98 replies to this topic

[and then]

ExpandMyMind, on 11 August 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

Iran doesn't have any such record. They fund groups - have funded groups - that were in a legitimate battle for survival against Israel. They didn't provide funding to Hezbollah and state ' you must kill citizens of Israel or America with this money', as you seem to suggest. They provided the means for legitimate resistance organisations for their struggle. This is before we even recognise that Hezbollah primarily attacked military targets (it was Hamas that killed civilians in retaliation of the Occupation).

Your view of Iran is warped. More so when we consider the events that the U.S. is responsible for against them, before we even mention the brutal and illegal sanctions now installed against them. What about the Iranian commercial plane that was brought down by the U.S. Navy? The brutal regime the U.S. installed and backed, etc, etc, etc.

Ex, when Iran finally assembles their nuclear weapon at some point future the region will become a ticking trap just waiting for a mistake to be made by an unwary or thoughtless person on one side or another.  With the hatreds that exist on both sides it's only a matter of time before a miscalculation is made.  Look at Lebanon in '06.  Even Nasrallah was shocked at the Israeli actions countering the kidnapping.  And miss-communication between "friends" is likely to be as dangerous as miss-communication between enemies.  If the Hezzies get itchy and decide to make a particularly bold move without specific instructions and an Israeli pol or general is having a bad month, suddenly the region is on fire and brinksmanship comes into play.  AND these enemies genuinely hate each other and have no effective system in place for talking things back from the brink.  A modern use of one of these weapons will be very bad for us all and it seems to be a growing possibility these days.

[Coffey]

and then, on 11 August 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Ex, when Iran finally assembles their nuclear weapon at some point future the region will become a ticking trap just waiting for a mistake to be made by an unwary or thoughtless person on one side or another.  With the hatreds that exist on both sides it's only a matter of time before a miscalculation is made.  Look at Lebanon in '06.  Even Nasrallah was shocked at the Israeli actions countering the kidnapping.  And miss-communication between "friends" is likely to be as dangerous as miss-communication between enemies.  If the Hezzies get itchy and decide to make a particularly bold move without specific instructions and an Israeli pol or general is having a bad month, suddenly the region is on fire and brinksmanship comes into play.  AND these enemies genuinely hate each other and have no effective system in place for talking things back from the brink.  A modern use of one of these weapons will be very bad for us all and it seems to be a growing possibility these days.

I can't see how anyone would actually use a full on nuke.... I do not see it happening. Iran hasn't attacked nayone in a long time, their only war was an attack from Iraq. They have seen what the NATO forces can do. Do you relaly think they would be that stupid?!

[ExpandMyMind]

and then, on 11 August 2012 - 10:03 PM, said:

Ex, when Iran finally assembles their nuclear weapon at some point future the region will become a ticking trap just waiting for a mistake to be made by an unwary or thoughtless person on one side or another.  With the hatreds that exist on both sides it's only a matter of time before a miscalculation is made.  Look at Lebanon in '06.  Even Nasrallah was shocked at the Israeli actions countering the kidnapping.  And miss-communication between "friends" is likely to be as dangerous as miss-communication between enemies.  If the Hezzies get itchy and decide to make a particularly bold move without specific instructions and an Israeli pol or general is having a bad month, suddenly the region is on fire and brinksmanship comes into play.  AND these enemies genuinely hate each other and have no effective system in place for talking things back from the brink.  A modern use of one of these weapons will be very bad for us all and it seems to be a growing possibility these days.

Talk about Lebanon '06'? Hezbollah took hostages? How many hostages does Israel hold of Lebanon? Which was the whole reason for Hezbollah acting in the manner they did. Israel holds thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians hostages. After all, it is the only country in the world too actually legalise hostage taking...

Edited by ExpandMyMind, 11 August 2012 - 11:14 PM.

[and then]

ExpandMyMind, on 11 August 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Talk about Lebanon '06'? Hezbollah took hostages? How many hostages does Israel hold of Lebanon? Which was the whole reason for Hezbollah acting in the manner they did. Israel holds thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians hostages. After all, it is the only country in the world too actually legalise hostage taking...

You take all the points I just made, serious points, and distill them down to "they started it"?  That kind of argument is going to seem a bit lightweight the day after a bomb goes of in a M.E. country, or even worse, somewhere in the West.  My point is that adding another nuclear power into an unstable part of the world just because one doesn't like Israel isn't very smart.  It's called "cutting off your nose to spite your face" in the south.  Hezballah has as it's only real goal in life the destruction of the State of Israel.  It's been that way since their inception.  If you support Hezballah then one must assume you support their stated goals.  How is it that you cannot grasp that this conflict is leading the whole world into a very dangerous, even existentially threatening situation?  Or is your dislike/hatred of Israel so strong that you are willing to risk everything to see them defeated?  I saw a news article today that may sum it all up.  To paraphrase: The world doesn't believe Netanyahu will attack Iran- they don't believe he's serious so they're not worried.  Is that the place your attitudes come from?  You don't think it's anything more than an academic exercise?  And you consider me to be deluded because of my faith...it's ironic IMO.

