32 replies to this topic

[Yamato]

and then, on 09 January 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

A fair resolution seems to be the sticking point for now.  Has been these 60 years.  Both sides want all the land but only one side seems willing (by their actions) to actually give any up for peace.

No, only one side has the others' land to give.  

You've been given the evidence about what Palestinians really want and you thumb your nose at it and continue spewing baseless BS from the Zionist crockpot.   The evidence doesn't matter to you.  Fantasies about what one "side" wants are so much easier to manufacture to prop up one's love of Zionist tyranny.

[and then]

Yamato, on 09 January 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

No, only one side has the others' land to give.  

You've been given the evidence about what Palestinians really want and you thumb your nose at it and continue spewing baseless BS from the Zionist crockpot.   The evidence doesn't matter to you.  Fantasies about what one "side" wants are so much easier to manufacture to prop up one's love of Zionist tyranny.

I simply use their own words Yam.  Israel gave up the Sinai for peace and most of the WB back to Jordan for the same reason.  When they gave Gaza back they were killed for their trouble.  Spin it any way you like but those are the facts.  If the business in Gaza continues I hope they really do "ethnically cleanse" it.  A regular "here's your hat, what's your hurry" kind of removal of everyone who fires rockets or looks the other way while it's done.  What the Israelis have to put up with from the Palestinians is unacceptable to people who think rationally about it.  Eventually Israelis will finally understand that there can never be peace and will act accordingly.  The irony is that the very thing that is restraining them today is being eroded daily by the Palestinians.  Israel has been trying for years to cultivate good relations with the nations of the world, in part by being even handed with the demands of the Palestinians as best they can.  But it does no good.  The world is increasingly against Israel.  When that tipping point occurs and popular opinion there changes then the Palestinians will suffer and frankly they should - they cannot have the land that was given to Israel.  I don't care if they agreed with the deal or not.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 09 January 2013 - 07:43 PM, said:

A fair resolution seems to be the sticking point for now.  Has been these 60 years.  Both sides want all the land but only one side seems willing (by their actions) to actually give any up for peace.

That is  nothing but a pack of wallop out the bull's behind, Israel has never offered full sovereignty to the Palestinians. Please read the small print.

Here is the "generous" offer Israel made to the Palestinians at the 2000 Camp David accords.

1. Israel would have full sovereignty of Jerusalem

2. Israel would maintain fortified settlements, and Israeli only roads in the occupied west bank

3. Palestinians would have no control of their airspace.

4. Palestinians would have control of only 73% of the occupied west bank

5. Israel would maintain control of all borders

6. The northern and southern parts of the west bank would be separated, and the road connection could be closed by Israel at its own discretion

7. Palestine would have limited control of water resources

8. Israel would place early warning systems within Palestinian territory

9. Israel reserved the right to conduct military operations within the Palestinian state

10. The Palestinian state would be entirely demilitarized

11. Palestinian refugees would have no right of return

As is evident, this offer was far from "generous". It would simply constitute a situation that is very similar to what is happening now, except it would be Internationally be recognized as a state. Palestinians would have to entirely relinquish Jerusalem as their capital. They would have no way of defending themselves from Israeli incursions, no control over their borders, airspace, or water. This, in no way constitutes a sovereign, viable, free, Palestinian state.

Edited by Ambush Bug, 10 January 2013 - 02:00 AM.

[and then]

Ambush Bug, on 10 January 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

That is  nothing but a pack of wallop out the bull's behind, Israel has never offered full sovereignty to the Palestinians. Please read the small print.

Here is the "generous" offer Israel made to the Palestinians at the 2000 Camp David accords.

