince a modern archeologist is must have been a calendar.

I don't say the ancients didn't make calendars using standing stones, but that doesn't mean all circular arrangements of standing stones are automatically calendars.

OK, I just don't buy it.

No farmer anywhere on this planet needs a huge circle of standing stones to know when to sow and when to harvest.

A quantum accelerator?? You're kidding me, right?

"Some ritual function", yes, we agree on that one. A circle is a basic pattern: put a stick in the ground, attach a rope to it, keep the outer end in your hands, and start walking. Your tracks in the ground will create a circle. Put a huge stone at equal distances, and there you have your 'calendar'.


EDIT:

Stonehenge is the prime example: it aligned to the movements of the sun and the moon, according to Thom.

Well, I posted this video earlier in this thread, but I think it's a good idea to post it again:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkVIMhUXnec"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=gkVIMhUXnec[/url]

And I hope you do remember the pics I posted in this thread about the ancient wooden teepee-like dwellings they found on the eastern coast of England and Scotland... People tend to create temples in the image of their usual houses, but much, much larger.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 June 2010 - 05:09 PM.

[SlimJim22]

I suppose it partly due to my conditioning as a welshman because the standing stones tend to be ten in number, not exclusively of course.

You didn't read the link I sent you on Stonehenge as a quantum accelerator but yes yes I was joking.

I was reading a little about the Maglamosian culture and how they invented the leister or trident. Funny that considering it is the main symbol of the dreaded Atlantis and can be found as far afield as the Indus valley as Shiva's trivula.

I just try and think how the ancient people would have passe d the time and counting the minutes or movements of the Sun is a good start but they obviously wouldn't need a megalithic site for this. Maybe they were adorned with temporary images or something and they doubled as an art gallery. Who knows?

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 06 June 2010 - 05:11 PM, said:

I suppose it partly due to my conditioning as a welshman because the standing stones tend to be ten in number, not exclusively of course.

You didn't read the link I sent you on Stonehenge as a quantum accelerator but yes yes I was joking.

I was reading a little about the Maglamosian culture and how they invented the leister or trident. Funny that considering it is the main symbol of the dreaded Atlantis and can be found as far afield as the Indus valley as Shiva's trivula.

I just try and think how the ancient people would have passed the time and counting the minutes or movements of the Sun is a good start but they obviously wouldn't need a megalithic site for this. Maybe they were adorned with temporary images or something and they doubled as an art gallery. Who knows?

I DID read both your links (the first one was a bit looong, I admit), but I didn't see anything about 'quantum accelerators'. Must have skipped that one, conditioned as I am, LOL !!

Hey, I didn't know about that Maglemosian trident??. Post a link or an image , please.

About circles made of standing stones: maybe it's nothing but a form of temple based on a usual wooden, circular dwelling, but enlarged (using huge stones) to create something awesome.

These huge stones will be all that's left after many millennia.

[Alien Being]

Abramelin, on 06 June 2010 - 03:06 PM, said:

Well, as you quoted an ancient post of mine, you wil also know that I have mentioned those Irish legends (the Book of Invasions, Lebhar na Gabhala or something) and the Tuatha De Danann, and the Fomorians, quite a few times in this thread...

But we should not forget that it were Irish Christian monks who were the first to put these legends and myths onto paper.

Another source is in ancient Tibeton manuscripts and was why the Nazis were so interested in the nation. Plato was not the only one.

Edited by Alien Being, 06 June 2010 - 06:46 PM.

[Abramelin]

Alien Being, on 06 June 2010 - 06:45 PM, said:

Another source is in ancient Tibetan manuscripts and was why the Nazis were so interested in the nation. Plato was not the only one.

Don't tell me.... it were those Stanzas of Dzyan, as quoted by Blavatsky, right? Those Stanzas no one else ever saw?

This is about Doggerland, the North Sea. Do you have any links to websites that have ancient Tibetan manuscripts online that mention drowned land in the North Sea?

Of more than 8000 years old?

.

EDIT

http://en.wikipedia....i/Book_of_Dzyan

Edited by Abramelin, 06 June 2010 - 07:57 PM.

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 06 June 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

I DID read both your links (the first one was a bit looong, I admit), but I didn't see anything about 'quantum accelerators'. Must have skipped that one, conditioned as I am, LOL !!

Hey, I didn't know about that Maglemosian trident??. Post a link or an image , please.

About circles made of standing stones: maybe it's nothing but a form of temple based on a usual wooden, circular dwelling, but enlarged (using huge stones) to create something awesome.

These huge stones will be all that's left after many millennia.

