82 replies to this topic

[OverSword]

From the article:

CIA agents tortured a German citizen, sodomising, shackling, and beating him, as Macedonian state police looked on, the European court of human rights said in a historic judgment released on Thursday.
In a unanimous ruling, it also found Macedonia guilty of torturing, abusing, and secretly imprisoning Khaled el-Masri, a German of Lebanese origin allegedly linked to terrorist organisations.
Masri was seized in Macedonia in December 2003 and handed over to a CIA "rendition team" at Skopje airport and secretly flown to Afghanistan.
It is the first time the court has described CIA treatment meted out to terror suspects as torture

http://www.guardian....-terror-suspect

Interesting that they actually do refer to it as torture when the person was innocent but just enhanced interogation otherwise.

OK, now let the justifications begin!

[CuriousGreek]

And they want to enter the EU? Gimme a break...

[Babe Ruth]

It is for these reasons that they hate us, NOT because of our so-called freedom.

Sad to report, but the US has become synonymous with rendition, torture, and death of innocents from drones.  

[Bama13]

Babe Ruth, on 14 December 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

It is for these reasons that they hate us, NOT because of our so-called freedom.

Sad to report, but the US has become synonymous with rendition, torture, and death of innocents from drones.  

So which came first the torture of terrorists or the acts of terrorism that lead to the torture of terrorists?

[OverSword]

Bama13, on 14 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

So which came first the torture of terrorists or the acts of terrorism that lead to the torture of terrorists?

In the case that this post is talking about there was no terrorist, so where does this argument get you now?  Gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette, right? (duh)

[Babe Ruth]

Bama13, on 14 December 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

So which came first the torture of terrorists or the acts of terrorism that lead to the torture of terrorists?

Well humans have tortured each others for many many centuries.

After the Nuremberg Trials, in a perhaps false claim to being civilized, we outlawed the practice.  That might not have ended it, but it did allow a framework in which practitioners of the dark art could be prosecuted.

In my mind, it's not so much that the practice will be ended, but simply that those doing it be punished accordingly, such as one might find in a country that operates under the rule of law in protecting human dignity.

So, I don't know the precise answer to your rhetorical question.  To get precise, some definitions would be in order.

[OverSword]

Surprising there has been sparse comment on this.  Last time I posted a thread about torture I was amazed at the amount of people that thought it was beneficial to our safety.  Now that it turns out not all of the people they put the screws to are guilty of or knowledgable of terrorism the silence is deafening.

[Babe Ruth]

OS

Good people don't like to admit to themselves that their government is the world leader in torture and assassination, but sometimes they must.  maybe they just don't like to talk about it?

[Bama13]

OverSword, on 14 December 2012 - 08:32 PM, said:

In the case that this post is talking about there was no terrorist, so where does this argument get you now?  Gotta break a few eggs to make an omlette, right? (duh)

Sorry you said the reason "they" hate us. I assumed the "they" were terrorists. So did we torture this guy before or after 9/11? Before and you will have a point. After, not so much.

[Babe Ruth]

Bama13, on 17 December 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Sorry you said the reason "they" hate us. I assumed the "they" were terrorists. So did we torture this guy before or after 9/11? Before and you will have a point. After, not so much.

It's nowhere near that simple....

[tyrant lizard]

And, of course, the Eurpoean Court of Human Rights has never been wrong before

[Rut Roh]

OverSword, on 17 December 2012 - 03:45 PM, said:

Surprising there has been sparse comment on this.  Last time I posted a thread about torture I was amazed at the amount of people that thought it was beneficial to our safety.  Now that it turns out not all of the people they put the screws to are guilty of or knowledgable of terrorism the silence is deafening.

Well, I for one think the lines of what we were discussing as "torture" have been blurred considerably by this story. Let us compare apples to apples, my friend.  We were discussing sleep deprivation as form of "torture" not sodomy and beating.  As for the justification, what in the world would make you think that most people that agree with enhanced interrogation would lump sodomy and beating into the mix and be okay with it?

If this is completely true then it is very sad event that hopefully wasn't repeated.  But to draw justification from this as if this somehow "makes" your argument is a stretch under any microscope.  Nice try though.

[OverSword]

Bama13, on 17 December 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Sorry you said the reason "they" hate us. I assumed the "they" were terrorists. So did we torture this guy before or after 9/11? Before and you will have a point. After, not so much.

So the torture of innocent people is fine if it occured post 9/11?  Then I hope they torture you to determine if you know something or not.  You won't mind will you?

[AsteroidX]

Since when do we sodomize people ? I doubt there is much of the population that condones that.

[OverSword]

Rut Roh, on 18 December 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Well, I for one think the lines of what we were discussing as "torture" have been blurred considerably by this story. Let us compare apples to apples, my friend.  We were discussing sleep deprivation as form of "torture" not sodomy and beating.  As for the justification, what in the world would make you think that most people that agree with enhanced interrogation would lump sodomy and beating into the mix and be okay with it?

If this is completely true then it is very sad event that hopefully wasn't repeated.  But to draw justification from this as if this somehow "makes" your argument is a stretch under any microscope.  Nice try though.

And you know that I'm referring to simple sleep deprivation how???  BTW staying awake past five days can be fatal.  Nice try though.