[Br Cornelius]

Who is the only nuclear state in the middle east with a reputation for belligerent assaults on its neighbours to grab territory.  Who should be afraid of been attacked unilaterally by a nuclear power ? Who has openly stated that they will take pre-emptive strikes against Iran ?

It looks entirely reasonable to want to own a nuclear deterrent in such a situation ?

You ask us to trust Israel when its political system is dominated by maniacal religious fanatics who believe they have a divine right to do whatever they damn well like, and who are backed by a bunch of crazies who would like nothing better than to see Israel go up in a mushroom cloud so that their Messiah can come back.

I would be genuinely terrified if I was an Iranian.

Who here is dangerously delusional ??

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 12 August 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[and then]

Br Cornelius, on 12 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Who is the only nuclear state in the middle east with a reputation for belligerent assaults on its neighbours to grab territory.  Who should be afraid of been attacked unilaterally by a nuclear power ? Who has openly stated that they will take pre-emptive strikes against Iran ?

It looks entirely reasonable to want to own a nuclear deterrent in such a situation ?

You ask us to trust Israel when its political system is dominated by maniacal religious fanatics who believe they have a divine right to do whatever they damn well like, and who are backed by a bunch of crazies who would like nothing better than to see Israel go up in a mushroom cloud so that their Messiah can come back.

I would be genuinely terrified if I was an Iranian.

Who here is dangerously delusional ??

Br Cornelius

Is this a belief you ascribe to Christians?  I live in the "Bible Belt" and have never heard such a statement.  The return of Jesus is spoken of hundreds of times in scripture and NO reference is made that any action need be taken by His followers to precipitate it.  NONE.  In fact we are told just the opposite.  That NO Man knows when it will happen, only the "season" or general time frame.  As to the maniacal Israeli government, they've had the bomb since the 60's.  I haven't noticed any mushroom clouds yet.  Those "belligerent assaults" were to keep from being pushed into the sea.  BTW...if the idiot Arabs want to keep losing land then let them keep attacking.

Edited by and then, 12 August 2012 - 11:59 AM.

[Br Cornelius]

This is just a blog piece but it sets out how prominent Evangelicals want a war to break out in the Middle East so that Biblical prophecy can be forfilled;

http://www.washingto...ainst-iran.html

It points to why we should be very distrustful of any moves made against Iran. This is why Christian fundamentalists scare the **** out of me. I saw a BBC documentary (Louis Theroux) following evangelical Americans on a bus tour of the Israel, where the tourists openly expressed the opinion that Israel must hold all of the territory promised in the Bible and that Israel would all be wiped out as a precursor to the return of the Messiah.

A documentary laying out the apocalyptic beliefs of evangelicals;



Crazy Crazy Crazy

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 12 August 2012 - 02:39 PM.

[Coffey]

That Documentary is scary as hell. To think people believe that garbage, it's them making it come true. Not some work of "god".

[and then]

Coffey, on 12 August 2012 - 03:15 PM, said:

That Documentary is scary as hell. To think people believe that garbage, it's them making it come true. Not some work of "god".

So by believing in the Bible and what it says, Christians are somehow causing the problems in the M.E.?  Just by believing and telling others... that's pretty impressive.  This documentary is interesting and I have no doubt that some Christians are intimately involved in industries that could push some agenda.  But the numbers don't work.  Most Christians are not involved in such things.  The thing that scares people like Br C and yourself is the mere possibility that at some point you may lose control over your life and your will.  The sad thing is that this control you mourn is only an illusion anyhow.  Later today the phone could ring and crush your life with horrible personal news (God forbid it).  A news report of a major war breaking out... a flu or some other plague that there is no cure for might flare in your area.  THIS is the reality of life.  These people have a belief system that differs from your's but it shouldn't threaten you - it should encourage you if you really want hope for a better future.  Yes, the world is descending into a great darkness but that darkness is man made.  Not caused by God.  It would happen anyway.  He offers hope for a peace beyond what we have been capable of providing ourselves.
The gloom and doom these people are speaking of is not imaginary - unless you don't believe the Bible.  And if you don't believe the Bible then relax...no problem, right?  What I hear in your words is a desperate attempt to find a human element to blame for what's coming.  So you choose to blame the messengers.  It doesn't help but you aren't the first to try it.

[Br Cornelius]

and then, on 12 August 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

So by believing in the Bible and what it says, Christians are somehow causing the problems in the M.E.?  Just by believing and telling others... that's pretty impressive.  This documentary is interesting and I have no doubt that some Christians are intimately involved in industries that could push some agenda.  But the numbers don't work.  Most Christians are not involved in such things.  The thing that scares people like Br C and yourself is the mere possibility that at some point you may lose control over your life and your will.  The sad thing is that this control you mourn is only an illusion anyhow.  Later today the phone could ring and crush your life with horrible personal news (God forbid it).  A news report of a major war breaking out... a flu or some other plague that there is no cure for might flare in your area.  THIS is the reality of life.  These people have a belief system that differs from your's but it shouldn't threaten you - it should encourage you if you really want hope for a better future.  Yes, the world is descending into a great darkness but that darkness is man made.  Not caused by God.  It would happen anyway.  He offers hope for a peace beyond what we have been capable of providing ourselves.
The gloom and doom these people are speaking of is not imaginary - unless you don't believe the Bible.  And if you don't believe the Bible then relax...no problem, right?  What I hear in your words is a desperate attempt to find a human element to blame for what's coming.  So you choose to blame the messengers.  It doesn't help but you aren't the first to try it.