Uh, I meant to say particle accelerator not quantum. I was thinking about sam and Gushy I think. Here's the link.

http://www.west.net/...HYSICSOFPI.html

I like your idea about it forming some sort of structure. They were maybe like the foundation on to which a wooden structure was built. I think they would have found evidence at the site but it is a nice idea and it could have been a portable structure if the people were nomadic only returning to the site at a certain point in the year.

This PDF might interest you
http://docs.google.c...Tgjs-ecU1tVHxiA

This is where a read about it. Only wiki but I am struggling to find a decent image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leister

Edited by SlimJim22, 06 June 2010 - 09:25 PM.

[Alien Being]

Abramelin, on 06 June 2010 - 07:32 PM, said:

Don't tell me.... it were those Stanzas of Dzyan, as quoted by Blavatsky, right? Those Stanzas no one else ever saw?

This is about Doggerland, the North Sea. Do you have any links to websites that have ancient Tibetan manuscripts online that mention drowned land in the North Sea?

Of more than 8000 years old?

EDIT

http://en.wikipedia....i/Book_of_Dzyan

I think we all know civilization is going to have existed under the North Sea the question is how extensive and advanced was it. It is plausable that a super wave could have obliterated it.

[Abramelin]

Alien Being, on 06 June 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

I think we all know civilization is going to have existed under the North Sea the question is how extensive and advanced was it. It is plausable that a super wave could have obliterated it.

There was something there alright, but to call it a civilization?

And I guess you dropped the Stanza Dzyan thing?

What I did like about the Oera Linda Book was that it suggested that the North Sea was some kind of point of origin for pre-Germanic (and maybe pre-Celtic?) tribes, genetics and languages, and the way it got destroyed in the end.

But it could as well have been nothing but a hoax based on stories about the flooding of a large area in the North Sea, west of Denmark, and thousands of years later (Denmark was almost twice as wide up to 2500 years ago).

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 06 June 2010 - 09:24 PM, said:

Uh, I meant to say particle accelerator not quantum. I was thinking about sam and Gushy I think. Here's the link.

http://www.west.net/...HYSICSOFPI.html

I like your idea about it forming some sort of structure. They were maybe like the foundation on to which a wooden structure was built. I think they would have found evidence at the site but it is a nice idea and it could have been a portable structure if the people were nomadic only returning to the site at a certain point in the year.

This PDF might interest you
http://docs.google.c...Tgjs-ecU1tVHxiA

This is where a read about it. Only wiki but I am struggling to find a decent image.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leister

Thanks for the links Jim, especially the PDF.

The first one...hmmm... if someone uses capitals and 4 different colors on his or her website, I start thinking of straight jackets, lol !!

Btw, the 3d link doesn't tell me about tridents in connection with Doggerland (as tool or as symbol). Well, sure, they could have used those tridents to hunt fish; I have seen Indians use tridents in the Peruvian part of the Amazon basin.


EDIT:

Because I assumed you did not make that connection between the Maglemosian culture and the trident out of the blue, I Googled "Maglemosian" together with "trident", and came upon this site:

http://www.bibliotec...laneteng_03.htm

I thought, "OMG, Sitchin with his 12th Planet again.."

But..

What I found interesting - and something about which I have posted before - is this:

Though in time Hades and his region became a synonym for Hell, his original domain was a territory somewhere "far below," encompassing marshlands, desolate areas, and lands watered by mighty rivers. Hades was depicted as "the unseen" - aloof, forbidding, stern; unmoved by prayer or sacrifice. Poseidon, on the other hand, was frequently seen holding up his symbol (the trident).

And maybe you will remember: "Hell" was an ancient name for the North Sea ; you know, my posts about Nehalennia?. And if this thread is becoming to much to search for those posts, just Google "Hellweg" together with "Doggerland" and/or "North Sea".

Or check my latest summary: HERE , points 9 and 10.
.

Edited by Abramelin, 06 June 2010 - 11:44 PM.

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 06 June 2010 - 11:06 PM, said:

Thanks for the links Jim, especially the PDF.

The first one...hmmm... if someone uses capitals and 4 different colors on his or her website, I start thinking of straight jackets, lol !!

Btw, the 3d link doesn't tell me about tridents in connection with Doggerland (as tool or as symbol). Well, sure, they could have used those tridents to hunt fish; I have seen Indians use tridents in the Peruvian part of the Amazon basin.


EDIT:

Because I assumed you did not make that connection between the Maglemosian culture and the trident out of the blue, I Googled "Maglemosian" together with "trident", and came upon this site:

http://www.bibliotec...laneteng_03.htm

I thought, "OMG, Sitchin with his 12th Planet again.."

But..