1. Israel would have full sovereignty of Jerusalem

2. Israel would maintain fortified settlements, and Israeli only roads in the occupied west bank

3. Palestinians would have no control of their airspace.

4. Palestinians would have control of only 73% of the occupied west bank

5. Israel would maintain control of all borders

6. The northern and southern parts of the west bank would be separated, and the road connection could be closed by Israel at its own discretion

7. Palestine would have limited control of water resources

8. Israel would place early warning systems within Palestinian territory

9. Israel reserved the right to conduct military operations within the Palestinian state

10. The Palestinian state would be entirely demilitarized

11. Palestinian refugees would have no right of return

As is evident, this offer was far from "generous". It would simply constitute a situation that is very similar to what is happening now, except it would be Internationally be recognized as a state. Palestinians would have to entirely relinquish Jerusalem as their capital. They would have no way of defending themselves from Israeli incursions, no control over their borders, airspace, or water. This, in no way constitutes a sovereign, viable, free, Palestinian state.

Israel GAVE SINAI BACK....Israel gave GAZA BACK.  Israel allows self determination in most of the WB.  The idea that Israel will someday be forced into committing national suicide by giving the Palestinians right of return will NEVER HAPPEN as long as Israel remains a democracy.  The version of a free, sovereign Palestinian state that they want is one that covers every square inch of the current state of Israel.  Do you deny this?  In spite of the school books and maps and statements of their leaders?

[Yamato]

and then, on 09 January 2013 - 09:25 PM, said:

I simply use their own words Yam.  Israel gave up the Sinai for peace and most of the WB back to Jordan for the same reason.  When they gave Gaza back they were killed for their trouble.  Spin it any way you like but those are the facts.  If the business in Gaza continues I hope they really do "ethnically cleanse" it.  A regular "here's your hat, what's your hurry" kind of removal of everyone who fires rockets or looks the other way while it's done.  What the Israelis have to put up with from the Palestinians is unacceptable to people who think rationally about it.  Eventually Israelis will finally understand that there can never be peace and will act accordingly.  The irony is that the very thing that is restraining them today is being eroded daily by the Palestinians.  Israel has been trying for years to cultivate good relations with the nations of the world, in part by being even handed with the demands of the Palestinians as best they can.  But it does no good.  The world is increasingly against Israel.  When that tipping point occurs and popular opinion there changes then the Palestinians will suffer and frankly they should - they cannot have the land that was given to Israel.  I don't care if they agreed with the deal or not.

The settlements ruin the case.  It ruins Israel's reputation and makes their claims of peace and security sound hollow.   It ruins the claim that they "gave back" territory that doesn't belong to them.   If Mississippi invades Georgia through Alabama, does Georgia have the right to take land from Alabama?   I don't think that's the case.  I think Georgia might have the right to take some land from Mississippi, and the analogy to that would be the Golan Heights.  How often do you hear me ranting about the Golan Heights?   Come on man, have a single standard on something!

[and then]

Yamato, on 10 January 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

The settlements ruin the case.  It ruins Israel's reputation and makes their claims of peace and security sound hollow.   It ruins the claim that they "gave back" territory that doesn't belong to them.   If Mississippi invades Georgia through Alabama, does Georgia have the right to take land from Alabama?   I don't think that's the case.  I think Georgia might have the right to take some land from Mississippi, and the analogy to that would be the Golan Heights.  How often do you hear me ranting about the Golan Heights?   Come on man, have a single standard on something!

I do have a single standard - you just don't agree with it - as is your right.  You would gladly see the state of Israel dismantled and moved "elsewhere".  You disagree that the Israelis have any claim to the land they have built on for 65 years - essentially saying the existence of the state is a crime.  You give credence to the Palestinian claim of all the land and the reality is that this is just never going to happen.  When I was 3 I'm sure that when I didn't get my way I probably cried, stomped my feet and maybe even held my breath.  I learned that it didn't work and I moved on.  Not trying to impute childishness to you but it certainly fits the attitude of the leaders of Palestinians.  Hamas wants it ALL.  They say so publicly and loudly.  Abbas recently used the phrase "descendants of apes and swine" when talking about Jews.  The behavior is irrational unless they feel they have enough support from the world to chip away at the land until they are strong enough to someday take the rest by force.  It ends badly for them Yam.