There is an excellent Christian moral philosophy book called "Dancing to Armageddon" about the corrosive effects ancient Biblical myths on people perceptions about their duty for stewardship of the Earth.
You should drop all the Mythical Biblical Mumbo Jumbo and follow Jesus' actual message which was to "Love thy Neighbour". If all Christians did the same we would all be in a much better place.

Br Cornelius

[and then]

Br Cornelius, on 12 August 2012 - 09:08 PM, said:

There is an excellent Christian moral philosophy book called "Dancing to Armageddon" about the corrosive effects ancient Biblical myths on people perceptions about their duty for stewardship of the Earth.
You should drop all the Mythical Biblical Mumbo Jumbo and follow Jesus' actual message which was to "Love thy Neighbour". If all Christians did the same we would all be in a much better place.

Br Cornelius

IOW take that part of the message you like and leave the rest?  I didn't write it brutha.  Since you feel it's mumbo jumbo then don't worry about it...I'm sure an exception will be made in your case.... whatever....

[shaddow134]

Br Cornelius, on 12 August 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

This is just a blog piece but it sets out how prominent Evangelicals want a war to break out in the Middle East so that Biblical prophecy can be forfilled;

http://www.washingto...ainst-iran.html

It points to why we should be very distrustful of any moves made against Iran. This is why Christian fundamentalists scare the **** out of me. I saw a BBC documentary (Louis Theroux) following evangelical Americans on a bus tour of the Israel, where the tourists openly expressed the opinion that Israel must hold all of the territory promised in the Bible and that Israel would all be wiped out as a precursor to the return of the Messiah.

A documentary laying out the apocalyptic beliefs of evangelicals;



Crazy Crazy Crazy

Br Cornelius

Kind of Scary,No wonder the Iranians want Nukes.....

[Br Cornelius]

The part of the Bible concerning Jesus is relatively small and essentially contains the message "Love thy Neighbour". The rest of the Bible was cobbled together by the early church and has little to do with what Jesus was actually supposed to have said. As I said - dump the mumbo jumbo - it might help you reset your faulty moral compass.

I neither need or want an exception, and cannot imagine where one would come from.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 12 August 2012 - 09:48 PM.

[and then]

shaddow134, on 12 August 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

Kind of Scary,No wonder the Iranians want Nukes.....

No...shaddow....the Iranians want nukes (the nutjob leaders anyway) so they can actually DO what this documentary implies that evangelicals want - to "hasten the coming" of the Mahdi or in our case Christ.  The difference is that there is NO such doctrine in the Church and if you hear a "Christian" utter one then they are deceived and in a very small minority.  The "Twelvers" of Shia Islam are instructed to create chaos, and the statement in the Qur'an is that the last day CANNOT come unless the Muslims fight the Jews and kill them.  Can you think of a better way to create chaos on a global scale than to detonate a nuke?  These guys are lumping all religions who believe in an end time scenario together.  And since I believe it is true that Christ will return I take seriously the lies being spread to sow fear and confusion among those who do not understand.

[Coffey]

and then, on 12 August 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

So by believing in the Bible and what it says, Christians are somehow causing the problems in the M.E.?  Just by believing and telling others... that's pretty impressive.  This documentary is interesting and I have no doubt that some Christians are intimately involved in industries that could push some agenda.  But the numbers don't work.  Most Christians are not involved in such things.  The thing that scares people like Br C and yourself is the mere possibility that at some point you may lose control over your life and your will.  The sad thing is that this control you mourn is only an illusion anyhow.  Later today the phone could ring and crush your life with horrible personal news (God forbid it).  A news report of a major war breaking out... a flu or some other plague that there is no cure for might flare in your area.  THIS is the reality of life.  These people have a belief system that differs from your's but it shouldn't threaten you - it should encourage you if you really want hope for a better future.  Yes, the world is descending into a great darkness but that darkness is man made.  Not caused by God.  It would happen anyway.  He offers hope for a peace beyond what we have been capable of providing ourselves.
The gloom and doom these people are speaking of is not imaginary - unless you don't believe the Bible.  And if you don't believe the Bible then relax...no problem, right?  What I hear in your words is a desperate attempt to find a human element to blame for what's coming.  So you choose to blame the messengers.  It doesn't help but you aren't the first to try it.

I didn't read past that cause you completely misread what I said.

Quote

That Documentary is scary as hell. To think people believe that garbage, it's them making it come true. Not some work of "god".

See the making it, part... I meant through US/Israeli government etc putting things in place...

You know like coaxing people into war etc.