What I found interesting - and something about which I have posted before - is this:

Though in time Hades and his region became a synonym for Hell, his original domain was a territory somewhere "far below," encompassing marshlands, desolate areas, and lands watered by mighty rivers. Hades was depicted as "the unseen" - aloof, forbidding, stern; unmoved by prayer or sacrifice. Poseidon, on the other hand, was frequently seen holding up his symbol (the trident).

And maybe you will remember: "Hell" was an ancient name for the North Sea ; you know, my posts about Nehalennia?. And if this thread is becoming to much to search for those posts, just Google "Hellweg" together with "Doggerland" and/or "North Sea".

Or check my latest summary: HERE , points 9 and 10.
.

yeah I wasn't looing for the trident connection just came across that wiki page but couldn't find much on the 'leister'. Yeah I like the Hell connection and how that was the original name for the north sea. I've also always wondered about Hellenic and Hellespont and how this fitted into the christian Hell.

Going back to the Nabta Playa and calendar I found this, again I wasn't looking for it but while looking up something else I found it.

What Brophy discovered was that the calendar circle at Nabta Playa was more than a calendar. It was also a star-viewing diagram. Three of the six stones in the center of the circle diagramed the stars of Orion's belt as it appeared on the meridian at the summer solstice between 6400 and 4900 BC. In other words, if a person stood at the north end of the meridian sight line and looked down on the stone diagram, he or she would see a representation of Orion's belt as it appeared in the sky just before sunrise. The other three stones chart Orion's head and shoulders as they appeared on the summer solstice meridian, at sunset, during the years around 16,500 BC--symmetrically opposite Orion's belt stars in 5000 BC. According to Brophy, both dates are the maximum and minimum of Orion's tilt angle in the sky. In other words, the stone diagram depicts the time, location, and tilting behavior of the constellation of Orion through its celestial cycle. More important, it illustrates how to visually understand the pattern of stones. If an astute, ancient sky-watcher from some foreign culture stumbled upon the Nabta calendar circle, even if he had no concept of the constellation of Orion, he would very likely have figured out the meaning of the diagram, as long as he was there during the diagram's window of functionality from 6400 BC to 4900 BC. Astonishing as it may be, the bedrock sculpture underneath "Complex Structure A" at Nabta Playa appears to be an accurate depiction of our Milky Way Galaxy, as it was oriented astronomically at a specific time: vernal equinox heliacal rising of the Galactic Center in 17,700 BC. According to Brophy, in a method developed by Schaefer in 1986, the probability that seven stars align with megaliths is less than 2 in 1,000,000. Strikingly, that is more than a thousand times as certain as the usual three standard deviations requirement for accepting a scientific hypothesis as valid. Even by conservative estimates, these are by far the most certain ancient megalithic astronomical alignments known in the world. (70)

Probably nothing  

http://humanpast.net...r/shelter6k.htm

Edited by SlimJim22, 07 June 2010 - 04:47 PM.

[Abramelin]

Quote

Astonishing as it may be, the bedrock sculpture underneath "Complex Structure A" at Nabta Playa appears to be an accurate depiction of our Milky Way Galaxy, as it was oriented astronomically at a specific time: vernal equinox heliacal rising of the Galactic Center in 17,700 BC

And all that from this:



Yeah, very probably nothing... come on, of course it isn't.

Just look at the picture.

"Hell" as the ancient name of the North Sea hasn't anything to do with Hellas (Greece), it's one of many spellings of the ancient name of the North Sea (also Hulda, Harla, Halla, and so on - search this forum, and you will eventually come to a page in this thread )


The Hellweg
By Joannes Richter

In the Middle Ages the Hellweg was an ancient east-west route through Germany, from Duisburg to Paderborn. The Hellweg, as an essential corridor that operated in overland transit of long-distance trade, was used by Charlemagne in his Saxon wars. This book reports the traces of trading routes called „Hellweg“ between Duisburg up to Frankfurt at the Oder and to Hamburg. Just like the Way of St. James the trading route Hellweg spreads towards the East in numerous directions. Obviously the Hellweg may have been called the Highway to Holland, respectively the Highway to Hell, which has been the name for the North Sea
http://www.lulu.com/..._search_results



A number of Hellweg-routes may be identified in Germany. The best-known „Hellweg“ is to be found as an east-west -route for a medieval Rhein-Elbe-interconnection along the hills in the middle of Germany. In particular the main route has been reserved for the traject between Duisburg and Paderborn. This west-falic route may have existed well over 5000 years, starting at the Rhine near Ruhrort at Duisburg, Essen, Dortmund, Unna, Werl, Soest, Erwitte, Geseke, Salzkotten, Paderborn up to Bad Driburg.
http://thehellweg.bl...an-hellweg.html

Or read this entire blog if you want to know more about Hell : http://thehellweg.blogspot.com/



Btw, that doesn't mean that the ancient Greeks could not have known about the North Sea. I am not talking about the voyages of Pytheas here - he did indeed visit the North Sea and the Baltic), or even the Phoenician Himilco; these guys visited the area much later.