[Yamato]

and then, on 10 January 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

I do have a single standard - you just don't agree with it - as is your right.  You would gladly see the state of Israel dismantled and moved "elsewhere".  You disagree that the Israelis have any claim to the land they have built on for 65 years - essentially saying the existence of the state is a crime.  You give credence to the Palestinian claim of all the land and the reality is that this is just never going to happen.  When I was 3 I'm sure that when I didn't get my way I probably cried, stomped my feet and maybe even held my breath.  I learned that it didn't work and I moved on.  Not trying to impute childishness to you but it certainly fits the attitude of the leaders of Palestinians.  Hamas wants it ALL.  They say so publicly and loudly.  Abbas recently used the phrase "descendants of apes and swine" when talking about Jews.  The behavior is irrational unless they feel they have enough support from the world to chip away at the land until they are strong enough to someday take the rest by force.  It ends badly for them Yam.

What single standard do you have?   On occupations?  Slaughtering children?  Igniting chemical weapons?  Renegade nukes?   Apartheid settlements?   International Law?  The United Nations?   "The Jews" and "the Arabs"?  You don't have a single standard on any of them.

No, If I dismantled and moved Israel elsewhere, I'm just repeating the same mistake.   So no, I don't think that at all.  No I don't "disagree that the Israelis have any claim to the land...65 years...".   Don't tell me what I think when you're this incapable of getting it right.   Why don't you actually try quoting me before telling me what I disagree with?    You're just circling the wagons repeating your baseless claims about me and the Palestinians too.   Though you've been shown what the Palestinians really think numerous times, you return with amnesia soon enough.  "The Palestinian claim" isn't the Hamas charter.  You've been dearly misled to think that a Hamas bureaucrat represents Palestinian humanity.  

I don't accuse you of sharing the views of every nutty thing I can find that a US bureaucrat once said or wrote, obviously because you have nothing to do with it.  So stop projecting that nonsense on the Palestinians.

You think you're quoting Abbas now?   Source, please.

You're throwing little Palestinian colored stink bombs carelessly and you don't really know what you're talking about.  You make up myths or carry someone else's so you can impose a double standard for israel every rhetorical chance you get.   I resent and reject double standards, WMDs and occupation regimes are two things in particular that get a lot of air time around here and you gleefully wordsmith the zionist hypocrisy for both.   If I don't have a single standard that I'm comfortable with to deal with any of these issues, I look for one.  And if I can't find one, I keep looking.   When I find one that's good enough for Israel and Palestine both, I find it worth defending rhetorically at the very least, and paying for in our policies at the most.

I'm actually proud of my country.  I am proud that the deep south of the mid 20th century is dead and buried.   Likewise, I am glad that apartheid South Africa vanished from the pages of time.  I'm intellectually capable of understanding that South Africa was no welfare case worth paying for, even if it wasn't Birmingham AL, Nazi Germany or Zionist Israel, even if it didn't have VX nerve gas, even if it didn't have arsenals of rogue nukes, even if it didn't have Arab Muslims or Zionist Jews, and even if it wasn't the worst place on the planet, even if something worse than South Africa preexisted it or coexisted with it elsewhere in the world.  I'm glad that sorry excuse for a country is in the history books.  And no, I'm not anti-British Commonwealth or anti-white-people to come to that conclusion.  What's important for Americans, Brits, and the rest of the world to do is call out Israel for what it is, and put an end to the Zionist regime the same way the world put an end to the National Party of 1948 South Africa.   If the Zionist regime in Israel wants to come to the table and be taken seriously, every settlement in the West Bank will need to be abandoned, including their deep dig into East Jerusalem.

[Leave Britney alone!]

and then, on 10 January 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

Israel GAVE SINAI BACK....Israel gave GAZA BACK.  Israel allows self determination in most of the WB.  The idea that Israel will someday be forced into committing national suicide by giving the Palestinians right of return will NEVER HAPPEN as long as Israel remains a democracy.  The version of a free, sovereign Palestinian state that they want is one that covers every square inch of the current state of Israel.  Do you deny this?  In spite of the school books and maps and statements of their leaders?

