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Japan will never stop whaling, minister says


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#121    Sakari

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 12:34 AM

View PostWearer of Hats, on 06 March 2013 - 08:10 AM, said:

Or as in my case, cynicism and sarcasm.


same here :)

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#122    Yamato

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:52 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 06 March 2013 - 03:02 PM, said:

This is where I will have to respectfully disagree with you. Unless one is a vegan and does not wear or eat any animal products (no leather shoes, leather car seats, etc), they do not have the right to complain about one person eating a certain species of animal over another.

About the law issue, as of right now, its technically not illegal what the whalers are doing (even if they are using loopholes, etc to get around the laws - it is not illegal). However, what the S-S is doing is illegal... attacking another ship is a crime. Simple as that.

And the cynically (this is mostly sarcasm, this last comment) part of me wants to say maybe we need another major die-off. Every time they've happened in the past, life then flourishes anew in newer, seemingly more interesting forms. :whistle:
Who are vegans and who aren't is irrelevant to whether species can be farmed or not.   That isn't the acid-test to determine right from wrong here in response to what I've said, which was in response to the predictable farm animals analogy.  If people are eating farmed meat in no risk of extinction, they aren't somehow removed from this debate because they're sinners according to the tenets of veganism.  Eating farmed meat doesn't touch the difference that matters in my statement, it confers with it.  

Who has the "right to complain" is your opinion only, and your opinion violates the rule of law in my country I'm happy to say.  And no, what Sea Shepherd does is legal in the spirit of the law, and there is no law much less jurisdiction you can cite to show me what laws they're breaking.  What the Japanese are doing is illegal in the spirit of the law, but they're getting away with it with a loophole in the letter of the law.   At least as far as the bureaucracy is concerned.

Farmed meat is deleterious to our planet's ecosystem too; but the only thing it has to do with extinction is maintaining a larger population of humans and their pets to eat, burn, fart and reproduce themselves until we're consuming so many resources there aren't enough left for the species that aren't being farmed.   To be crystal clear about this:  We take care of our own food.  That's the last thing that's in danger of extinction.

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#123    Bavarian Raven

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 02:56 PM

Quote

And no, what Sea Shepherd does is legal in the spirit of the law

So in which country is Piracy legal? (other then Somalia)

Quote

That's the last thing that's in danger of extinction.

Yam, your argument is still maintaining that its ok to kill and eat one species, but not another. You are still implying that one animal species has more of a right to be free/not be eaten then another. By your logic, it should be perfectly ok for the Japanese to continue whaling species of whales that are not endangered. One species of animal does not have more of a right to live than another.

Edited by Bavarian Raven, 07 March 2013 - 02:56 PM.


#124    Coffey

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:13 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 27 February 2013 - 10:50 AM, said:

I am a hunter myself,but there are enough deer and turkeys around for everyone as long as tag limits and sensible responsible hunters are the majority.Much better to eat than cow,pig,or chicken!No antibiotics,GH,or any other garbage they pump into animals these days.

Fox hunting is completely different to the hunting you do, they dress up in stupid outfits, ride horses and chase a tiny fox with a huge pack of hounds. They then let the hounds rip the fox apart while standing aorund laughing. They then call it a sport.... Hileriously pathetic huh?

Legally thye are supposed ot shoot the fox now before the hounds get near it, but they blatently don't. Even then it's pointless waste of life. Completely different to hunting and killing somehting you can eat. :tu:

Edited by Coffey, 07 March 2013 - 07:14 PM.

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#125    Finity

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:24 PM

Well, eventually there will be none left in the areas they can hunt them in and no one else is going to allow them to poach from their waters. So eventually they WILL stop :P

As others have said. Fox hunting with dogs was carried out in the UK for centuries and it was banned. It wasn't something that was really needed by anyone, it was simply a luxury for posh ****s with to much money, quite like whale hunting...

If it was up to me, anyone who takes part in hunting something would also be open as prey themselves. That's fair right? I'm sure lots of people would love to take some shots at fox hunters, or torpedo whaling ships :D

Edited by Finity, 07 March 2013 - 07:41 PM.


#126    CrimsonKing

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 07:24 PM

View PostCoffey, on 07 March 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Fox hunting is completely different to the hunting you do, they dress up in stupid outfits, ride horses and chase a tiny fox with a huge pack of hounds. They then let the hounds rip the fox apart while standing aorund laughing. They then call it a sport.... Hileriously pathetic huh?

Legally thye are supposed ot shoot the fox now before the hounds get near it, but they blatently don't. Even then it's pointless waste of life. Completely different to hunting and killing somehting you can eat. :tu:

Yeah that is not hunting!That should be criminalized,sounds more like torturing animals while in clown costumes.Pointless and possibly one of the stupidest things i have ever heard of attaching its name to hunting.

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#127    DigitalDreamer

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:13 PM

in my opinion its savage to keep killing all these animals

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#128    Coffey

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 07 March 2013 - 07:24 PM, said:

Yeah that is not hunting!That should be criminalized,sounds more like torturing animals while in clown costumes.Pointless and possibly one of the stupidest things i have ever heard of attaching its name to hunting.