There are those - and mind you, I am not well versed in Greek history or ancient Greek poetry - who think that Homer may not have been Greek at all, but that he originally came from northern Europe, and that the ancient Greeks borrowed from his myths.

If that's true, then "Hades", as the Underworld, could have been inspired by the North Sea area.

Interesting is also that it is said the the Styx river circled 9 times around Hades.

Huh?

The River Styx (Greek: Στύξ, Stux, also meaning "hate" and "detestation") (adjectival form: Stygian (pronounced /ˈstɪdʒi.ən/)) was a river in Greek mythology which formed the boundary between Earth and the Underworld (often called Hades which is also the name of this domain's ruler). It circles the Underworld nine times. The rivers Styx, Phlegethon, Acheron, and Cocytus all converge at the center of the underworld on a great marsh. The other important rivers of the underworld are Lethe and Eridanos, and Alpheus. The ferryman was called Charon.

http://www.answers.com/topic/styx

You gotta love that those spirals turn up at the most unexpected moments, LOL !!

But what amazes me is that not one artist (modern and ancient) depicts the Styx going nine times around Hades. Try and Google it, and you will see for yourself.



Hades, in Greek and Roman religion and mythology. 1 The ruler of the underworld: see Pluto. 2 The world of the dead, ruled by Pluto and Persephone, located either underground or in the far west beyond the inhabited regions. It was separated from the land of the living by the rivers Styx [hateful], Lethe [forgetfulness], Acheron [woeful], Phlegethon [fiery], and Cocytus [wailing]. The newly arrived dead were ferried across the Styx by the avaricious old ferryman Charon, whom they paid with the coin that was placed in their mouths when they were buried. Unauthorized spirits who tried to enter or leave Hades were challenged by the fearful dog Cerberus. The honey cake that the Greeks buried with the dead was intended to quiet him. All the dead drank of the river of forgetfulness. The judges of the dead—Minos, Aeacus, and Rhadamanthus—assigned to each soul its appropriate abode. The virtuous and the heroic were rewarded in the Elysian fields; wrongdoers were sent to Tartarus; and most wandered as dull shadows among fields of asphodel.

Hades, Abode of the Dead
In older Greek myths, Hades is the misty and gloomy abode of the dead, where all mortals go. Later Greek philosophy showed the idea that all mortals are judged after death and are either rewarded or cursed.
There were several sections of Hades, including the Elysian Fields (contrast the Christian Paradise or Heaven), and Tartarus, (compare the Christian Hell). Greek mythographers were not perfectly consistent about the geography of the afterlife. A contrasting myth of the afterlife concerns the Garden of the Hesperides, often identified with the Isles of the Blessed, where the blessed heroes may dwell.

http://www.reference.com/browse/Hades

Edited by Abramelin, 07 June 2010 - 06:36 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 06 June 2010 - 11:06 PM, said:

http://www.bibliotec...laneteng_03.htm

What I found interesting - and something about which I have posted before - is this:

Though in time Hades and his region became a synonym for Hell, his original domain was a territory somewhere "far below," encompassing marshlands, desolate areas, and lands watered by mighty rivers. Hades was depicted as "the unseen" - aloof, forbidding, stern; unmoved by prayer or sacrifice. Poseidon, on the other hand, was frequently seen holding up his symbol (the trident).

The way the area of Hades is being described, "far below," encompassing marshlands, desolate areas, and lands watered by mighty rivers", and that it was "located either underground or in the far west beyond the inhabited regions" ( http://www.reference.com/browse/Hades  ) , together with it being equal to Hell, which is also an ancient name of the Norh Sea (see former posts), makes me think of Doggerland.

Doggerland was a land of many lakes, rivers and marshes, but no doubt it was an area of marshes, mud, or simply, a desolate place after it got hit by the Storegga Slide.

But before that it was - according to scientists - nothing short of a heaven on earth for the people living back then.

And lo and behold, Hades also is an area which incorporated the socalled "Elyseum Fields" or the "Isles of the Blessed".