Right of return is still fair and decent.

Then the vote should be available to all who live there.

A Palestine with both Jews, Palestinians, and immigrants working on becoming citizens is what we want. It will be achieved one day. Those who are Israelis now will have to live in one country and share political power in a process known as democracy

Have you heard of it?

One day democracy will be extended all aross the globe. Syria is next.

Let the progressive dream continue turning into reality.

Edited by I believe you, 10 January 2013 - 02:19 PM.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 10 January 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:

Israel GAVE SINAI BACK....Israel gave GAZA BACK.

The Sinai was dealed away back to Egypt. Gaza is completely blockaded. The Gazans have no control over their own borders have no access to the sea or air either.

Quote

Israel allows self determination in most of the WB.

Baloney! What is with the nearly 300 Jew ONLY settlements, the several hundred checkpoints, the JEW only highways, and the Israeli occupation under Israeli military law. Don't p*** down our backs and tell us it is raining.

Quote

The idea that Israel will someday be forced into committing national suicide by giving the Palestinians right of return will NEVER HAPPEN as long as Israel remains a democracy.  The version of a free, sovereign Palestinian state that they want is one that covers every square inch of the current state of Israel.  Do you deny this?  In spite of the school books and maps and statements of their leaders?

When has Palestine enjoyed a sovereign state? When has Palestine not been occupied? Is not Israel invading Palestine with settlements? Is not Israel attempting to build settlements on every hill in Palestine? With checkpoints and roadblocks? Jew ONLY superhighways? Is not Israel building an apartheid wall?

Tell me something, and then, how many settlements have Palestine built in Israel? How many walls has Palestine constructed in Israel? How many checkpoints and roadblocks has Palestine put up in Israel? How many Palestinian Arab ONLY roads and superhighways has Palestine laid down in Israel?

[Yamato]

Dealed away back to Egypt indeed.  Egypt has been a bribed accomplice with this inhumanity and it still is, although change is now possible now thanks to the revolution.   Was I the only one to notice that the question of the status of all this Jimmy Carter Aid hasn't been answered?   Did anyone even ask Hillary Clinton in a public setting?    We give Egypt thousands of millions of US taxpayer dollars to keep their sweet mouths shut.   The problem with Egypt is that the border with Gaza isn't above ground.  It's gone underground, the same way the Jews had to do it in World War 2.   There should be giant crates of AK-47s and other weapons rolling across the border by truck every day.  But Palestinians can't have guns....another absurd hypocrisy some of our noses are too high in the air to see.  

It's equally stupid to say that Syrians can't have guns.   The difference between Palestine and Syria is that the Syrian guns are blazing.   Palestinians need to stay disarmed so this terrorism can continue.   If every Palestinian man and woman had a fully auto assault rifle, they might be able to shoot their way out of that open-air sarcophagus they're imprisoned in, or at the very least make Israel think twice the next time they want to start shooting children in the streets again.

[B Jenkins]

Yamato, on 10 January 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

I'm actually proud of my country.  I am proud that the deep south of the mid 20th century is dead and buried.   Likewise, I am glad that apartheid South Africa vanished from the pages of time.  I'm intellectually capable of understanding that South Africa was no welfare case worth paying for, even if it wasn't Birmingham AL, Nazi Germany or Zionist Israel, even if it didn't have VX nerve gas, even if it didn't have arsenals of rogue nukes, even if it didn't have Arab Muslims or Zionist Jews, and even if it wasn't the worst place on the planet, even if something worse than South Africa preexisted it or coexisted with it elsewhere in the world.  I'm glad that sorry excuse for a country is in the history books.  And no, I'm not anti-British Commonwealth or anti-white-people to come to that conclusion.  What's important for Americans, Brits, and the rest of the world to do is call out Israel for what it is, and put an end to the Zionist regime the same way the world put an end to the National Party of 1948 South Africa.   If the Zionist regime in Israel wants to come to the table and be taken seriously, every settlement in the West Bank will need to be abandoned, including their deep dig into East Jerusalem.

