313 replies to this topic

[HavocWing]

Setton, on 02 October 2012 - 11:14 PM, said:

Good to know it works both ways.

But I don't go around telling people that they are going to hell.  So it doesn't work both ways.

Edited by HavocWing, 03 October 2012 - 12:20 AM.

[Setton]

HavocWing, on 03 October 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

But I don't go around telling people that they are going to hell.  So it doesn't work both ways.

But some atheists go around telling people they are wrong and insane for believing. So yes it does.

[Armchair Educated]

Bling, on 02 October 2012 - 08:00 PM, said:

I wasn't just talking just about this forum, I am talking about society in general. I really haven't the time to finds quotes to satisfy you, find them yourself. Some christians have preached on here, and in society in general they will critisise an atheist for not believing in something they hold firm. I did when I was a christian.

typo

im satisfied in general, i was just proving a point that you choose to take literally. out of the forum you will only interact with people you choose to interact with, im sure there are not that many christians saying your going to hell. just as there are not that many atheists who choose to insult god infront of me, there fore making have to come out and admit that im a christian so they will be more polite. i have never said your going to hell and not many people on here have said it either, unless they have been insulted alot. just as an atheist in your eyes who becomes a christian was never really an atheist, a christian that became a atheist was never really a christian. p.s if you dont have the time to back up a statement dont make it in the first place.

[Colonel Rhuairidh]

Bling, on 02 October 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

And what about the none militant atheists? All you've done here is turn my point around. Don't you think being told you are a sinner and going to hell feels just the same as being shouted at?

The number of Religious people who'd think that is a very, very small minority. The same might perhaps be said of the militant Atheists, but, perhaps like the hardline Religious people, they just make themselves heard to a disproportionate extent, who can say? really, I think militant Atheists are hardly any different from religious fundamentalists, and if they do get a hard time, then that's perhaps why.

[markdohle]

Bling, on 02 October 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

There are alot of different topics on this forum and throughout society, in which people cast their opinion on something 'unexplained'. I've seen people imply that ghosts, UFO's astral projection and cryptids don't exist, and those who believe in them are wrong or deluded. So when an atheist says to a religious person that they are wrong or deluded, why are they vilified? Why then are they told they are going to hell, deluded, evil, enemies of the faith, so readily by some believers? It seems that some topics are ok to mock but religion is a no no. I think that's unfair. I hate seeing people have their beliefs of UFO's, cryptids and the paranormal cast aside by many and pigeonholed as ridiculous, but yet it happens - not just on this forum but throughout society.
So why is it that when atheists stick up for their beliefs and talk about them, do they often get attacked by believers? Is it ok to mock someone who believes in UFO's but not someone who believes in god? And if so, why?

I don't send anyone to hell ;-).  We all get our licks, the so called new-atheism is just as bad as any fundie religious or ideological group.  Atheist are just human, don't have many answers, if any, and at times think more of themselves than they should....well some of them, just like some in any group.  Like I said they are normal human beings, who jump on others and get jumped on themselves from time to time.  I find it interesting that when a fundie Christian becomes an atheist they stay the same, dogmatic and contemptuous of those who still believe.  As many atheist when they leave the fold many fall into fundementlist churches.  Simple answeres mabye, don't know.  In any case, again, most fundie's that I know are good gentle people....it is the out spoken that draw the fire on everyon in their group, be it atheist, believer of political.

Peace
Mark

[Mr Walker]

Peope disagree about a lot of things but hings which go to the heart of who we are /identity etc are held and defended more passionatley  So homosexuality and religiousity are always hot topics
I point out to people what i know from experience and personal evidences. Sometimes that means telling people that their own (dis) beliefs are wrong. But i always add that, when it comes to beliefs, people should hold that which works for them regardless of truth. After all they may not have met god and thus logically can disbelieve in him.