But according to another view, the realm of Hades was beyond the ocean in the far west, which to the Greeks was always the region of darkness and death, as the east of light and life. This is the view of Hades presented in the Odyssey. Besides this gloomy region, we find in another passage of the Odyssey a picture of Elysium, a happy land at the ends of the earth, where rain and snow fall not, but the cool west wind blows and men live at ease. After Homer this happy land, the abode of the good after death, was known as the Isles of the Blest. But in the oldest Greek mythology the" house of Hades" was simply the home of the dead, good and bad alike, who led a dim and shadowy reflection of life on earth.

http://www.therivers...net/hades.shtml

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elysium


EDIT (my second name, lol) :

From my post here:

Although only speculation John Lorimer's ideas are based upon sound evidence and are tentatively shared by both historians and archaeologists. It is quite possible to conclude that what is appearing out of the peat at Holme is something more than just a simple circle constructed of ancient timbers. It may well be that Seahenge, Geoff Needham's circle, the wickerwork enclosure, the causeways, the riverbeds and the spirit goods all form part of one massive spiritual monument. Like Stonehenge, Avebury and the stone avenues that cover the Wiltshire countryside the area around Holme may have been just as large and just as important. Perhaps it was the religious site for the Bronze Age peoples of East Anglia: a place where they carried their important dead. A ritualistic landscape where the sea met the land and the bodies were ferried across to the sacred island in the marsh; an isle of the dead.


The remnants of Doggerland (the present Dogger Bank) after the deluge as "Hades", an "Isle of the Dead", marshes, rivers, mist and fog??

Hades, a god accompanied by Cerberus, a 3 headed dog... Nehalennia, a North Sea seagoddess accompanied by a dog and with a ship being crushed under her left foot?

The river Styx, circling Hades 9 times? So what's that then? A spiralling river around an isle of the dead? Remember what I posted about a spiralling comet impacting into the north of the North Sea (west of Norway, causing the Storegga Slide), ancient petroglyphs depicting a huge spiral in the North Sea?

If Sitchin and a Von Daniken can do it, so can I.

As long as I have enough booze.

Heh.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 07 June 2010 - 09:48 PM.

[Abramelin]

I have mentioned Juergen Spanuth a couple of times in this thread.

He was convinced that Atlantis City was nothing but Hel(i)goland, and that the whole of Atlantis was the area now occupied by Denmark, and the southern part of Sweden, and the submerged areas in between. And he also said it happened around 1500 BC, and that the people fleeing the area when it got flooded ended up in Egypt as one of the Sea Peoples.

Well, I do have 'some' problems with that, but nevertheless he had an interesting theory.

And here is an extract from Juergen Spanuth's "Atlantis of the North"




Amazingly, the assertion has been made that the area between
Heligoland and Eiderstedt has been under the sea for 6000 years; and
that consequently the island Abalus/Basileia/Farria/Fositesland could
never have lain there (Gripp 1953). This is contradicted by the
researches of all genuine experts in the geology and oceanography of
this area, whose results may now be summarized.

The Kiel geologist E. Wasmund placed the amber island 'off the coast
of Eiderstedt, where tertiary clays overlay amber- and carbon-bearing
sands' (1937, p. 36). The geologists W. Wolff .and H.C. Reck, also
from Kiel, wrote: 'One may well accept that somewhere between
Heligoland and Eiderstedt lies the ancient amber land ... so it is
also probable that in this area lies the island Abalus of the
ancients' (1922, p. 360). O. Pratje, one of the greatest experts on
the geology of Heligoland, wrote: 'But Heligoland remained joined on
the east side to the mainland, from which it projected as a peninsula.
Its submersion did not occur all at once, but piecemeal; this can be
seen from the series of underwater terraces, the remains of former
shorelines. . . The Stone Age and Bronze Age people, whose remains
have been found on Heligoland,must have reached here dryshod, without
having to cross any wide sea inlets. For at that time the island was
joined to the mainland'. (1953, p. 57f.) C. Delf, an outstanding
expert on the history of North Frisia, wrote that the island of
Abalus/Basileia lay 'east of Heligoland, but 15-20km west of St Peter'
(1936, p. 126).

R. Hennig looked for the island, on the evidence of the ancient
authors, 'halfway between Heligoland and the mainland' (1941, p. 955).
Finally, the prehistorian C. Ahrens has stated on the evidence of many
geological, oceanolographic and archaeological investigations: 'At all
events some particularly high-standing parts of the south ridge must
have remained as islands, whose traces can still be recognized on the
Steingrund, the 'Loreley bank', and near Oldenswort - today part of
the mainland of Eiderstedt.' He further stated that, 'This chain of
islands resisted the attacks'of the sea for a considerable time, in
places perhaps to the frontier of historic times' (1966, p. 38-9).
But there is more. There is reliable evidence to show that this island
was still inhabited up to medieval times. I have already described
how, after the catastrophic flooding of 1220 BC, the island
re-surfaced when the sea retreated during the Iron Age. It will be
shown below (page 250) that it was visited by Pytheas of Massilia in
about 350 BC and its position precisely described. I have also
described the reports of the early Christian missionaries, and of Adam
of Bremen.