The problem is it's all the rich British people who are in power who support fox hunting. Just goes to show what kind of people run the UK. :td:

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#129    CrimsonKing

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 09:39 PM

View PostCoffey, on 07 March 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

The problem is it's all the rich British people who are in power who support fox hunting. Just goes to show what kind of people run the UK. :td:

Of course,the rich can do as they please no matter how careless and stupid.Not much better over here.When it comes to running things we could trade leaders and nothing would really change just the faces lol

"If it is not advantageous,do not move.If objectives can not be attained,do not employ the army.Unless endangered do not engage in warfare.The ruler cannot mobilize the army out of personal anger.The general can not engage in battle because of personal frustration.When it is advantageous,move;when not advantageous,stop.Anger can revert to happiness,annoyance can revert to joy,but a vanquished state cannot be revived,the dead cannot be brought back to life." Sun-Tzu

#130    Coffey

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Posted 07 March 2013 - 11:08 PM

View PostCrimsonKing, on 07 March 2013 - 09:39 PM, said:

Of course,the rich can do as they please no matter how careless and stupid.Not much better over here.When it comes to running things we could trade leaders and nothing would really change just the faces lol

Completely agree. lol :tu:

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#131    Yamato

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:02 AM

View PostBavarian Raven, on 07 March 2013 - 02:56 PM, said:

So in which country is Piracy legal? (other then Somalia)



Yam, your argument is still maintaining that its ok to kill and eat one species, but not another. You are still implying that one animal species has more of a right to be free/not be eaten then another. By your logic, it should be perfectly ok for the Japanese to continue whaling species of whales that are not endangered. One species of animal does not have more of a right to live than another.
My argument is maintaining that it's still okay to kill and eat farmed food but not unfarmed food.   Quit changing my position and restating it for me in false light.  I'm "implying" instead that one animal species has no less of a right to not be driven to extinction than any other.  

It's lame and impotent an argument to state that Japan can't kill whales because they're more intelligent than another species, or they're larger than another species, or they're more beautiful than another species, etc etc.  In the world dominated by humans, people only care about what animals can do for humans, even if it's sitting on your lap and looking cute, playing, pooping, sleeping and eating.  

If you want to have this debate with me, you need to get it right, and if you have ANY reason why whales shouldn't be slaughtered then lay it down now, and I will, in the respect you deserve, get your position right.

I NEVER said that it's okay that Japan can kill even one more whale.  I never implied that in the remotest wildest way.  That is you either misunderstanding me grossly or deliberately obfuscating the issue.   I will repeat myself to you again, the day that humankind is farming whales in giant whale farms for decades at a time for each individual and then slaughtering them for food is the day I will consider whales making the menu.  This isn't treating whales different from other species, this is treating whales exactly the same.

That labels and lines and rhetoric from the factories and the bureaucracies about what is "endangered" mustn't be the point in time that we scrape ourselves off the mat and start to care.   That's the proof that we waited way too damned long.

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#132    Yamato

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:10 AM

It's just like Paul Watson says, the Navies of the world should serve to protect the oceans they're sailing around on instead of finding silly little war games to play with each other instead.   A few Australian frigates to escort the Japanese poaching fleet out of Australian waters will be all it takes to pin Japanese pride down on the mat for good.   And according to the way most people think, when the ships are painted battleship grey and have guns on their deck, they must be from the government and so they're "legitimate".  Japan's self defense force can stay in Japan and continue to provide self defense.   An arbitrary bureaucratic decision by some politicians in Japan will be all it takes to end this scourge of the sea.  They can end this issue by tomorrow morning if they chose to do so.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#133    Myles

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 01:09 PM

View PostYamato, on 08 March 2013 - 06:02 AM, said:

My argument is maintaining that it's still okay to kill and eat farmed food but not unfarmed food.  

Are you also against deer hunting?    Turkey?    Fishing?


#134    Sakari

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 02:58 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 06 March 2013 - 07:20 AM, said:

I read comments about the age of posters.  I have to say that in my view age does not bring wisdom, but it does bring experience.  Whether or not wisdom comes from experience depends on the person.  Sometimes it only brings ossification.

To my mind, from what we know about whales, I think their killing verges on criminal.  Now we don't like the killing of any animal, and yet eat meat, so are we hypocrites?

I don't think so, and if you've dealt with cows you may understand why.  They verge on vegetableness -- at least domestic cattle.  So long as they are treated well and killed humanely, the moral offense of eating meat is not great.  The main reason I support avoiding beef is because of the methane they produce that adds to global warming.  

Whales are a very different story in terms of intelligence, and it is impossible to kill them humanely.


Some people try to use the " you eat pigs, cow, chickens, etc..."

What they fail to realize is that if those animals became endangered, or even close to it, we would not eat them, we would protect them.

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#135    scarfaceclaw

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Posted 09 March 2013 - 09:34 AM

There is no evidence to even suggest that the whales they take are even an  endangered species any more, and certainly the handful of whales japan take makes little difference to their numbers.

Green Peace are a joke, its a business, they need to be seen to be doing something to validate the millions of dollars of profit  they make every year.





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