It is not my job to disabuse them of their disbeleif.  But it is my right to point out what i know through experience to be true. Atheists do not like to hear that a eral and powerful god has a physical and indendent existenc.e First it contradicts their beleif system and seems like an attack on them and their intelligence.Ssecond it has many implications for them even if they have not encountered god. But that is not my problem. It is something each individual must deal with.

Ps i dont tell people they are going to hell. Hell does not exis.t But i do point out thatl all humans are self aware and know the consequences of each thought and action. That makes them persoanlly and individually resposnible for the outcome of everything they do And knowing that should be reaosn enoguh to act rationally responsibly ethially morally and compassionately.

Edited by Mr Walker, 04 October 2012 - 06:51 AM.

[Arbenol68]

Mr Walker, on 04 October 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

Atheists do not like to hear that a eral and powerful god has a physical and indendent existenc.e First it contradicts their beleif system and seems like an attack on them and their intelligence.

To be fair, that contradicts the belief of many - theist and atheist alike.

[Mr Walker]

Arbenol68, on 04 October 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

To be fair, that contradicts the belief of many - theist and atheist alike.

True, but it is even more incompatible with atheism. Even theists with a different view of the nature of god tend to a mindset that includes god in their considerations and actions. They calculate the existence of some form of god into their word view.

Atheists deliberately calculate god out of their world view, and out of consideration in their ethics, moralities, associated beliefs and actions. Thus, for an atheist to be told that there IS a real physical god is more uncomfortabl e and confronting, than for a theist who considers god existent but, say, uninvolved with everyday mundane affairs of humans, and who at least has a theoretical accpetance of gods existence in some form. In other words, the psychological ramifications of  the existence of a physical and real god are greater for an atheist than for a  "philosophical " theist.

[Arbenol68]

I don't agree entirely with you there, Mr Walker. If god is a real and evolved part of our universe this would turn over a lot of religious dogma - especially that god was the prime cause of all creation.

However, I take your point on a general principle.

[Michelle]

747400, on 03 October 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

The number of Religious people who'd think that is a very, very small minority. The same might perhaps be said of the militant Atheists, but, perhaps like the hardline Religious people, they just make themselves heard to a disproportionate extent, who can say? really, I think militant Atheists are hardly any different from religious fundamentalists, and if they do get a hard time, then that's perhaps why.

A lot of us Atheists don't want to be associated with The Freedom From Religion Foundation any more than Christians want to be associated with the Phelps can. They reflect badly on the rest of us. The last thing I would want to do is try and tell anyone how they should live their life and I think the Atheists that try to convert people are hypocrites.

[Mr Walker]

Arbenol68, on 05 October 2012 - 01:37 AM, said:

I don't agree entirely with you there, Mr Walker. If god is a real and evolved part of our universe this would turn over a lot of religious dogma - especially that god was the prime cause of all creation.

However, I take your point on a general principle.

There are many logical and physical reasons why a real physical god cannot be the prime cause of creation, or even truly omniscient or omnipotent. The main one is the unanswerable question or questions eg. Not just;  how did such a god come into existence, but; how did it achieve self aware sapience and all that entails? In the real world there must be real, physical logical and scientific answers to those questions, not just theological or metaphysical ones.Those reasons have been pretty thoroughly thrashed out here and elsewhere.



  Sapience is an evolved property, and a god with self aware sapience, therefore, must have evolved that property during its own evolution. For forty years my  mind has had to face the fact that such a real and physical god exists. No room for belief for disbelief in knowledge although room for plenty of questions

.That does influence my thinking on the nature of god. Since you  (generic) don't have the luxury of constructing god as you would like or hope him to be, you have to examine god as it is, using the same tools and methods you use to examine any other physical thing.
But unless you have knowledge of god, you are forced to chose between belief /disbelief, or suspension of belief/disbelief. Within a belief in god, any construct is theoretically possible, and people tend to create perceptions or  even actual constructs of god, "to fit" their wider beliefs, values, ethics and moralities. Otherwise, they do not fit comfortably with their god.