In papal documents from the period 1065-1158, 'Farria' is mentioned as
a bishop's see (Carstens 1965, p. 52ff.). Eilbert, for example, is
described as 'Farriensis Episcopus'. In the year 1065, Pope Alexander
wrote to the bishops of Denmark, mentioning that Archbishop Adalbert
of Hamburg had complained of Bishop Eilbertus, 'Farriensis Episcopus',
who had failed to appear at synods for three years and had committed
various offences. At the same time Adalbert wrote to King Sweyn (or
Svein) II of Denmark, to a'sk him to break off all communication with
Eilbert of Farria and to take over the collection of church revenues
(Diplomatarium Danicum, 1963, No. 5).

The island of Farria is also mentioned later. About 1193, a Bishop Orm
'Faroensis'1 is named next to Bishop Hermann of Schleswig
(Diplomatarium Danicum, 1963, No. 77). The Emperor Frederick
Barbarossa declared in a deed of 1158 that the privileges which were
accorded to the bishop of Hamburg were to be extended and Hamburg was
to be the metropolitan see for Farria also. In the documents of the
time, 'Farria' and 'Frisia' alternate.

Laur has given it as his opinion that 'Farria' is to be understood as
the Faeroes (1951, p. 416ff.). But this is impossible. The Faeroes do
not lie 'in the mouth of the Elbe', 'across from Hadeln', as Adam of
Bremen described the site of Farria. They have never been inhabited by
Frisians, nor are they 'on the boundary between the Frisians and the
Danes', nor(as the scholiast stated) 'visible from an island at the
mouth of the Eider'. Besides, the history of the bishops of the
Faeroes is perfectly well known. The first one was called Gudemund; he
died in 1116; his successor Matthew in 1157. And the missionaries
Wulfram, Willibrord and Liudger were never on the Faeroes.
So we have evidence from Papal and Imperial documents from the
eleventh and twelfth centuries that the island of Farria/Heiligland
existed at that time and had by no means sunk into the sea 6000 years
previously.

It is most probable that Heimreich used older documents now lost for
his North Frisian Chronicle of 1666 when, in the passage I have
already quoted (page 47), he stated that on 'Siidstrand' or
'Heilig-land' (which he elsewhere calls 'Heiligland or Farria insula')
there were nine parishes 'anno 1030', but that after the great floods
of 1202 and 1216 'but two churches remained'. According to Heimreich
these last two churches finally disappeared after the 'great deluge'
of 1362. It appears from a letter of indulgence of the Council of
Basle in the year 1442, that during the preceding period on the west
coast of Schleswig no fewer than sixty churches had been flooded over
(Peters 1929, p. 542). At that time (1362) according to the Dithmarsch
chronicler Neocorus, who was preacher in Busum from 1590 to 1624,
'between flood and ebbtide 200,000 folk were drowned' (1.313).
On the oldest extant map of Heligoland, we find written to the east of
it, 'Here is a stone-work that stretches one and a half miles into the
sea, where in past time, they say, seven churches stood. They can
still be seen at low water.' The 'mile' here is the Danish mile of
7.42km. So in 1570 ruins could still be seen at low water 11-12 km
east of Heligoland. W. Stephe, who studied this map (1930, p. 96)
remarked that the tradition of the seven churches is found also' in
Rantzau and other sixteenth-century writers. Caspar Danckwerth, the
learned doctor and Burgomaster of Husum, whose work describing the
country was 'unequalled in its time for scope and accuracy' (Hedemann
1926, p. 878) confirmed these reports, and said that even at high
water one could walk eastwards from Heligoland 'for a mile [7.42km] on
the sand'.

In King Waldemar II's 'Earth Book' of 1231, we find: 'Eydersteth and
Lundebiarghaereth, whence the King is used to cross over to Utland'.
So Utland, or Siidstrand, between Eiderstedt and Heligoland, must have
been large enough in 1231 for King Waldemar to find accommodation
there for a whole army.

In the Eiderstedt Chronicle, which records many events from the period
between 1103 and 1547, we read under the year 1338: 'Here began Utland
first to break in two, and all the dykes to break up' (Peters 1929, p.
581). There is an old map which must have been drawn before 1634
because it shows the island of'Strand' which was destroyed in that
year.