This.

[and then]

Ambush Bug, on 10 January 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

The Sinai was dealed away back to Egypt. Gaza is completely blockaded. The Gazans have no control over their own borders have no access to the sea or air either.



Baloney! What is with the nearly 300 Jew ONLY settlements, the several hundred checkpoints, the JEW only highways, and the Israeli occupation under Israeli military law. Don't p*** down our backs and tell us it is raining.



When has Palestine enjoyed a sovereign state? When has Palestine not been occupied? Is not Israel invading Palestine with settlements? Is not Israel attempting to build settlements on every hill in Palestine? With checkpoints and roadblocks? Jew ONLY superhighways? Is not Israel building an apartheid wall?

Tell me something, and then, how many settlements have Palestine built in Israel? How many walls has Palestine constructed in Israel? How many checkpoints and roadblocks has Palestine put up in Israel? How many Palestinian Arab ONLY roads and superhighways has Palestine laid down in Israel?

I did not say the Palestinians had a free sovereign state. I said that the state they envision is one that takes every square inch of the land Israel sits on and so, it is an impossibility.  There is no lasting solution to this conflict except for one side to triumph over the other so totally that they cannot rise again.  The rest is just smoke, mirrors and nonsense.

I believe you, on 10 January 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Right of return is still fair and decent.

Then the vote should be available to all who live there.

A Palestine with both Jews, Palestinians, and immigrants working on becoming citizens is what we want. It will be achieved one day. Those who are Israelis now will have to live in one country and share political power in a process known as democracy

Have you heard of it?

One day democracy will be extended all aross the globe. Syria is next.

Let the progressive dream continue turning into reality.

Right of return will never be allowed on the scale that Palestinians want.  For Israel to do so would cause Jews to be second class citizens in the state they built.  Not gonna happen.

Yamato, on 10 January 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

What single standard do you have?   On occupations?  Slaughtering children?  Igniting chemical weapons?  Renegade nukes?   Apartheid settlements?   International Law?  The United Nations?   "The Jews" and "the Arabs"?  You don't have a single standard on any of them.

No, If I dismantled and moved Israel elsewhere, I'm just repeating the same mistake.   So no, I don't think that at all.  No I don't "disagree that the Israelis have any claim to the land...65 years...".   Don't tell me what I think when you're this incapable of getting it right.   Why don't you actually try quoting me before telling me what I disagree with? You're just circling the wagons repeating your baseless claims about me and the Palestinians too.   Though you've been shown what the Palestinians really think numerous times, you return with amnesia soon enough.  "The Palestinian claim" isn't the Hamas charter.  You've been dearly misled to think that a Hamas bureaucrat represents Palestinian humanity.  

I don't accuse you of sharing the views of every nutty thing I can find that a US bureaucrat once said or wrote, obviously because you have nothing to do with it.  So stop projecting that nonsense on the Palestinians.

You think you're quoting Abbas now?   Source, please.

You're throwing little Palestinian colored stink bombs carelessly and you don't really know what you're talking about.  You make up myths or carry someone else's so you can impose a double standard for israel every rhetorical chance you get.   I resent and reject double standards, WMDs and occupation regimes are two things in particular that get a lot of air time around here and you gleefully wordsmith the zionist hypocrisy for both.   If I don't have a single standard that I'm comfortable with to deal with any of these issues, I look for one.  And if I can't find one, I keep looking.   When I find one that's good enough for Israel and Palestine both, I find it worth defending rhetorically at the very least, and paying for in our policies at the most.