Edited by Mr Walker, 05 October 2012 - 08:36 AM.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

I would think that generally on this site atheists are not given a hard time, partly perhaps because such sites as this will attract a higher number of them. It is in real life that problems occur. In western democracies theists see themselves as under attack from a particularly noisy and intolerant form of atheism. Yet curiously in Russia it was announced a few days back that the Church is to be allowed to participate in political affairs. This is disturbing as some, as yet fringe elements, call for death for various groups, gays for instance, and infact even those they regard as pagans, as they see paganism as satanism. I can see why atheists shout loudly though. Looking at the horrors of 20th century it can be seen that a return to the events of the link I give can easily happen.
http://en.wikipedia....urg_witch_trial
There is no limit to the power of fear and hysteria, and I have to say that these forces are usually raised by the religions of the book, or at least two of them, as Jews are often the victims.

[markdohle]

Michelle, on 05 October 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

A lot of us Atheists don't want to be associated with The Freedom From Religion Foundation any more than Christians want to be associated with the Phelps can. They reflect badly on the rest of us. The last thing I would want to do is try and tell anyone how they should live their life and I think the Atheists that try to convert people are hypocrites.

We all have the same frustrations my friend.  I just ignore village atheist, let them rant, the way I do people from Westboro Baptist church.

Peace
Mark

[markdohle]

Atentutankh-pasheri, on 07 October 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

I would think that generally on this site atheists are not given a hard time, partly perhaps because such sites as this will attract a higher number of them. It is in real life that problems occur. In western democracies theists see themselves as under attack from a particularly noisy and intolerant form of atheism. Yet curiously in Russia it was announced a few days back that the Church is to be allowed to participate in political affairs. This is disturbing as some, as yet fringe elements, call for death for various groups, gays for instance, and infact even those they regard as pagans, as they see paganism as satanism. I can see why atheists shout loudly though. Looking at the horrors of 20th century it can be seen that a return to the events of the link I give can easily happen.
http://en.wikipedia....urg_witch_trial
There is no limit to the power of fear and hysteria, and I have to say that these forces are usually raised by the religions of the book, or at least two of them, as Jews are often the victims.

Religion and politics should never marry, the will to power is too great and it will attract power hungry people who want high office and want to control.  Politics by itself is bad enough, but with religion, HOLY SH-T!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe religious people should speak up when it comes to politics, but not as a ruling factor.  Force never works, never will, at least in the long run.  Look at the communist movement, again those in power wanted more.  In the end, everything was lost with a great loss of life.

Peace
mark

[markdohle]

Mr Walker, on 05 October 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

There are many logical and physical reasons why a real physical god cannot be the prime cause of creation, or even truly omniscient or omnipotent. The main one is the unanswerable question or questions eg. Not just;  how did such a god come into existence, but; how did it achieve self aware sapience and all that entails? In the real world there must be real, physical logical and scientific answers to those questions, not just theological or metaphysical ones.Those reasons have been pretty thoroughly thrashed out here and elsewhere.



  Sapience is an evolved property, and a god with self aware sapience, therefore, must have evolved that property during its own evolution. For forty years my  mind has had to face the fact that such a real and physical god exists. No room for belief for disbelief in knowledge although room for plenty of questions

.That does influence my thinking on the nature of god. Since you  (generic) don't have the luxury of constructing god as you would like or hope him to be, you have to examine god as it is, using the same tools and methods you use to examine any other physical thing.
But unless you have knowledge of god, you are forced to chose between belief /disbelief, or suspension of belief/disbelief. Within a belief in god, any construct is theoretically possible, and people tend to create perceptions or  even actual constructs of god, "to fit" their wider beliefs, values, ethics and moralities. Otherwise, they do not fit comfortably with their god.

If what you say is true, then you are in communication with just another life form, though more powerful and intelligent, however not God by a long stretch.  You are saying creation preceded God, so God was created by creation????  Backwards I believe.

Edited by markdohle, 07 October 2012 - 02:02 PM.