On it is written:' Universa haec regio Frisica Septentrionalis
olimfuit terra . . . in tot partes disrupta? ('This whole region of
North Frisia was once land, but has been broken up into many parts').
Johannes Petrejus, 'whose notes are fully confirmed by documents in
the Royal Archives at Copenhagen' (Panten 1976), reported in the year
1597 that in an old missal of the church of St Peter, the island was
'called Siiderstrand', but that it had 'now disappeared'. These and
many other pieces of evidence show that in the early Middle Ages, an
island or a chain of islands still lay between Heligoland and
Eiderstedt, 'of which part was of old called Utland or Siiderstrand,
that once reached as far as Heligoland' (Heimrefch 166b, 80).
The last remains of these islands must, as Heimreich says, have sunk
in the 'great deluge' of 1362, which is mentioned not only by Neocorus
but by the Eiderstedt Chronicle: 'Anno 1362 at midnight there came the
greatest of floods; then were drowned most of the folk of Utland'
(Peters 1929, p. 581).

A fatal ignorance of these and many other historical and geological
researches is shown in Gripp's assertion that the 'Area around
Heligoland sank slowly into the sea about 5000 BC. The Neolithic
remains that have been found on Heligoland are simply the remains of
hunting expeditions, for it was only visited from time to time by
hunters. A Bronze Age settlement there is not indicated.' In answer I
refer him to the many Bronze Age finds, and the thirteen Bronze Age
grave-mounds, which 'show the existence of a considerable settlement
on Heligoland up to the period 1550-1300 BC' (Zylman 1952, p. 39;
Ahrens 1966, p. 244).

Equally imbecile - in the face of the many catastrophic floods of
which we have not only documentary evidence but traces in the shape of
finds from drowned woods and settlements - are Wetzel's assertion that
'our geological evidence indicates gradual, on the whole
disturbance-free, processes', and his talk of'Spanuth's outdated
catastrophe-theory'; and the appeals to 'special researches' whose
results are not available and which in spite of repeated invitations
he cannot produce.

These two gentlemen know nothing of the 'Steingrund', about which they
asked, and nothing about the undersea ridge between Heligoland and
Eiderstedt, which was formerly known as the 'Siiderstrand'. This
underwater ridge is still clearly visible on the isobath chart of the
sea between Heligoland and Eiderstedt.

http://www.archivum....axon-times.html




These are the 'walls' he saw:


........OK, the pic doesnt show up (what's new, eh?), but here's the link:

http://1.bp.blogspot.../Atlantis 3.jpg


I uploaded it to a picture host, and here it is:



And it's from http://punkadiddle.b...is-mystery.html

That site is not too friendly about Spanuth and his theory...

EDIT:

Concidering the geology of Helgoland, I think it may indeed have been an important geological feature of Doggerland, near the mouth of the Elbe river during the Mesolithic, maybe even a harbor. Mind you, the Elbe runs to the center of Europe, and it starts but a short distance of the Danube river.

Edited by Abramelin, 09 June 2010 - 08:55 PM.

[Abramelin]

As some of you will remember, I have talked about a hypothetical comet that may have impacted into the northern part of the North Sea (west of Norway) and caused the Storegga Slide, which in turn caused a giant tsunami and the deluge that swept away the remaining parts of Doggerland, around 6100 BC.

What I found sort of surprising is that around the present North Sea (and mainly in Scotland)  there are many petroglyphs in the form of spirals, labyrinths and concentric circles, often accompanied by socalled 'cup marks'.

My idea was, that that hypothetical comet may have been a socalled 'spiralling' comet like the Hale-Bopp comet, but very close to earth and creating a huge spectacle in the ancient skies. The spectacle must have been nothing short of scary, certainly if the center of that spectacle - the nucleus itself - finally impacted into the North Sea. The heavenly spectacle together with the impact and the subsequent deluge of Doggerland may have been the reason why the pictographs I mentioned are to be found all over the world, but especially in Scotland.

Then I discovered that it was Juergen Spanuth (in his "Atlantis of the North") mentioned a comet that impacted into the North Dea; he called it "Ragnarok" and "Sekhmet".
My problem - aside from most of the rest of his theory - is that it must have happened around 1500 BC. As far as I knew then, there was no comet/meteorite that impacted around 1500 BC.

Well, I think I was wrong....

Recently someone started a thread about the meaning and history of the swastika in this forum. As far as I knew, the swastika was an ancient solar symbol, but I wasn't sure, so I read the wiki page about it.