I'm actually proud of my country.  I am proud that the deep south of the mid 20th century is dead and buried.   Likewise, I am glad that apartheid South Africa vanished from the pages of time.  I'm intellectually capable of understanding that South Africa was no welfare case worth paying for, even if it wasn't Birmingham AL, Nazi Germany or Zionist Israel, even if it didn't have VX nerve gas, even if it didn't have arsenals of rogue nukes, even if it didn't have Arab Muslims or Zionist Jews, and even if it wasn't the worst place on the planet, even if something worse than South Africa preexisted it or coexisted with it elsewhere in the world.  I'm glad that sorry excuse for a country is in the history books.  And no, I'm not anti-British Commonwealth or anti-white-people to come to that conclusion.  What's important for Americans, Brits, and the rest of the world to do is call out Israel for what it is, and put an end to the Zionist regime the same way the world put an end to the National Party of 1948 South Africa.   If the Zionist regime in Israel wants to come to the table and be taken seriously, every settlement in the West Bank will need to be abandoned, including their deep dig into East Jerusalem.

I feel so unworthy   Pontificate all you like Yam - the song remains the same.  The Palestinians can have all the land they can win back in combat OR convince some weak kneed leftist government to give them.  But they will never get what they truly want.  What they openly speak of almost daily - all of Palestine from the river to the sea.  Dress it up and put makeup on it but a pig is still a pig - and this one squeals too much to even be taken seriously anymore.  Loose the dogs of war and settle it.  Let the world beach and moan in the aftermath but when it's over at least we'll not have to seriously consider the complaints of the losers any longer.  Have a nice day

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 10 January 2013 - 10:32 PM, said:

I did not say the Palestinians had a free sovereign state. I said that the state they envision is one that takes every square inch of the land Israel sits on and so, it is an impossibility.  There is no lasting solution to this conflict except for one side to triumph over the other so totally that they cannot rise again.  The rest is just smoke, mirrors and nonsense.

No the simply answer to all of this nonsense. Palestine wants to be a free and viable state of self-determination. End of story. The Zionists wanted theirs and got theirs. Palestinians wanted theirs and never got theirs.

And Israel wants every square inch of the land Palestine sits on too. Don't you know what "Eretz Israel" truly means? Dont you know why Israel defies international laws? Dont you know the real reason why Israel never defines its borders? Dont you know why Israel doesnt have a written constitution (hint? hint? it has to do with equality and equal rights!)?

[and then]

Ambush Bug, on 10 January 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

No the simply answer to all of this nonsense. Palestine wants to be a free and viable state of self-determination. End of story. The Zionists wanted theirs and got theirs. Palestinians wanted theirs and never got theirs.

And Israel wants every square inch of the land Palestine sits on too. Don't you know what "Eretz Israel" truly means? Dont you know why Israel defies international laws? Dont you know the real reason why Israel never defines its borders? Dont you know why Israel doesnt have a written constitution (hint? hint? it has to do with equality and equal rights!)?

Bug how does what you just said make what I said untrue?  IF everything you keep ranting about was true to the nth degree - it STILL doesn't matter because in the real world they will never regain a square inch of land until they either win it in battle (never) or until they become willing to actually negotiate and compromise in some way.  Folks like you holding your breath and having a hissy fit over the reality that exists now is pointless.  Except that it keeps irrational hopes alive in the Palestinians that some magical day they'll get it all.  Can you even bring yourself to admit that?  That Palestinians will never regain ALL THE LAND?  That's a serious question.

[B Jenkins]

and then, on 11 January 2013 - 03:50 AM, said:

Bug how does what you just said make what I said untrue?  IF everything you keep ranting about was true to the nth degree - it STILL doesn't matter because in the real world they will never regain a square inch of land until they either win it in battle (never) or until they become willing to actually negotiate and compromise in some way.  Folks like you holding your breath and having a hissy fit over the reality that exists now is pointless.  Except that it keeps irrational hopes alive in the Palestinians that some magical day they'll get it all.  Can you even bring yourself to admit that?  That Palestinians will never regain ALL THE LAND?  That's a serious question.

But there is a lasting solution... let Palestine be a state and cease the Israeli occupation, dismantle the settlements, remove all the checkpoints, tear down the WALL, and open the Jew only roads to all Palestinian citizens.

Give the Palestinians some long overdue dignity, a home, and FREEDOM.