Heh, that was kind of a revelation... of all people, Carl Sagan had a theory about the origin of the swastika symbol:



Sagan reproduces an ancient Chinese manuscript (the Book of Silk) that shows comet tail varieties: most are variations on simple comet tails, but the last shows the comet nucleus with four bent arms extending from it, recalling a swastika. Sagan suggests that in antiquity a comet could have approached so close to Earth that the jets of gas streaming from it, bent by the comet's rotation, became visible, leading to the adoption of the swastika as a symbol across the world.[4]

-
This swastika like rendering is labeled ?? (? dí "long tailed pheasant" ? xing "star") and its caption is the lengthiest of all comets depicted, because only the swastika comet is said to have been seen in all four seasons: "Appearing in spring means good harvest, in summer means drought, in autumn means flood, in winter means small battles." [ Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan, 1985]

-
Carl Sagan in his book Comet (1985) pointed out that an outgassing comet that produced a pinwheel appearance to someone looking down the comet's axis of rotation would appear very different to an observer viewing the same comet along its equator.

http://en.wikipedia....origin_theories

More:


In 1985 the renowned astronomer Carl Sagan drew attention to the comet observed by the ancient Chinese in 1486 BC, proposing that it had to have been one of the most spectacular seen in recorded history.  The two most magnificent comets since the birth of modern astronomy were Halley's Comet when it appeared in 1910 which had five tails, and the seven-tailed De Cheseaux's Comet of 1744.   The comet the Chinese recorded in 1486 BC was far bigger: it appeared as a massive sphere of light, had ten tails, and lit up half the sky.   What no one seems to have appreciated before is that this comet, which would have been visible throughout  much on the northern hemisphere, may well have inspired civilizations across the world to adopt their new gods.

The seven-tailed De Cheseaux's Comet of 1744 was the largest recorded since the birth of modern astronomy.  The ten-tailed comet of 1486 BC, however, was far more impressive.

http://www.grahamphi...eden/eden_4.htm


More:

Historical detective Graham Phillips presented his thesis that a comet, which came close to Earth around 1500 BC, had global effects on civilizations. The comet, according to ancient Chinese records, arrived in 1486 BC and appeared as being eight times the size of the full moon. It's tail was described as hair-like.

Phillips theorized that parts of the comet's tail may have broken off and released chemicals into the atmosphere which increased aggressive behavior. A number of relatively stable civilizations were suddenly plunged into war at this time, he cited. For example, Egypt's Pharaoh decided to invade half of the Middle East, massive civil wars took place in China, and Britain's Stonehenge cultures began to fight amongst themselves.


He also noted that monotheism temporarily emerged in a number of locations such as China and Egypt during this same time frame. It could have been brought about by the worship of the comet in the sky, seen as a singular object, he explained. Comet 12P/Pons-Brooks is a likely candidate for this object, and its due to return in 2024, but it's not known yet how close it will pass to the Earth, Phillips reported. He also discussed his research into ancient relics such as the Holy Grail.

http://www.coasttoco...show/2007/10/08


Some links to the book of this author :

End Of Eden (Paperback)
by Graham Phillips (Author)

http://www.amazon.ca...=cm_cr-mr-title

http://www.amazon.co...n/dp/1591430690



OK, nice theory, but what interests me is that comet alone. The problem for my theory  - well, idea - is that it happened too late, around 1500 BC. Spanuth would have loved it, of course.

The comet in question is said to be the 12P/Pons-Brooks comet that returns every 71 years, but every 3500 years (or so it is claimed...) it comes extremely close to earth. The first time it's appearence was recorded was around 1500 BC, the next time will be around 2024 AD (damn, not 2012, but ok, the doomsday addicts will have something new to be afraid of).

If we now add up 3500 to 1500, we get 5000 BC, but alas that's still too far away from 6100 BC, but if it's path cannot be calculated accurately for thousands of years ago, there is still a possibility it's true and closest earlier appearence in the skies happened around 6100 BC.

I hope I find something else to help me Sitchinize the facts to corroborate my , ahem, theory...

Edited by Abramelin, 26 June 2010 - 02:08 PM.

[SlimJim22]

I just posted this link in OLB thread but it shows the oldest known swatika dating to approx 5,500bce so we are getting closer.

http://www.omniglot....iting/vinca.htm

Very plausable what you are saying and to Sitchinize it all you need is for the orbit to be off set by a coming together with another body. It's always spirals so maybe there is a increasing orbit length with about 1,600 being the last date but an orbit of 4,400 years would get us to 6,000bce and at this time (for some reason) the orbit reduced to 3,600 that will takes us about to about 2,200, which fits that dutch scientists reinterpretation of the mayan longcount. After that the orbit will shrink to prehaps 1,800 years with the comet getting smaller on each passing until it disintegrates completely.

Check this also. You have lumionisty and then blackness as found in nigh all myths and religions but it well correspond to comets. WE may have discuessed this all before

http://shadowlight.gydja.com/surt.html